Pearl Harbor Alerted (Full Version)

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spence -> Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/9/2005 6:57:33 PM)

Just for S&G I recently turned off 1st Turn Surprise/Historical First Turn just to see what happens at PH if one assumes the US forces are alerted in the nick of time.
I made assumptions that the warning arrives too late (say about 0100-0200 local) for the fleet to get up steam and clear the harbor (so they go to GQ and set Zebra but remain moored) but in time for air searches to be planned and assigned and a/c to be fuelled and armed for antiship missions and arrayed for immediate launch when a target is spotted. I did the following in the pre-turn 1 turn. I brought all PH squadrons to full strength. All bombers were assigned anti-ship missions. All PBYs were assigned 100% search at 1000 ft. I assigned all fighters to Escort with 40-60% CAP and stacked the CAP at 15000-20000 ft.

Sorry, dont have an AAR. Here's a summary of what happened:
The US CAP consisted of about 55 fighters total. It was virtually wiped out but did break through the Zeros to knock down approx 15 Val/Kates and damage an equal number. It also killed about 6-7 Zeros.
The flak at PH killed 5 Zeros and about 10 Val/Kates.

The US launched a morning raid against the KB with 3 B-17s, 13 B-18s, 5 A-20s and 11 SBDs escorted by around 35 fighters of all types. The IJN CAP was 45 Zeros. The CAP killed 25 fighters of all types plus all the A-20s, 2 B-18s and 2 SBDs. The B-18s aborted before bombing. Flak killed another 2 SBs and damaged all the other attacking bombers. Two hits with 1000 lb bombs were scored on Hiryu. The US fighters killed 7 Zeros and damaged a few more. The US bombers damaged a couple of Zeros.

A very weak US raid in the afternoon resulted in the loss of 2 fighters and 1 B-17 killed and all remaining bombers damaged (2 B-17s and 3 SBDs). One Zero was damaged and no hits scored on any IJN ship.

Ironically the raid on PH produced results for the IJN much better than I have previously experienced: 2 BBs, 1 CA and 1 DD sunk, all remaining BBs, a CL and 10 other ships with damage in the 40+s. The airfield was out of action on Dec 8th.
I did sortie some surface action TFs for the 8th and the KB, which had backed off due North to a range of 4 hexes from PH launched several 50+ bomber strikes with predictable results (I only actually ran an 8 Dec turn cause I was allowing the AI to play the IJN and I wanted to get some idea of how badly/mildly they were hurt on Dec 7th).

Also interesting was that the experience levels of every single US squadron/group at PH was 70+ on Dec 8th (excluding PBYs which I didn't check). The numbers of US a/c in the various sqdrns were depleted but not terribly so. Given an operable airfield on the 9th a credible anti-ship strike might have been put together.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/9/2005 7:20:52 PM)

Interesting test. Thanks Spence.

The US attack even scoring 2 hits on the Hiryu sounds like a better than expected turn. Given that it sounds like the only planes to attack were 1 b-17 and 11 sbd.



Honda -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/9/2005 8:44:04 PM)

A few months ago, I saw a documentery on Discovery, I think, about a what-if scenario regarding PH. The idea was to see what would've happened if USN took the warning before the daybreak (and took it seriously) and came out to play. The conclusions were that it would've been a catstrophe for USN. The main reasons were:
1. The old doctrine that BB was the queen of the seas was still hard-coded in Kimmel and BB fleet would have probably been sent out to engage the KB
2. After being hit, US vessels would suffer much more from flooding and after sinking they would stay sunk on the ocean floor
3. USN AAA was not as deadly as later in the war

The "panel" consisted of some 10 experts, most of them veterans. This wasn't unanimous, however, one vet was very dissapointed and insisted the Japs air powere would have been blown to pieces with very little damage to US forces and that the Kates (which were that main argument of Jap superiority in the imagined conflict) were in fact crap-mobiles made of paper and their torpedos couldn't hurt US BBs [X(]
He didn't stand down, and insisted he was right till the end.
This was all from memory so don't resent if I missed something. I think I got the gist of it, though. WitP and WitP related reality have their own way of blending together very easily. [;)]



Admiral DadMan -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/9/2005 9:39:52 PM)

You got it right, Honda.

It aired again a week or so ago. They played it out on a war-game board. The BBs sortied and were summarily sunk. Included on each team were retired Admirals- men with knowledge of naval warfare tactics.

The guy you referred to was a BB fanboy.[:-]



Feinder -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/9/2005 10:09:05 PM)

You know what's funny....

I was in my office doing turns for WitP when that came on. My wife was out in the family room and came in to tell me, "There's this show on Pearl Harbor on, I think you'll like it." I gave her one of those grunting noises that translates into, "I'm saving the free world from Japanese agresssion. I'll be in, in 5 minutes..."

Me - "What did I miss?"
She - "The whole thing."

Of couse, by the time I emerged, the show was over, and she was already halfway thru the next episode of CSI.

But she had actually watched the entire show.

Me - What did they say?
She - We would have gotten clobbered.
Me - All the battleships sail out and get sunk in deep water, instead of the mud, right?
She - Yep.
Me - And Zero bonus wiped out any counter-strike by Pearl Harbor's air, right?
She - What?
Me - Nevermind.

But yes, my wife finds those shows interesting (aren't I lucky [8D]).

-F-



Honda -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/9/2005 11:07:15 PM)

OMG! You mentioned the Zero bonus[X(] From now on refer to as The Unmentionable One or we'll get flamed[;)]
GG with the wife. My future doesn't seem to be bending in that direction, but then again, I don't need her for WitP discussions. I have Pauk for that[:D]



waynec -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/10/2005 12:24:23 AM)

i mentioned this last year and will toot my own horn again this year. i wrote an alternate history of the attack on pearl harbor for a writing class. article. i agree almost anything other than what happen would have been worse.

[image]local://upfiles/6704/6BB3C1F715264E1E97BFEB1A96AAE338.jpg[/image]



Mike Scholl -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/10/2005 4:23:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

A few months ago, I saw a documentery on Discovery, I think, about a what-if scenario regarding PH. The idea was to see what would've happened if USN took the warning before the daybreak (and took it seriously) and came out to play. The conclusions were that it would've been a catstrophe for USN. The main reasons were:
1. The old doctrine that BB was the queen of the seas was still hard-coded in Kimmel and BB fleet would have probably been sent out to engage the KB
2. After being hit, US vessels would suffer much more from flooding and after sinking they would stay sunk on the ocean floor
3. USN AAA was not as deadly as later in the war

The "panel" consisted of some 10 experts, most of them veterans. This wasn't unanimous, however, one vet was very dissapointed and insisted the Japs air powere would have been blown to pieces with very little damage to US forces and that the Kates (which were that main argument of Jap superiority in the imagined conflict) were in fact crap-mobiles made of paper and their torpedos couldn't hurt US BBs [X(]
He didn't stand down, and insisted he was right till the end.
This was all from memory so don't resent if I missed something. I think I got the gist of it, though. WitP and WitP related reality have their own way of blending together very easily. [;)]


One HUGE error in this speculation. There is no way in Hell the US fleet could have gotten steam up to sortie even based on the earliest "sub spot" warning. So the Fleet was still going to be in PH when the Japanese airstrike arrived. The biggest difference in the units of the Fleet would be in the state of rediness. Guns fully manned and ammunition ready, all water-tight doors closed, Damage Control manned, that sort of thing. Most of the difference would be in the Ground and Air Units. Even historically, the second wave of the Japanese attack sufferred much higher casualties than the first---and that was only with what preparation could be accomplished among the chaos of the first waves assult. Even one full hour of warning would have given the Japanese a much more formidible problem.

Oddly, this was much more like what the Japanese themselves expected. Their own loss predictions were as high as 50% of the A/C involved, and possibly a carrier or two as well. They still would view this as a success if the Pacific Fleet could be hobbled. And the fleet would, in all likelyhood, still have been "crippled by the assult. Oklahoma might not have turned turlle were she better prepared, but plenty off damage would still have occurred. The "victory" would have been less, and the losses greater, but the result in the short term wouldn't have changed a lot. The Japanese losses would have come back to haunt them a few months later when the carrier contests began, and a weakened Kido Butai had to face the US counter-moves.



Honda -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/10/2005 12:20:02 PM)

Oh, why even bother[8|]
The conclusions were done by EXPERTS in the field. What makes them EXPERTS in the field is beyond me but it sure seems quite enough to put them in a documentary. The whole story was "what if the USN came out to play", not "what do you think wether it will come out and play". Make your own documantary. Turns out every ship ever sunk by Japs was a fluke. Was it?



Mike Scholl -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/10/2005 1:39:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

Oh, why even bother[8|]
The conclusions were done by EXPERTS in the field. What makes them EXPERTS in the field is beyond me but it sure seems quite enough to put them in a documentary. The whole story was "what if the USN came out to play", not "what do you think wether it will come out and play". Make your own documantary. Turns out every ship ever sunk by Japs was a fluke. Was it?


Calling someone an EXPERT does not make them one. The number of "experts" and "professors" I've seen spouting off on the History Channel who don't know their ass from their elbow about what they are talking about would stretch around an average-sized house. I've never been able to fathom why as soon as the words "what if" appear, people start spouting non-sense. There are plenty of realistic "alternatives" to explore---but it is always the unrealistic and the absurd that get put on TV



Distiller -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/10/2005 1:46:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

A few months ago, I saw a documentery on Discovery, I think, about a what-if scenario regarding PH. The idea was to see what would've happened if USN took the warning before the daybreak (and took it seriously) and came out to play. The conclusions were that it would've been a catstrophe for USN. The main reasons were:
1. The old doctrine that BB was the queen of the seas was still hard-coded in Kimmel and BB fleet would have probably been sent out to engage the KB
2. After being hit, US vessels would suffer much more from flooding and after sinking they would stay sunk on the ocean floor
3. USN AAA was not as deadly as later in the war
..




there are 2 things to consider:

some Kates carried 800kg bombs instead of torps, which have to be dropped from 9000ft or more to reliably penetrate, the rest had torps modified for shallow waters ie. not very good vs maneuvering targets. level bombing against moving targets sucks, as you know and Vals can't hurt BB armor. that's IF they can find the fleet.



Honda -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/10/2005 2:04:48 PM)

I give up. It's pointless.



Cpt Sherwood -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/10/2005 2:35:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: waynec

i mentioned this last year and will toot mu own horn again this year. i wrote an alternate history of the attack on pearl harbor for a writing class. article. i agree almost anything other than what happen would have been worse.

[image]local://upfiles/6704/6BB3C1F715264E1E97BFEB1A96AAE338.jpg[/image]


Toot away, excellent read, thank you.



Terminus -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/10/2005 2:36:03 PM)

Ayup, really well done...



Bobthehatchit -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/10/2005 2:58:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Just for S&G I recently turned off 1st Turn Surprise/Historical First Turn just to see what happens at PH if one assumes the US forces are alerted in the nick of time.
I made assumptions that the warning arrives too late (say about 0100-0200 local) for the fleet to get up steam and clear the harbor (so they go to GQ and set Zebra but remain moored) but in time for air searches to be planned and assigned and a/c to be fuelled and armed for antiship missions and arrayed for immediate launch when a target is spotted. I did the following in the pre-turn 1 turn. I brought all PH squadrons to full strength. All bombers were assigned anti-ship missions. All PBYs were assigned 100% search at 1000 ft. I assigned all fighters to Escort with 40-60% CAP and stacked the CAP at 15000-20000 ft.

Sorry, dont have an AAR. Here's a summary of what happened:
The US CAP consisted of about 55 fighters total. It was virtually wiped out but did break through the Zeros to knock down approx 15 Val/Kates and damage an equal number. It also killed about 6-7 Zeros.
The flak at PH killed 5 Zeros and about 10 Val/Kates.

The US launched a morning raid against the KB with 3 B-17s, 13 B-18s, 5 A-20s and 11 SBDs escorted by around 35 fighters of all types. The IJN CAP was 45 Zeros. The CAP killed 25 fighters of all types plus all the A-20s, 2 B-18s and 2 SBDs. The B-18s aborted before bombing. Flak killed another 2 SBs and damaged all the other attacking bombers. Two hits with 1000 lb bombs were scored on Hiryu. The US fighters killed 7 Zeros and damaged a few more. The US bombers damaged a couple of Zeros.

A very weak US raid in the afternoon resulted in the loss of 2 fighters and 1 B-17 killed and all remaining bombers damaged (2 B-17s and 3 SBDs). One Zero was damaged and no hits scored on any IJN ship.

Ironically the raid on PH produced results for the IJN much better than I have previously experienced: 2 BBs, 1 CA and 1 DD sunk, all remaining BBs, a CL and 10 other ships with damage in the 40+s. The airfield was out of action on Dec 8th.
I did sortie some surface action TFs for the 8th and the KB, which had backed off due North to a range of 4 hexes from PH launched several 50+ bomber strikes with predictable results (I only actually ran an 8 Dec turn cause I was allowing the AI to play the IJN and I wanted to get some idea of how badly/mildly they were hurt on Dec 7th).

Also interesting was that the experience levels of every single US squadron/group at PH was 70+ on Dec 8th (excluding PBYs which I didn't check). The numbers of US a/c in the various sqdrns were depleted but not terribly so. Given an operable airfield on the 9th a credible anti-ship strike might have been put together.



Results sound about right, i the end they were still hit by a massive well co-ordinated and well timed strike, they just lost more aircraft in the attack.



spence -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/10/2005 3:48:19 PM)

quote:

Results sound about right, i the end they were still hit by a massive well co-ordinated and well timed strike, they just lost more aircraft in the attack.


I ran it a few more times. The number of IJN bombers that get shot down is pretty consistent no matter what CAP settings are used...basically almost all bomber losses appear to be from flak (roughly 10-12 each of Vals and Kates). The number of Zeros lost varies somewhat. The number of hits on IJN ships seems pretty consistent as well with only one run (of 4) producing more than 2 hits (3 hits last time thru). In the last run thru I sortied the BBs and cruisers in 2 TFs to the hex where KB would be. I also sent a big PT TF to that hex and put a sub there. The sub torpedoed a Jap DD. The PTs didn't find anything. One BB TF engaged KB for one round scoring no hits (even though the Akagi and Hiryu had both suffered AMMO EXPLOSIONs due to air attack. That BB TF then went on to heavily damage the previously torpedoed DD. The second BB TF missed the KB (which had apparently retreated one hex to the NE) but then found the crippled DD and polished it off.

In the other 3 run throughs of the PH attack where the BBs stayed put no BBs were sunk and damage was usually in the 50-60s on 1 or 2 BBs with 1-2 BBs suffering minimal (sys<10) and the others strung out in between.



Rob Brennan UK -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/10/2005 5:17:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: waynec

i mentioned this last year and will toot mu own horn again this year. i wrote an alternate history of the attack on pearl harbor for a writing class. article. i agree almost anything other than what happen would have been worse.

[image]local://upfiles/6704/6BB3C1F715264E1E97BFEB1A96AAE338.jpg[/image]



I would reccomend this to anyone, a very good read and well researched. [&o]

Thank you Wayne .. nice piece of work there.




TSCofield -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/11/2005 4:09:21 AM)

They replayed that show. The guy who insisted the USN would have done well was a retired Admiral. He used the US losses in torpedo bombers as Midway as his rationalle for why the fleet would have gotten into range and would have done some damage to the KB. Despite the arguments of the other folks that the Repulse and the Prince of Wales were sunk (and quickly) without fighter protection he insisted that the US Pacific Fleet would have been relatively safe against the IJN. I am suprised a modern US Admiral would have this old fashioned battleship mentality.

I thought his logic was flawed for a couple of reasons. The Devastators of the USN flew against the Japanese essentially without fighter protection. At least 50 percent of them were picked off even before they had a chance to launch planes. The rest were disorganized. Still several of them did launch torpedoes against the KB, it was partially luck on the Japanese, probably poor launch routines by rattled US pilots and faulty torpedoes that kept the IJN from being hit.

The USN would have had little by way of air support, would have had no carriers nearby (Enterprise would have been closest), and would have flown against 6 fleet carriers with some of the best pilots in the world. BBs in 1941 had nowhere near the AA levels that they did in 1943-1945. It would have been a slaughter, of US planes. If that Admiral tried using the example of US BBs providing AA protection to the fleet he needs to be reminded of that.




Oldsweat -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/12/2005 11:51:15 PM)

Larry Bond and Chris Carlson, the two guys who ran the game, have fairly decent credentials. In addition to both having been naval officers, Larry in surface warfare and later intelligence, Chris is a former submariner, they are both very active in wargaming. They have produced the Harpoon series of games as well as a number of other simulations that have been well received (Harpoon is good enough that I used it as a training tool when I was on active duty).
As far as the admiral's comments go, I would have to side with the Park Service historian, sending the battleforce after the KB would have been a bad idea. The survivors of the Pearl Harbor probably made a more important contribution as the trained nuclei of the crews of other ships than they would have aboard the sunken BBs and most certainly the lost of so many experienced sailors had the fleet been sunk at sea would have delayed the end of the war. I tend to side with the conclusion of the show, Pearl harbor, while painful, was not as bad for the US as it feels like. The carriers, the submarines, the repair and supply facilities did after all survive. The interview with the army lt who got the radar report of the inbound raid was interesting. First time I've ever heard his side and I no longer view him in a negative light, especially considering the lack of a gci (ground controlled intercept) center as is common now for the coordination of fighters and interceptors. I suspect the lessons the US derived from the attack, and other early air battles, probably spurred the development of CIC/GCI/CATC and other systems that made for the increasingly efficient and effective deployment of US aircraft later in the war.



Kwik E Mart -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/13/2005 12:07:05 AM)

this is all very interesting, but now let's imagine a Nimitz class nuclear air craft carrier somehow teleports back to 1941 "Philadelphia Experiment" style and.....er.....nevermind [8|]



Oldsweat -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/13/2005 12:16:29 AM)

True, an Alpha strike would have seriously dented the KB's day.



Honda -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/13/2005 1:38:29 AM)

PH, the way it happened, was the best possible scenario for the US. Moderate casulties, mostly short term damage, recoverable ships etc...Yes, it was a military defeat, but what more can you expect if you get b!tch slapped on the first day of the war. Overalll, PH was a sound political victory. Exactly what Roosevelt needed (and Churchill above all). I know that the has been may speculation on wether PH was given a "favourable wind" from the White House, but the context screems of such a possibilty. I don't think mobilizing the US public opinion for the war would have been 20% of success it was guaranteed after PH. Americans didn't want to go to war in '41 nor would they have wanted in '42 were it not for PH. From WitP viewpoit, it would be interesting to make an ahistorical scenario without PH and US involvement. I think it was already discussed on the board some time ago, but don't remember the general conclusion.
Good night[>:]



YankeeAirRat -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/13/2005 3:33:18 AM)

The other big thing that most people miss when talking about PH is the fact that Nagumo didn't follow through with yet another strike that day. The number of alternative fiction that has been written on that missing "Third Strike" is probably enough to rival the alternative's that have been written about Gettysburg and the missing order.
If he had ordered 3rd strike the most likely targets would of been the Submarine docks and most likely the Fleet oil reserves. Which with the oil reserves destroyed or severly damaged it would of taken about another year before the intaitive would of been gained, since the oil would of had to been pumped from the fields and ports in Texas, Oklahoma, and other places over land to San Degio and Long Beach with onloading to then to tankers and AO's to be transported to PH and other places. On top of that the 3 fleet carriers would of had to retire all the way back to San Degio or Bremerton to replenish.



spence -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/13/2005 3:38:37 AM)

I always thought that the idea of 20 kt BBs sortieing to pursue the KB was a pretty bad idea. My little experiment was mostly to see if relying on flak and having a CAP would (according to the model) result in significantly reduced damage to the fleet/airfields or increased damage to the attacking IJN a/c.
Other than somewhat increased losses to strafing Zeros (didn't mess with initial IJN settings) the number of attacking a/c shot down remained pretty much the same as I would expect with 1st Turn Surprise/Historical 1st Turn ON.
The damage to the fleet was slightly decreased but not strikingly so. I've started 3 campaigns as Allies and either I'm really lucky/opponents unlucky or maybe there should have been a PH bombing bonus or something. I've only had 1 BB sunk in all 3 starts by the first strike and damage to the BBs seems to typically be between 80 - 30 sys for the other BBs.

The last run through (with the fleet sortieing and finding KB) was just to see what the best possible result might have been. And although the KB had two CVs which had suffered AMMO/FUEL EXPLOSIONS and therefore had to have been slowed significantly the KB escaped the surface combat. Perhaps those two CVs wouldn't have been able launch strikes the next day but there were still 160 attack planes available for the next day and I'm pretty sure it would have been a really long and BAD day for the USN.



Mike Scholl -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/13/2005 5:27:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: YankeeAirRat

The other big thing that most people miss when talking about PH is the fact that Nagumo didn't follow through with yet another strike that day. The number of alternative fiction that has been written on that missing "Third Strike" is probably enough to rival the alternative's that have been written about Gettysburg and the missing order.
If he had ordered 3rd strike the most likely targets would of been the Submarine docks and most likely the Fleet oil reserves. Which with the oil reserves destroyed or severly damaged it would of taken about another year before the intaitive would of been gained, since the oil would of had to been pumped from the fields and ports in Texas, Oklahoma, and other places over land to San Degio and Long Beach with onloading to then to tankers and AO's to be transported to PH and other places. On top of that the 3 fleet carriers would of had to retire all the way back to San Degio or Bremerton to replenish.


That was SHARPSBURG/ANTIETAM where "Special Order #191" was misplaced, not GETTYSBURG. But you are right about the "third strike". Now there's a "what if" that doesn't require any wild assumptions.
I think it was even in Nagumo's orders. And earlier discussion on this forum showed that the oil tank farms wouldn't have been the easy target many assume, but there were certainly possibilities there. I've always wanted an option to target the support ships instead of the BB's. They're no threat without DD's to escort them and Cruisers to scout. And oilers to feed the bunkers. It's an alternative I wish the game would allow me to explore.



rhohltjr -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/13/2005 6:48:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
One HUGE error in this speculation. There is no way in Hell the US fleet could have gotten steam up to sortie even based on the earliest "sub spot" warning. So the Fleet was still going to be in PH when the Japanese airstrike arrived. The biggest difference in the units of the Fleet would be in the state of rediness. Guns fully manned and ammunition ready, all water-tight doors closed, Damage Control manned, that sort of thing. Most of the difference would be in the Ground and Air Units. Even historically, the second wave of the Japanese attack sufferred much higher casualties than the first---and that was only with what preparation could be accomplished among the chaos of the first waves assult. Even one full hour of warning would have given the Japanese a much more formidible problem.


Mike, how long would it have taken to get the big ships steam up? Given an hour warning and 20/20 hindsight [:D] could you have cut the BBs mooring lines and let them drift while raising steam? This might have made the Vals/Kates go around several times to execute a bombing run. Could you have pulled a few destroyers around to act as a screen for the BBs? At least force the Kates to work hard to drop torps in that small stretch of harbor water? [&:]



rtrapasso -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/13/2005 6:54:27 PM)

quote:

Mike, how long would it have taken to get the big ships steam up?


Didn't Nevada get steam up? (in record time maybe) - but she did try to make for open sea (unsuccessfully).

Probably the Arizona wouldn't have gotten hit with the AP bombs like it did (the Japanese attack plan for these pretty much depended on a stationary target.)



Skyros -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/13/2005 7:01:38 PM)

The Neveda was in the process of switching over boilers that were used to provide power to the ship in port. So she had two already fired up which allowed her to start moving. I beleive I read somewher that it could take up to 4 or 5 hours to get up steam to move. That may be what the manual called for, but in an emergency and when a lot of spead was not needed they could do it faster. I do not think they could have sortied in an hour, just marshalling all of the ships out of pearl in an orderly fashion would have taken some time.



rhohltjr -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/14/2005 4:12:54 PM)

What about the smaller ships? How fast could WW2 era CA & CL & DDs get steam up?




Gem35 -> RE: Pearl Harbor Alerted (12/14/2005 4:46:49 PM)

Sure, the white house and the japs had a secret agreement to let the short squinty eyed men fly in and hand us our own ass. I saw it on the history Channel , that whatcha-call -it show...Unsolved history or was it Conspiracy? [8|] Buy this and the Oswald show and save $10 !!! [;)]



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