utter guerilla stupidity (Full Version)

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gdpsnake -> utter guerilla stupidity (12/15/2005 1:20:13 AM)

OK,
Now Spain has 54 guerillas, 4 militia and 1 inf left. They only have four provinces left, Sicily, Taranto (under Seige), Majorca and Grenada (under seige).

The seiges WILL NOT WORK anymore. In Granada, Spain has 1 militia at 0.2 strength and every seige result is a hold out and loss of only 20 men. This has happened for 10 turns now. They should have been gone long ago. I assume that this is because Spain would not then have any home provinces left?

Also, this seige thing is now happening in Taranto where he has 1 militia in the city - can't take that either.

I've had his capitol for over a year as well as every other Spainish province. I have 3 diplomats reducing the Spanish every turn YET the Spanish National morale keeps climbing! I assume this is a bug because there is nothing 'good' happening for them.

UPDATE: The next turn Spain somehow built an additional 49 guerillas in their capitol province. What kind of BS is this?!

Why are the guerilla routines so absurd?

Why won't Spain surrender?

UPDATE: I moved into the 49 guerilla army with a corps figuring when they routed from the battle they would all die (Surrounded with men all around in the adjacent provinces) but to my dismay, the game crashed trying to load the detailed battle. Obviously, the machine finally figured out this whole guerilla absurdity is just too stupid to play too......



jimwinsor -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/15/2005 1:30:40 AM)

Maybe you declared "total war" on the Spanish by accident?

That would explain 1) the unprecedented (in my experience) guerilla activity; 2) the Spanish not surrendering (because: they can't).

I dunno tho...I'm kinda winging it with this theory 'cause I've never declared a "total war" in COG yet. Anyone second this theory?

54 guerillas, sheesh, you have better patience than I...I woulda started a new game myself! :o)



gdpsnake -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/15/2005 1:37:50 AM)

What is total war? Never heard of it or are you just kidding.

Yes, every man woman and child in Spain is a guerilla. I'm sure there are more than the entire 1804 population of Spain and they keep coming.

Did I also mention I have over 1,000,000 Spanish POW's as well?



jimwinsor -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/15/2005 1:45:10 AM)

"Total War" is a special kind of war you can declare, see rulebook pg.65.

You can also track what is affecting a county's national morale and glory from the Country Details screen too. See what is making the Spanish so resiliant...



gdpsnake -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/15/2005 2:24:35 AM)

No, I'm absolutely certain I did not declare total war on them. Could the same result be had if they declared TW on me?

Can total war eliminate a nation?



Grand_Armee -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/15/2005 2:55:26 AM)

I declared total war on Spain once. Guerrillas swarmed Europe, laying siege to my cities hundreds of miles away. I couldn't get the Don's to surrender no matter what I did...so I ended that game.



jimwinsor -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/15/2005 3:50:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gdpsnake

No, I'm absolutely certain I did not declare total war on them. Could the same result be had if they declared TW on me?

Can total war eliminate a nation?


Naw, if they declared TW on you, you would have a zillion guerillas and and not be able to surrender.

Perhaps another AI nation declared TW on Spain? Hmmm. Never happened in one of my games, but ya never know.

TW is supposed to be the only way to conquer and annex an enemy nation capital (ie, yes, therefore, totally eliminate that nation).

You are supposed to get a big morale minus when you declare TW. Maybe scroll through the morale records of all the nations, and see if that occured for someone? A bit of a hassle but it may solve the mystery.



TexHorns -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/15/2005 4:06:27 AM)

gdp, I am clueless as to why you 1) haven't started a new game and 2) downloaded the 1.216 beta patch.



jimwinsor -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/15/2005 4:41:18 AM)

Eh, at this point might as well wait for the full 1.2 patch, due out soon. Then again...hmmm.

Although he may well want to start anew. Interesting game he's got going though, as a case study in what happens when Total War gets declared (if thats indeed the case).

There is a Glory penalty for declaring TW: -50. If you search through the Glory records of the countries at war with Spain you should be able to verify if anyone did the deed or not. Look for a big fat -50.



gdpsnake -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/15/2005 5:34:21 PM)

I didn't see TW declared but interestingly, Spain keeps getting +150 morale for luxury consumption - I don't know how since I occupy every province but one.

I'm beginning to suspect that the 'smaller' a nation's resources become, the higher the bonus. In other words, a major nation which gets reduced as I've reduced Spain causes some instability in the way the routines calculate resource income and glory/morale points. It should work out that the production and ability of Spain to even exist would cause it's implosion/surrender and inability to produce or even feed/support more guerillas.

Heck, I've got 2,000,000 prisoners now, the whole of Spain occupied but one province which can't be taken - I think this is a bug - 2000 militia can't survive a year long seige?! So even if it was somehow Total War, you can't make them ever give up.

Speaking of total war, how does one declare it? I can't find any button or method in the diplomacy screen.

As for why I won't give up and just start anew with 1.2.16, I want to figure out what the issues are so they can be addressed. And the 1.216 patch notes don't address any of this so it shouldn't make any difference on these issues.



jimwinsor -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/15/2005 6:25:43 PM)

There is no button for declaring TW. You do it by right clicking the country (or left clicking the country name on the Diplomacy screen) and bringing up a beige diplomacy drop-down menu, with a list of options.



Russian Guard -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/15/2005 8:03:02 PM)


I had posted elsewhere regarding Spanish guerrillas, namely that with 1.2.16 I had not seen them as much as I had with 1.2.14.

Sadly, they have now appeared, all over Austria, as I have tried to pursue rightful Russian revenge against continued Spanish meddling with Russian affairs in Italy.

I haven't seen anything like what you describe, there are approx 10 Spanish guerrillas operating in northern Italy and Austria, and one even venturing into southern Russia.

I agree they should be limited to their home Nation provinces (or at least to Spanish-controlled provinces).

But let me pose this "devil's advocate" question:

Is this an acceptable fudge with historical roles for Spanish guerillas, in order to make Spain a bit harder to deal with (as an enemy) in the game?











jimwinsor -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/16/2005 12:41:47 AM)

Naw, its strains the game immersion feeling (ie, realism) too much to have guerillas running amok all over Europe like that.

If at all humanly possible...patch the game so guerillas are geographically constrained to one's original home country territory. And if that sort of change is not possible...patch (or mod) guerillas out of the game.



TexHorns -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/16/2005 7:44:40 PM)

My France has been at war with Spain now for over a year. There are two guerilla units outside Spain and I now occupy 4 Spanish home provinces, including the capital. There are a couple of more guerillas in Spain. I have faced numerous Spanish armies, but none made up soley of guerillas. So I am not experiencing the guerilla cancer that gdp has.

Now, when I attacked Spain initially I attcked only one province. The border was left open for a couple of turns, hence some guerillas and regular divisions moved in to France. Shortly thereafter I sealed the border with another army and have forced any other Spanish divisions, guerilla or other to march through a province with a large French army in order to get out of Spain. I don't know if that has anything to with it or not. I also have not pillaged while in Spain. That may also have kept the guerillas from forming. Eventhough I occupy Castille, Spain has not surrendered. Will be intersting to see if the longer the occupation lasts if more guerillas will show up.

I don't disagree with Jim and gdp about the historical use of guerillas, I just don't see it as a game breaker. At least not the way my game has gone. Of course I would feel differently if I was experiencing what gdp is.



Grand_Armee -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/16/2005 9:26:00 PM)

Texhorns,
The killer occurs when Spanish guerillas are going to your territory from a country that Spain has surrendered to, or has surrendered to Spain. And the Guerillas generated in other captured Spanish states like some of those in Italy.



jimwinsor -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/16/2005 9:45:00 PM)

Part of the problem may also be Total War. TW seems to kick guerilla activity up to crazy levels. I've never had a TW in any of my games, so that is probably why I have never had a huge guerilla problem myself.

Maybe a solution is to do away with TW? Is TW really that necessary a game concept? If TW turns out to be more a game breaker than its worth, maybe TW should be removed.

The only real historical example of a "Total War" in this period, I guess you could say, was France vs Spain...but really, had Napoleon succeeded in replacing the Spanish Bourbons with his brother, what would have been the practical effect? A long term alliance + defense pact? Anything else? Not really. The same sort of stuff you can get from a non-TW peace treaty, when you think about it.

So TW...who needs it?



Russian Guard -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/16/2005 11:04:22 PM)


Actually the Total War concept was used by the Allies against France in 1814 and again in 1815 after Waterloo. Napoleon tried repeatedly to negotiate a Peace in both these timeframes but was told that nothing less than complete French surrender, with Napoleon's abdication, would suffice.

I have not tried Total War and I have doubts about it's value, though. I have won (and lost) a number of campaign games, and Total War played no part in my ability to win (or cause for losing).

It's possible the TW is a player-to-player concept; that is, more useful if you actually have 8 players struggling in this game. That's how you'd actually eliminate a player.









Mus -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/17/2005 8:04:49 AM)

If Total War allows you to completely occupy an enemy nation or even protectorize it and remove it as an independent power from the game forever I would say that would be a pretty powerful tool.



jimwinsor -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/17/2005 12:41:06 PM)

Yeah thats what TW in COG basically allows you do to, a complete annexation of another nation. Which I would argue was not really the case with Europe vs France 1814 or 1815...or even France vs Spain...that was more regime change...which non-TW handles nicely enough with the Remove Leader peace option, Enforced Alliance option, and such.

Considering the guerilla nightmare you get, plus a country you have to siege *every* province to defeat...I'd say TW is rarely a good idea anyways. Especially in a game where you really win by pulling ahead in glory, and not vast territory per se.



Hard Sarge -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/18/2005 7:22:50 PM)

Man, you guys got me totally confused with this post

TW does not make guerillas (as far as I know) those come from the altude of the people (how is your court levels in your lands, or the lands you control)

those should not be Spainish guerillas to fight you, those should be guerillas that are at war with Spain ????

TW is for when you have a Nation Crippled and want to take it out, I took out Russia, Sweden and Prussia and never seen a guerilla from them

can you post some pic's of these guys, all of my games and tests, I have never seen anything like you are posting

okay went in my current game, Prussia has two provinces left, so I declared TW on them, a few turns later, no Prussia



[image]local://upfiles/1438/5841897ACE55431D910C6049D7914EC7.jpg[/image]



Russian Guard -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (12/19/2005 4:39:49 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Which I would argue was not really the case with Europe vs France 1814 or 1815...or even France vs Spain...that was more regime change...which non-TW handles nicely enough with the Remove Leader peace option, Enforced Alliance option, and such.



Hmmm...the rules speak to TW as being the declaration of another Government as null and void (paraphrased), which is exactly what the Allies did to Nappy in 1814 and 1815. He tried to negotiate a deal that would leave him in power, no deal. He had to go, and the Bourbons had to be restored.

Of course the more significant issue here is the impact TW has on game mechanics.







Hard Sarge -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (1/7/2006 1:51:35 PM)

Hi Guys
okay, I think I now see what you have been reporting

background, close to end of game, all of Spain is still under Spainish control

I declare Total War on Spain and go to town

once I almost own all of Spain, they start to show up, in ones and twos, most as they are popping up right under a Army already there, just go to battle and are taken POW, others, slip out though the border

I ended up winning the game on points, but keep the game going to see how bad it could become

overall, I think it could get pretty bad !

I got a number of hunting parties running around Europe chasing them down before they can form groups large enough to take over provinces

work around seems to be not to go to Total war with Spain, until you can take them out, fast (total war, you need to control all of there provinces at once, and they just give up)

(my mistake, I didn't notice the Spainish Island)

save and report turned into Eric




ericbabe -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (1/10/2006 11:01:06 PM)

Total war does increase the rate of guerilla production, quite dramatically.

We are considering a number of ways to limit the effect of guerillas: current ideas are to limit their total number and make them very weak outside of home-territory (and make the AI not bring them out of home territory.)






Hard Sarge -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (1/11/2006 12:24:15 AM)

Hi Eric
I am talking about 150 Div's of POW's, maybe another 50-75 Div's running around free that were not grouped large enough to start battles

plus I think there is a hassle with the idea of, the AI sending them out of home, they were being fought out of home

I had the border of Spain closed off, there one province in Italy, I had surrounded, they show up, lose a battle and slide to the next province, then either avoid a battle or get into one and slide over to the next province, over and over

the ones that got away, I just kept a Lancer or Cav unit with them, to keep them honest


which to be fair, I did set that war up on purpose, to see if I could make it do the Guerilla thing, i would not of normally of fought the war that way

and for what it is worth, I did not/have not seen this with Russia, Prussia, Aus or Sweden, same game I went to total war with all of them




Khornish -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (1/11/2006 12:48:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ericbabe

Total war does increase the rate of guerilla production, quite dramatically.

We are considering a number of ways to limit the effect of guerillas: current ideas are to limit their total number and make them very weak outside of home-territory (and make the AI not bring them out of home territory.)




I'd be happy if the only change is in having the AI not bring them out of home territory. Guerilla's did well because they were fairly local, if not immediately local, to the region over which they operated. They had some, if not a lot, of support from the local populace which they were generally a part of. We all know this, but it appears the AI is ignorant of the dynamic involved.

I just don't see how Spanish guerillas would have been effective operating in Silesia or Grodno, but as it stands now, they are just as good as if they were in Spain.



nachinus -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (1/11/2006 12:14:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Khornish

I'd be happy if the only change is in having the AI not bring them out of home territory. Guerilla's did well because they were fairly local, if not immediately local, to the region over which they operated. They had some, if not a lot, of support from the local populace which they were generally a part of. We all know this, but it appears the AI is ignorant of the dynamic involved.

I just don't see how Spanish guerillas would have been effective operating in Silesia or Grodno, but as it stands now, they are just as good as if they were in Spain.



Very true. I totally agree. And I'd say that not only for the AI. IMHO, Guerrillas should be locked in national territory for all players. I'd say that they should only be able to exit national territory as a result of a retreat, and with severe penalties and losses. If that limitation is not possible code-wise, then the idea of making them very weak outside homeland is good, but then the AI should be taught not to use them that way.



Khornish -> RE: utter guerilla stupidity (1/11/2006 3:25:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nachinus


Very true. I totally agree. And I'd say that not only for the AI. IMHO, Guerrillas should be locked in national territory for all players. I'd say that they should only be able to exit national territory as a result of a retreat, and with severe penalties and losses. If that limitation is not possible code-wise, then the idea of making them very weak outside homeland is good, but then the AI should be taught not to use them that way.


Well, my intention is that they are never allowed to leave their home provinces under any circumstances, even if forced to retreat. I'd rather them be disbursed/disbanded than allow them to exit their home territory.

To my understanding of the historical record, a band under so much pressure would disburse and try to reconstitute itself at a later date. So, if in this instance the band was removed, the mechanic of generating guerillas in the first place would likely recover the unit anyways.



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