Japanese Merchant Shipping (Full Version)

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Black Mamba 1942 -> Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/25/2005 1:37:38 PM)

I'm looking to create a new campaign scenario.

Anyone have any good historical links regarding the Japanese Merchant Marine in WWII?
I want to find a balance with the actual amount of tonnage used in the initial Japanese gains.
Then with tonnage returned to the war economy.

Also, how many transports did they really use at the start of the war?

I know it can't be as many as the stock scenarios have.[:D]
To me this over abundance of shipping included in the stock campaign scenarios promotes totally unrealistic Japanese strategies.
I'd like to find some balance.[;)]

Thanks for the help.



Brady -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 7:58:52 AM)


lol.......

The shiping they had at the start of the war is largely represented in the game in terms of gross toanage, the bottom numbers differ, they had more bottoms and the game kinda groops these hulls for ease of game play, the down side is you can sink more tonage by hitting fewer targets. As the war progresses the game shorts Japan on total tonage by a signafagant amount, I belave about 50% is not represented for the war on the whole. Also most all of the war time built merchant types are Not represented in the game. Another interesting absence (though understandable) is the Woden hulled fleat whcih represneted a considerable sea lift capacity it is entirely absent in terms of hulls and tonage from day one all the way to wars end. Someting else to consider is the ruthless Japanese tactic of squishing men and material into anykind of ship they had available to them.

Their are butloads of posts on this for the reading of if you search for Japense Merchants, or similar topics using the search function, and referance books to are given, at least for posts I made on the subject.



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 12:34:48 PM)

Thanks Brady.[;)]

Sampans, nows there's somthing I didn't consider.
They would've been mostly economic though.
Fishing and light cargo transportation.

Does this game simulate any inter island supply movement?



el cid again -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 1:52:37 PM)

quote:

Anyone have any good historical links regarding the Japanese Merchant Marine in WWII?
I want to find a balance with the actual amount of tonnage used in the initial Japanese gains.
Then with tonnage returned to the war economy.


You want to look at

The Japanese Merchant Marine in World War II
Mark P Parillo
Naval Institute Press
ISBN 1-55750-677-9



el cid again -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 1:55:09 PM)

quote:

Also, how many transports did they really use at the start of the war?

I know it can't be as many as the stock scenarios have.


The game is pretty good for ships - and lousy for little stuff - "sea trucks" - local craft of all kinds -

The problem is how the game economy works. Look for me to address this shortly. I have invented "supply sinks" that appear to work - and I want to change how ships are handled in a few ways- this will appear in RHS unless CHS adopts it first. It won't appear in the pending CHS release I fear. No time to implement!



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 2:28:13 PM)

Cool cid![8D]
Keep up the good work.

It's good to see there are some of us who want a more historical acting game.
If I want to conquer the world, I'll play "Risk".[:D]



rtrapasso -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 3:58:07 PM)

quote:

Does this game simulate any inter island supply movement?


A little bit. IIRC, if you have a size 3 port (or better) on both sides of a body of water (1 hex apart), then supplies flow through.



Brady -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 6:16:51 PM)

Here is a link(s) from an old post of mine on the subject:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=576855&mpage=1&key=Japanese%2CMerchants��

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=583223&mpage=1&key=woden%2Chulled򎙆

.............

Most all of the Shiping used during the war went to suply the war machine in one way or another, very little was actualy used for Civilian use, this is mentioned in the linked thread. regarding Woden hulled ship's, this is mentioned as well, most of the woden hulled ships built were not just intended for short trips around the home islands they traveled all over the Empire, this is mentioned as well in the linked thread(s). Thier is realy a lot of old stuff on this from debates that raged long ago. The Nut shell vershion is:

The game only represents about half the total tonage of merchants Japan had during the War, and far fewer Hull's than she realy had. If anything shes geting screwed.



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 6:30:20 PM)

The problem I see is that this shipping isn't used to supply the war economy.[;)]

Instead it allows the Japanese to launch "Normandy" style invasions, starting in 1941.
Sorry, that's just plain out BS.
Pardon my French.[;)]

These ships were used to move resources and material. Bottom line.



LargeSlowTarget -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 7:00:31 PM)

RHS?



Brady -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 7:02:31 PM)

See this link:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=580558&mpage=1&key=Japanese%2CMerchants򍾂


................

As noted by many before, if you use the tools you have in unhistoric ways your going to get unhistoric results. For example if you want to sink ships with B-24 or B-17's you can, whie historicaly this realy did not hapen the way it can in the game, yet it does..Historicaly Japan did not invade all over the way it could of, but in the game the player can chuse to do this, but it will cost him in the end.

The game alows for choices by the player, if he does not use his ship to move resources, he will be hurting in the long run, he neads his ships to move men particulary into the SRA early on, and then later he neas to move matrrial, the Japanese had a stockpile of raw material to last for 6 months to a year or so depending on the material(oil) in question, this was intended to tide them over untill the SRA was up a running, even the overly optimastic Japanese felt that the Oil from the SRA would not be flowing at pre war levals, actualy they did better at this than they hoped for.



CobraAus -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 9:17:53 PM)

quote:

Sampans, nows there's somthing I didn't consider.
They would've been mostly economic though.
Fishing and light cargo transportation.


Xmas Present Junk-Sampan

Cobra Aus

[image]local://upfiles/13770/228620F0DA6646559442C8417E11F575.jpg[/image]



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 9:52:39 PM)

Very cool Cobra.[;)]


Brady, for me it's more of a problem with the application of these ships.
Not total hull availability.

If the game modeled the civilian economy a little better,
these ships would be hauling cargo instead of assault troops.

I believe "the cid" is working on a revised economy.
Maybe we can get him to elaborate some on the RHS.[;)]



durnedwolf -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 10:45:07 PM)

BS is French? Dang it all - I thought for sure it was an American term. Our bulls have got to be bigger than French bulls - don't they? Especially our Texas bulls. A French bull might compare favorably to a California bull - them Cal-i-forn-ian folks are always trying to keep everything organic. Worried about meat bi-products and such. Nope, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure BS ain't no French phrase. I'll for sure as My Great Grandpappy - heck, he probably invented the phrase. [:D]



Brady -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/26/2005 11:55:09 PM)


From a post by me on the linked thread above:

..............................

Actualy this is not realy corect at all, a very small part of the Shiping in Civilan hands (about 3, million tons of shiping, at the beging of the war, and around 50% of the total throught the war.) actualy went to suport the population:

"" Coal transportation would occupy 1.8 million tons, while the movement of Aragrcutural products and suplies (450,000)and steal making materials(300,000) would absord the rest."

The Japanese Industrail complex ran on coal, and the raw materials for steal and other goods for industry were carried on the Civilian ships, the Merchant ships under military controle were responsable and almost soly occupied with the transport of men and material for the war effort...direct suport of the Military.

This is particulary ture of the Tankers, Alsomst all of the Oil transported to Japan was consumed soly by the military.

So in a nut shell the civilian Ships suplied the War Machine, the Miliary Merchant ships took the finished product to the front.

Or simply put, aprox. 1/14 th of the Total tonage of the merchant fleat was realy involved in moving goods soly for the Civilian population.

...........................

WiTP has so abstracted the Japanese ecenomy that we dont even have coal in the game, we have oil, interestingly Japan had a lot of Coal in Japan proper and a lot came from Manchuko and Korea.

At the very start of the war in WiTP things are not realy all that bad in terms of modeling merchant fleat, well depends on how anal you want to be, but as you move away from that time it gets very abstracted, espichaly given the fact mentioned above concerning just how many ships are not built for the game, entire classes of merchants totalying hundreds of ships and thousands of tons are absent, thats if you want to be anal about, its a game and a darn fun one, certainly I wish some aspects were better modled but by far and large it works prety good....I am waiting for WITP II, the Anal Cut....[:)]



el cid again -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 1:59:03 AM)

quote:

The game only represents about half the total tonage of merchants Japan had during the War, and far fewer Hull's than she realy had. If anything shes geting screwed.


Two points:

1) Japan never devoted enough ships to her economy - not as many as planned - and never imported enough - even though there was more than enough to import. To WIN Japan needs to give more ships to this purpose.

2) The game lets Japan (and the allies ) ride free on local supplies generated at resource centers in a grossly distorted way.


Another issue is that ships are way too range/fuel efficient, and ports vastly unlimited in cargo capacity. I can fix all but the latter.




el cid again -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 2:02:46 AM)

quote:

For example if you want to sink ships with B-24 or B-17's you can, whie historicaly this realy did not hapen the way it can in the game, yet it does

For a while we ran B-29s as minelayers - and stopped because USAAF didn't like that. But USSBS concluded it had won the war! No bomb. No invasion. The subs and mines did it alone! And USSBS was not dominated by the navy. Not sure it is ahistorical - except that in the game you CANNOT lay mines with airplanes!



Lt. Calley -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 2:51:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Not sure it is ahistorical - except that in the game you CANNOT lay mines with airplanes!


This is the first time that I'm reading that aerial minelaying as described in the manual is a sham. I've never gotten to 1943 yet so I haven't had a chance to try it. Can anyone else confirm that aerial minelaying is a sham?




rtrapasso -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 4:25:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lt. Calley

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Not sure it is ahistorical - except that in the game you CANNOT lay mines with airplanes!


This is the first time that I'm reading that aerial minelaying as described in the manual is a sham. I've never gotten to 1943 yet so I haven't had a chance to try it. Can anyone else confirm that aerial minelaying is a sham?





According to some AARs, it certainly does work. In the PzB vs. the world series, Andy Mac just managed to run into one of his own air-laid mines with one of his BB.



dereck -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 5:16:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lt. Calley

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
Not sure it is ahistorical - except that in the game you CANNOT lay mines with airplanes!


This is the first time that I'm reading that aerial minelaying as described in the manual is a sham. I've never gotten to 1943 yet so I haven't had a chance to try it. Can anyone else confirm that aerial minelaying is a sham?




You CAN lay mines with bombers. When I had an odd squadron out in the Marianas I had one B-29 constantly laying mines in Japanese ports. I also used B-24s and B-25s to lay mines in ports in the Marshalls.



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 5:48:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

BS is French? Dang it all - I thought for sure it was an American term. Our bulls have got to be bigger than French bulls - don't they? Especially our Texas bulls. A French bull might compare favorably to a California bull - them Cal-i-forn-ian folks are always trying to keep everything organic. Worried about meat bi-products and such. Nope, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure BS ain't no French phrase. I'll for sure as My Great Grandpappy - heck, he probably invented the phrase. [:D]


Now that's funny![:D]

I think it's the second half, after bull, thats French.[:D]
Let's face it. Nobody herds cattle like Texans do.[;)]



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 5:55:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

The game only represents about half the total tonage of merchants Japan had during the War, and far fewer Hull's than she realy had. If anything shes geting screwed.


Two points:

1) Japan never devoted enough ships to her economy - not as many as planned - and never imported enough - even though there was more than enough to import. To WIN Japan needs to give more ships to this purpose.

2) The game lets Japan (and the allies ) ride free on local supplies generated at resource centers in a grossly distorted way.


Another issue is that ships are way too range/fuel efficient, and ports vastly unlimited in cargo capacity. I can fix all but the latter.




I guess to some players of this game a Japanese invasion force of 50 AP's and 75 AK's in early '42' seems normal.

In a pigs eye.[:D]
Is that a French saying too?[;)]



durnedwolf -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 6:20:28 AM)

Black Mamba 1942 said:

quote:

I guess to some players of this game a Japanese invasion force of 50 AP's and 75 AK's in early '42' seems normal.

In a pigs eye.
Is that a French saying too?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bwaaa-ha-ha-ha! That phrase comes from Mississippi - the Pork-Belt of the US of A. [:D]They make some mighty fine BBQ in Ol' Miss.

Now you might-coulda heard it in the French quarter of New Orleans - but they most likely heard it from true Mississippians. [;)]



durnedwolf -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 6:37:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Mamba 1942

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

BS is French? Dang it all - I thought for sure it was an American term. Our bulls have got to be bigger than French bulls - don't they? Especially our Texas bulls. A French bull might compare favorably to a California bull - them Cal-i-forn-ian folks are always trying to keep everything organic. Worried about meat bi-products and such. Nope, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure BS ain't no French phrase. I'll for sure as My Great Grandpappy - heck, he probably invented the phrase. [:D]


Now that's funny![:D]

I think it's the second half, after bull, thats French.[:D]
Let's face it. Nobody herds cattle like Texans do.[;)]



Yup - I called up my Great Grandpappy on the cell-u-lar phoney; he confirmed that Texan Bulls are bigger then them "Le Bulls" from France. He's also pretty sure the phrase BS was invented by Texan Cowboys - it's why they wear them boots that go up dang near to a rider's knee. Texan Bulls, when they gotta drop a load, drop a mighty big load - don'tcha know.

Cowboy boots were made to protect a Texan from gettin' squishy socks from a mis-step, so to speak. Apparently, back in my Great Grandpappy's day, Texan Cowboys were afeared of dying with there boots on. And the Mothers of Texan Cowboys were always checking to make sure that if they died or had an accident they had clean shorts and - yup - you guessed it - clean socks! [:D]



m10bob -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 7:34:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CobraAus

quote:

Sampans, nows there's somthing I didn't consider.
They would've been mostly economic though.
Fishing and light cargo transportation.


Xmas Present Junk-Sampan

Cobra Aus
Don't forget they were used to patrol the coast of Japan defensively as well. ![:)]
[image]local://upfiles/13770/228620F0DA6646559442C8417E11F575.jpg[/image]




Tristanjohn -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 10:49:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Mamba 1942

quote:

ORIGINAL: durnedwolf

BS is French? Dang it all - I thought for sure it was an American term. Our bulls have got to be bigger than French bulls - don't they? Especially our Texas bulls. A French bull might compare favorably to a California bull - them Cal-i-forn-ian folks are always trying to keep everything organic. Worried about meat bi-products and such. Nope, now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure BS ain't no French phrase. I'll for sure as My Great Grandpappy - heck, he probably invented the phrase. [:D]


Now that's funny![:D]

I think it's the second half, after bull, thats French.[:D]


The second part undoubtedly is French, but we found poetic use for it!

quote:

Let's face it. Nobody herds cattle like Texans do.[;)]


Actually, I've heard that many outbackers down under do herd sheep similarly . . . or was that somewhat "familiarly"?



String -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 1:35:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Mamba 1942


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

quote:

The game only represents about half the total tonage of merchants Japan had during the War, and far fewer Hull's than she realy had. If anything shes geting screwed.


Two points:

1) Japan never devoted enough ships to her economy - not as many as planned - and never imported enough - even though there was more than enough to import. To WIN Japan needs to give more ships to this purpose.

2) The game lets Japan (and the allies ) ride free on local supplies generated at resource centers in a grossly distorted way.


Another issue is that ships are way too range/fuel efficient, and ports vastly unlimited in cargo capacity. I can fix all but the latter.




I guess to some players of this game a Japanese invasion force of 50 AP's and 75 AK's in early '42' seems normal.

In a pigs eye.[:D]
Is that a French saying too?[;)]




Teehee.. I used over 300 transports to invade New Caledonia in late 42. + the whole combined fleet. I was suffering fuel problems in the south pacific area for the next 3-4 months. Despite assigning all and any TK's I could find (and later even AK's) I couldn't transport enough fuel down there and the problems only stopped when I pulled back most of the combined fleet.

Who was saying that the japs don't suffer from fuel problems?



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 2:34:14 PM)

This is one of the reasons that I'd give up some historical accuracy in favor of play balance.
In this game the massing of everything is possible.
Allowing the unplausable application of a lot of units.

Off note.[;)]
I'm attempting to offset this for my own scenario.
My opinions are in no way directed towards Matrix and their efforts.
After almost a year and a half after release, WITP still has some major quirks.
I am hopeful that Matrix is focusing on resolving some of these.
By fixing these bugs it might give this game a boost in sales after all this time.
I hope Matrix considers this.[;)]



Brady -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 5:47:12 PM)



"This is one of the reasons that I'd give up some historical accuracy in favor of play balance."

...........

The game is rife with playbalance mechanism's, Zero Bonious, Allied Heavy Bomber's and the ship killing abalitys, their Bigger bombs for such atacks exc, P-38 availabality in the stock scenarious,Allied ground units available sooner than they would be historicaly, their are many more...

The shiping isue is just not realy even an isue imo, as noted above Japan merchant fleat is realy shorted in a big way in the stock game, in total tonage and in Hull's.

Also again, if you play the game unhistoricaly your going to see unhistorical results.



tsimmonds -> RE: Japanese Merchant Shipping (12/27/2005 5:58:36 PM)

Speaking as one who plays IJ exclusively, it is my opinion that there is too much transport capacity for IJ, both AP and AK. I have never felt constrained in any way at any time, whether playing a stock scenario 15, or a mod that cut the capacities of all AP/AK in half. There was still plenty of capacity to do whatever I wanted to do as I wanted to do it. Just MHO.



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