Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (Full Version)

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starsis1 -> Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/1/2006 8:55:43 PM)

I would like to have a discussion on what could soviets have done to win the war earlier then May of 1945. I would suggest that we leave the purges and political system changes outside of the discussion and just concentrate on matters military and industrial. For instance, better pre-war deployment, early war command-and-control organization, tactial and operational doctrines, etc.
Looking forward to hearing what you people think.



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/1/2006 9:16:03 PM)

This is a trick question, right?[:D]

The "Purge" of most of his senior officers rates as my #1 choice.

The major military losses suffered by the USSR, at the start, was do to lack of leadership.
Those that replaced the "Purged" officers knew what had happened to their previous comrades.
Fear of ones own safety takes away initiative at the command level.[;)]



starsis1 -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/1/2006 9:32:27 PM)

I fully agree that the purges were a huge contributing factor to the way the war on the Eastern front shaped itself. However, just for the argument's sake, let's assume that the purges and the soviet social/political system are given. Let's say that things that happened before 1940 (just to be make sure that most of the 1933, 37, 39 purges took place the way they did) stayed the way there were. Given that, would could have happened differently?



Tom Hunter -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/1/2006 9:32:43 PM)

So you want to have a discussion of how they could have won early without political discussion? That is haveing a discussion of how they could have won early without having a discussion of how they could have won early.

But OK I will stick to military. Better Soviet training in marksmanship results in three times as many casualties for the German army and all the Nazi's dead by 1943.

I'm a genius [:D]



starsis1 -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/1/2006 9:41:18 PM)

I bet taming and training King Kong and Godzilla to fight as part of the 1st Guard Beast Brigade would have helped too. Seriously, do you think about things like deploying first echelon of the troops farther back from the border, or adapting elastic defense with smaller units (cavalry/ligth tanks) to buy time rather then using static infantry formation to defend in place, or withdrawing from Kiev pocket earlier then it happened historically thus preserving last (and arguably the best) large pre-war trained formations for later operations.



Tristanjohn -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 4:04:13 AM)

I love this. Yet another phantom account.

Keep up the good work, boys. [:D]



Cpt Sherwood -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 5:41:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

I love this. Yet another phantom account.

Keep up the good work, boys. [:D]


How do you define a 'phantom' account? I only joined a couple of months ago but have more posts that staris1. Does that mean that I am some kind of 'phantom' account? Staris joined about 1.5 years ago. Does this mean that everyone is considered a 'phantom' account until they have some number of posts? Or is it just time that counts? Or do we have to give you all kinds of information?



Tristanjohn -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 6:25:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpt Sherwood


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

I love this. Yet another phantom account.

Keep up the good work, boys. [:D]


How do you define a 'phantom' account? I only joined a couple of months ago but have more posts that staris1. Does that mean that I am some kind of 'phantom' account? Staris joined about 1.5 years ago. Does this mean that everyone is considered a 'phantom' account until they have some number of posts? Or is it just time that counts? Or do we have to give you all kinds of information?


It's impossible to say what is and what is not a phantom account. But it's pretty clear we have these things. In the case of Staris1, we have a guy who's been here what, a year and a half about, right? With how many posts? I make it 13 as I write this. That makes me think at least that someone just trots "him" out when it's convenient to do so. Why people behave like this I don't know, but that's the way it is on the Net.





scout1 -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 6:39:08 AM)

quote:

It's impossible to say what is and what is not a phantom account. But it's pretty clear we have these things. In the case of Staris1, we have a guy who's been here what, a year and a half about, right? With how many posts? I make it 13 as I write this. That makes me think at least that someone just trots "him" out when it's convenient to do so. Why people behave like this I don't know, but that's the way it is on the Net.


Now that's conspiracy theory at its best !



diesel7013 -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 8:33:20 AM)

It's probably Pasts alter ego! [:D][:D][:D]



Tristanjohn -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 2:45:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

quote:

It's impossible to say what is and what is not a phantom account. But it's pretty clear we have these things. In the case of Staris1, we have a guy who's been here what, a year and a half about, right? With how many posts? I make it 13 as I write this. That makes me think at least that someone just trots "him" out when it's convenient to do so. Why people behave like this I don't know, but that's the way it is on the Net.


Now that's conspiracy theory at its best !


Let me ask you this straight: do you think some people run phantom accounts on this board?




Tristanjohn -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 2:47:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: diesel7013

It's probably Pasts alter ego! [:D][:D][:D]


Nah, none of them are articulate enough for that.

    (thenagainmaybehesjustbeingclever)




Phantom Account -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 3:17:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Let me ask you this straight: do you think some people run phantom accounts on this board?



No



madmickey -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 4:42:19 PM)

I guess Stalin having a car accident is a political change.



rtrapasso -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 4:42:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phantom Account

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Let me ask you this straight: do you think some people run phantom accounts on this board?



No


Ah, come on!! Not even one teensy phantom account?[:'(]
(btw, P.A., i think i saw you hanging out at your Toll Booth the other day...)



Crimguy -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 5:14:51 PM)

I think you all should know that I'm not me, and I'm not here right now. BOOO!

Drugs'll do that to you. Quit smoking to wbich I think has caused some visual halleucinations.



Emilio -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 7:25:05 PM)

IMO not fighting with the guts as the soviets did until winter 42. They lost the half of the whole red army only in the Kiev pocket. Instead retreating, delaying the german advance, they lost the gamble at Kiev and almost the war (just for a few weeks). Keeping the red army almost intact would allow better counter offensives in the overextended german lines.

Also the offensive in Kharkov was also a disaster, breaking the german lines, advancing a lot and being trapped after by the flanks. Others disasters as Operation Mars were not really important since the Stalingrad success.

quote:

ORIGINAL: starsis1

I would like to have a discussion on what could soviets have done to win the war earlier then May of 1945. I would suggest that we leave the purges and political system changes outside of the discussion and just concentrate on matters military and industrial. For instance, better pre-war deployment, early war command-and-control organization, tactial and operational doctrines, etc.
Looking forward to hearing what you people think.




Phantom Account -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/2/2006 9:58:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phantom Account

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tristanjohn

Let me ask you this straight: do you think some people run phantom accounts on this board?



No


Ah, come on!! Not even one teensy phantom account?[:'(]
(btw, P.A., i think i saw you hanging out at your Toll Booth the other day...)


Yep, I was waiting to eats me some billy goats for lunch.



BossGnome -> RE: Okay - How USSR could have defeated Germany earlier then 1945 (1/3/2006 11:49:49 AM)

germany could never have won. I posted the link to this article like a year ago, but people dont seem to remember it.

http://rumandmonkey.com/articles/187/



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