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civdiv -> Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 1:29:07 AM)
I hate to make my first post a semi-complaint. But, well, I wanted to express my issue, so I registered. I was about to buy World at War. It's a game I've had my eye on for a while and I am a big Grigsby fan. But I noted the $50 price, and I was a bit shocked. The game has been out for a while, and I can't remember ever having paid $50 for a game (Yeah, I shop around, and I never buy a game within 30 days of it coming out, unless I've seen a couple of good reviews AND it is on sale.). So I shopped around. You can get the game, new, through a whole bunch of places including Amazon, for $30 or under. I even found it one place for $19.99. I figured come right to the source and cut out the middle-men. What gives?

Kung Karl -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 2:06:54 AM)
When you go directly to the source and buy computergames you almost always have to pay more than if a game go retail. So games that never hits retail is hard to find cheap unless you get it on eBay. That is my experience, don't know if it is true to the real world. Just how I feel.

rhondabrwn -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 2:55:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: civdiv I hate to make my first post a semi-complaint. But, well, I wanted to express my issue, so I registered. I was about to buy World at War. It's a game I've had my eye on for a while and I am a big Grigsby fan. But I noted the $50 price, and I was a bit shocked. The game has been out for a while, and I can't remember ever having paid $50 for a game (Yeah, I shop around, and I never buy a game within 30 days of it coming out, unless I've seen a couple of good reviews AND it is on sale.). So I shopped around. You can get the game, new, through a whole bunch of places including Amazon, for $30 or under. I even found it one place for $19.99. I figured come right to the source and cut out the middle-men. What gives? The previous poster pretty much nailed it. You won't find bargains by going to the source (you will be supporting the hobby, of course). Most retail games get shelf space for a very limited time and then the steep discounting begins as people move on to the "next big thing". A good wargame, on the other hand, will tend to sell in the hobby market for a long time. A direct source like Matrix or HPS will be selling their line directly (at full price) for many years. World at War will disappear from the store shelves eventually as well as from the bargain bins, but it will always be available from Matrix and probably at full price. The game won't be worth less just because it ages... people will be playing this years from now. In comparison, think about the retail buyers of PS2 or X-Box games who play through a game in a few days and are then ready to sell or trade it. Think about Doom I, II, III ad nauseum. Would anyone buy the original Doom for full price? Nope... gotta have the latest and greatest. Would anyone buy Korsun Pocket now that is has been superseded by Battles in Normandy and Battles in Italy? Of course they would, depending upon their own interests. The HPS Panzer Campaign series goes on endlessly as new battles are explored, but the original still sells for the same price (and will continue to do so I expect). So, accept that wargames are a different breed of cat and don't expect to see drastic price cutting from the source. As others will probably advise, go to Ebay and get used copies there if you don't want to pay full price. Of course, I buy from Matrix and HPS to help finance continued expansion of their line. If I get a game used, they aren't getting a dime from it (not that I'm trying to be critical of the frugal and pennywise out there) I just prefer to support my favorite designers and publishers. Retail games though... well, I go for the bargain bins every time. Microsoft can manage with me paying $19.99 for Flight Simulator 2004 [:D] or even for $10. After all, there is Flight Simulator 2006/2007/2008... on the Horizon for them to exploint as the retail cycle continues.

pasternakski -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 3:38:38 AM)
It's a lot simpler than that. This game tanked. It's too much like the dead, dead and gone, dead and beaten to death Axis and Allies. It's available for nickels and dimes. It deserves to be.

civdiv -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 4:35:05 AM)
Wow, the reviews were very good, care to expand? Is it better than HOI (The first one). I can actually get it for under $20 (WaW). Now you have me wondering.

rhondabrwn -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 4:52:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: civdiv Wow, the reviews were very good, care to expand? Is it better than HOI (The first one). I can actually get it for under $20 (WaW). Now you have me wondering. Oh no! HOI...The "P word" (Paradox). That will set things off around here (as you will soon learn!) [:D] I think WaW would be better compared to HOI II though. But it's just another "flavor" as far as I'm concerned and I'm really not a huge fan of wargames with little ships, tanks, and planes to move about. Somehow, I've just never really connected as I'm more of a KP/BIN/BII or COAW or Battleground series gamer. I don't knock these games though as I recognize the work that went into the design. That's where Pasternakski and I part company, I support everybody and am just happy to have all of the choices available. He is more discerning of deficiencies and less patient than I. [sm=00001746.gif]

Fred98 -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 5:29:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn more of a KP/BIN/BII or..........series gamer. Rhonda, we havn't seen you over at the RUN 5 forums - the home of that series.

Fred98 -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 5:41:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: civdiv W@W..........HOI ………you have me wondering. I am an old fan of the Avalon Hill board game Rise and Decline of the Third Reich, (“3R”) released about 1974. When I heard that HOI (1) , HOI (2) and W@W were in production, I immediately thought of 3R. But none of them come up to scratch. To me, they can all be consigned to children’s toy department. I the meantime, I await patiently, the PC version of 3R - currently in production [&o]

Reiryc -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 6:11:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: civdiv Wow, the reviews were very good, care to expand? Is it better than HOI (The first one). I can actually get it for under $20 (WaW). Now you have me wondering. It's a fun game and worth the money. It's more akin to axis and allies on steroids than hoi 1 or 2. As opposed to axis and allies, this actually has a supply system and the like. I wouldn't pay much attention to pasternakski, he is one of the resident pain the arses around here and complains about most things. You could drop kate moss on his lap and he'd b*tch because she was 3 ounces overweight. [8\|]

Reiryc -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 6:15:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: civdiv I hate to make my first post a semi-complaint. But, well, I wanted to express my issue, so I registered. I was about to buy World at War. It's a game I've had my eye on for a while and I am a big Grigsby fan. But I noted the $50 price, and I was a bit shocked. The game has been out for a while, and I can't remember ever having paid $50 for a game (Yeah, I shop around, and I never buy a game within 30 days of it coming out, unless I've seen a couple of good reviews AND it is on sale.). So I shopped around. You can get the game, new, through a whole bunch of places including Amazon, for $30 or under. I even found it one place for $19.99. I figured come right to the source and cut out the middle-men. What gives? This is becoming pretty standard with companies such as this. I think it was already mentioned, but HPS SIMS is the same way. You can buy any of their panzer campaigns titles from them for $49.95 but if you shop elsewhere, say like NWS online, you can get the same titles for $29.99. http://store.yahoo.com/yhst-12000246778232/woatwarmagac.html Got there and you can get the game much cheaper. I've done business with them and I've never had a problem. Go here for the full matrix line: http://store.yahoo.com/yhst-12000246778232/matrixgames1.html

sabre100 -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 6:36:58 AM)
quote: I the meantime, I await patiently, the PC version of 3R - currently in production Joe who is making a pc version of 3R if you dont mind we asking? Thanks

Fred98 -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 7:36:12 AM)
Developed by Magenter Games. Apparantly to be published by Matrix. Announced over a year ago and apparantly the project is still under way.

rhondabrwn -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 7:55:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joe 98 quote: ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn more of a KP/BIN/BII or..........series gamer. Rhonda, we havn't seen you over at the RUN 5 forums - the home of that series. Well, I've sneaked in and downloaded all the scenarios! Too many websites... so little time!

Raverdave -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 10:03:34 AM)
WTF is RUN 5 forums ?????[:(]

Fred98 -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 10:53:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raverdave WTF is RUN 5 forums ????? The correct grammar: WTF are the RUN 5 forums????? http:ssg.com.au/forums/index.php If that fails go to SSG's home page. Look to the left and from there to the forums www.ssg.com.au -

Marc von Martial -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 12:59:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pasternakski It's a lot simpler than that. This game tanked. It's too much like the dead, dead and gone, dead and beaten to death Axis and Allies. It's available for nickels and dimes. It deserves to be. Yeah right [8\|]

Kung Karl -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 2:01:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck quote: ORIGINAL: pasternakski It's a lot simpler than that. This game tanked. It's too much like the dead, dead and gone, dead and beaten to death Axis and Allies. It's available for nickels and dimes. It deserves to be. Yeah right [8\|] I agree. This game is NOT Axis & Allies. SOmeone have been judging a game by screenshsots. Don't be fooled, this game is not Axis & Allies. I own both and this is much better. I also own HoI2 and that is also a very good game with the latest patch. HoI2 is more complex and deeper, very fun. These games should not be seen as either or. They compliment each other very well. Fast game of WW2 I go or WaW or if I want a deep experience I go for HoI2. Both are equally fun just diffrent styles. So what do you want? A game that you can finish in one evening or a game that takes longer to complete one campaign? That is what you should ask yourself.

Hanal -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 2:33:20 PM)
I the meantime, I await patiently, the PC version of 3R - currently in production Joe who is making a pc version of 3R if you dont mind we asking? quote: ORIGINAL: Joe 98 Developed by Magenter Games. Apparantly to be published by Matrix. Announced over a year ago and apparantly the project is still under way. I do not recall reading anything about this and I cannot even find a company named Magenter Games via a web search....Is this an actual version of the Avalon Hill Third Reich or just a reasonable facsimile thereof? I thought Hasbro still holds the licence for this game but anyway this is interesting news if it is still in the works...

Erik Rutins -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 4:35:07 PM)
The key difference between GGWAW and the other games from 2005 is that GGWAW went to a full US retail release and later to a full international retail release. As a result, a lot of retail copies were printed and sent out. Once that happens, you eventually find them in all kinds of channels at all kinds of prices. That's not the case with our other titles from 2005, although some older releases also went to retail and may also still occasionally turn up in their retail box versions. Regards, - Erik

Hanal -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 6:14:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins The key difference between GGWAW and the other games from 2005 is that GGWAW went to a full US retail release and later to a full international retail release. As a result, a lot of retail copies were printed and sent out. Once that happens, you eventually find them in all kinds of channels at all kinds of prices. That's not the case with our other titles from 2005, although some older releases also went to retail and may also still occasionally turn up in their retail box versions. Regards, - Erik I can vouch for this comment because for many months CompUSA had one copy left of Korsun Pocket languishing on their shelf and they never reduced the price....eventually it sold

Veldor -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 9:15:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: J P Falcon I the meantime, I await patiently, the PC version of 3R - currently in production Joe who is making a pc version of 3R if you dont mind we asking? I do not recall reading anything about this and I cannot even find a company named Magenter Games via a web search....Is this an actual version of the Avalon Hill Third Reich or just a reasonable facsimile thereof? I thought Hasbro still holds the licence for this game but anyway this is interesting news if it is still in the works... I am also aware of the above mentioned project though I do not have any recent info and don't know if any was ever even publicly shared. I'd actually be curious how you heard about it Joe. As I've stated elsewhere lack of info and updates doesn't equate to a projects or titles death. As I believe Matrix is beginning to realize (as a few staff have already said such on these very forums), its just better business practice in this industry to keep things secret and quieter longer. There are real reasons why most other developers/publishers follow the opposite school of thought from Matrix's original stance. As for rights, there is always more than one way to obtain them. And in the case of titles like Third Reich things get complicated because there are various versions and previous versions where it would not be so certain that Hasbro would even be the undisputed possessor of such rights. Hasbro themselves has recently been returning some rights to various AH titles to other parties and in other cases has been more open to talks than they may necessarily have been in the past. This is why we are seeing more re-emergence of AH titles both on the PC and off than ever before. Likely though (and at this part I am just totally guessing based on what I'd do) if there is a short list of properties they wouldn't want to part with easily, I'd imagine Third Reich to be on that list. So other avenues for rights or not, in the case of that title, any route that wouldn't include Hasbro would likely not make Hasbro very happy were they to become aware of it. So, with this project in particular, there is the added possibility that it could die or have died based on nothing more than legal issues and/or complications. For my part, I'd just like to know simply if its alive in anyway or officially dead. I'd say my last info on this was gained approx 1.5 to 2 years ago.

ravinhood -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/6/2006 11:06:43 PM)
quote: Is it better than HOI (The first one). Lol Anything is better than HOI or HOI 2, even Napoleans Battles and EYSA! ;) This post just to apease rhondabrwn. haha cause of what she said. ;)

rhondabrwn -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/7/2006 2:52:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ravinhood quote: Is it better than HOI (The first one). Lol Anything is better than HOI or HOI 2, even Napoleans Battles and EYSA! ;) This post just to apease rhondabrwn. haha cause of what she said. ;) I thought you would like it [;)]

pasternakski -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/7/2006 3:09:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Reiryc I wouldn't pay much attention to pasternakski, he is one of the resident pain the arses around here and complains about most things. You could drop kate moss on his lap and he'd b*tch because she was 3 ounces overweight. [8\|] If you're into Kate Moss, that says a lot about your taste in women. As far as your characterization of me as a "pain in the arse," would you please elaborate? I would like to see some specific support for this personal insult. Otherwise, you've got nothing to say.

pasternakski -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/7/2006 3:29:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kung Karl This game is NOT Axis & Allies. SOmeone have been judging a game by screenshsots. I didn't say it was. If you read my post again, you may find (although so many people here just want to see me as some morbid @$$hole) that all I said was GGWaW resembles A&A so much that many prospective buyers were not receptive. I personally know several wargamers who took one look and turned up their noses. I have played this unfortunate mess. It's another Grigsby disaster in my estimation (and, as a paying customer, I am entitled to evaluate what I play and state my opinion just like anyone else. I am not a Matrix sycophant. I will not sit here and mewl and puke over their titles. I think GGWaW was asbsolutely the wrong direction to go, have said so many times before, and am not persuaded otherwise by anything I have read here). As for Matrix staff giving me the "rolleyes," all I can say is, if I am wrong, post some numbers that prove me wrong. Otherwise, shut up and get off my back.

Reiryc -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/7/2006 5:17:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pasternakski quote: ORIGINAL: Reiryc I wouldn't pay much attention to pasternakski, he is one of the resident pain the arses around here and complains about most things. You could drop kate moss on his lap and he'd b*tch because she was 3 ounces overweight. [8\|] If you're into Kate Moss, that says a lot about your taste in women. As far as your characterization of me as a "pain in the arse," would you please elaborate? I would like to see some specific support for this personal insult. Otherwise, you've got nothing to say. I've got plenty to say regardless of whether or not I elaborate. As for some specific support, how about this? http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=981657&mpage=1&key=pasternakski I think rhondabrown 'said' it best on page 2 when she wrote, "Your entry into this thread was "Yeah. If I were you, I'd stop complaining and just go away" when Veldor expressed his opinion that most "new" games were sequels and not really original. Now if that isn't a deliberate effort to pick a fight then I don't know what is. If I followed you into every thread in which you post and then added some "there he goes again"... "typical Pasternakski".. "yea, you're the expert aren't you?" and similar sarcastic comments, then I wouldn't be at all surprised if people ganged up on me, called me a troll, and said to cool it. I would also take the hint, stick to threads in which I have an interest, and only post when I had something constructive to add to the discussion." Now add in your constant whining about WiTP and yeah, I'd chalk it up to your being a pain in the arse. It's one thing to give your complaints about the subject, but you inject it over and over and over, even in threads where it isn't relevant. Btw, since you missed the point about kate moss, it had nothing to do with 'my taste in women' but rather that you nit pick over every little detail and would nit pick even someone as thin as her for being 3 ounces over weight.

pasternakski -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/7/2006 5:39:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Reiryc I think rhondabrown 'said' it best on page 2 when she wrote, "Your entry into this thread was "Yeah. If I were you, I'd stop complaining and just go away" when Veldor expressed his opinion that most "new" games were sequels and not really original. Now if that isn't a deliberate effort to pick a fight then I don't know what is. You don't seem to be much of a thorough reader, or you don't understand what it is you are reading (and it is unfortunate that Ms. Brown, who purports to be a teacher, doesn't do much better). The post you cite was merely a statement in response to Veldor that there was something wrong with a company other than Matrix and, as he had been critical of me for being critical of Matrix, I tried to show him that he was doing there exactly what he accused me of doing here. There was no animosity intended, and Veldor appears to have appreciated as much. It was all in fun, with a little "jab to the ribs" among friends. You seem to have some kind of "let's blow pasternakski up with a roadside bomb" agenda going that is way out of place here. quote: If I followed you into every thread in which you post and then added some "there he goes again"... "typical Pasternakski".. "yea, you're the expert aren't you?" and similar sarcastic comments, then I wouldn't be at all surprised if people ganged up on me, called me a troll, and said to cool it. I would also take the hint, stick to threads in which I have an interest, and only post when I had something constructive to add to the discussion." I will post where I want, when I want, and how it pleases me to speak (I suggest that my contributions to these forums have been nothing but constructive, informative, and humorous when that seems to be appropriate). You expect nothing less on your own behalf. I suggest that you confine yourself to subject matter, not insults. I ask that you stop these personal attacks. Just because I say something with which you do not agree, you are not entitled to use expressions like "troll" to describe me. I am not a Matrix "basher." At the same time, my expectations as a consumer have been frequently disappointed by this company, and I hope for better. I'm not getting it. Still, I post here because I think that Matrix holds much promise for my hobby interests. When I stop posting, that's when I will have become completely frustrated. I'm not there yet (but I'm not happy with where things are going, either). quote: Now add in your constant whining about WiTP and yeah, I'd chalk it up to your being a pain in the arse. It's one thing to give your complaints about the subject, but you inject it over and over and over, even in threads where it isn't relevant. Again, I ask that you substantiate this insult. Anyone who reads my posts objectively fully understands that I do not "whine." I insist that you retract this slander of my character. I am sick and tired of you looking for excuses to heap such unfounded derision on my pronouncements (while I look for excuses to pronounce heaps on your derided foundation). quote: Btw, since you missed the point about kate moss, it had nothing to do with 'my taste in women' but rather that you nit pick over every little detail and would nit pick even someone as thin as her for being 3 ounces over weight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am always hot for dope smoking hos. Now, can you move on to having fun and stop taking this all so seriously like I am Adolf Mussolini or something?

Reiryc -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/7/2006 5:57:09 AM)
quote: You don't seem to be much of a thorough reader, or you don't understand what it is you are reading (and it is unfortunate that Ms. Brown, who purports to be a teacher, doesn't do much better). The post you cite was merely a statement in response to Veldor that there was something wrong with a company other than Matrix and, as he had been critical of me for being critical of Matrix, I tried to show him that he was doing there exactly what he accused me of doing here. There was no animosity intended, and Veldor appears to have appreciated as much. It was all in fun, with a little "jab to the ribs" among friends. You seem to have some kind of "let's blow pasternakski up with a roadside bomb" agenda going that is way out of place here. I think it is you who needs to learn some reading comprehension as this is twice now that you've failed. Veldor certainly didn't demonstrate 'appreciation' of what you wrote as evidenced in his replies to you: quote: "What you do is called "Trolling" and it is against almost all forum's policies. Matrix needs to start enforcing their forum policies better or people will continue to stop visiting here on their own. You are clearly a troll in every thread I have ever posted. If this weren't matrix, but a place where they enforce their own rules, you'd have been banned long ago for violating forum rules." Or when Veldor said the following: quote: " There is no commentary or useful information to the majority of your posts in my threads, including this one. You are trolling and have been for some time in threads I participate in. "Trolling is whenever someone is clearly, deliberately posting in a manner for the purpose of angering and/or insulting the other participants of the board. Trolling could be directed towards one user or a group of users. Trolling DOES NOT encourage further discussion, it only encourages personal attacks (if left unchecked) and will not be tolerated. " There is nothing funny about you being a troll." Maybe you're under some delusion that "There is nothing funny about you being a troll" show's appreciation for what you had been doing, but to most folks, that is hardly a term used to indicate no animosity. quote: I will post where I want, when I want, and how it pleases me to speak (I suggest that my contributions to these forums have been nothing but constructive, informative, and humorous when that seems to be appropriate). You expect nothing less on your own behalf. I suggest that you confine yourself to subject matter, not insults. I ask that you stop these personal attacks. Just because I say something with which you do not agree, you are not entitled to use expressions like "troll" to describe me. I am not a Matrix "basher." At the same time, my expectations as a consumer have been frequently disappointed by this company, and I hope for better. I'm not getting it. Still, I post here because I think that Matrix holds much promise for my hobby interests. When I stop posting, that's when I will have become completely frustrated. I'm not there yet (but I'm not happy with where things are going, either). I hope you realize that I didn't write this but rather rhondabrown wrote it. My point in quoting it was to demonstrate an area where you are a pain in the arse. You asked for an example and one was given. quote: Again, I ask that you substantiate this insult. Anyone who reads my posts objectively fully understands that I do not "whine." There was a thread about hoi2 and someone was writing about the hoi2 manual. Out of nowhere of course, you come in with a shot about the witp manual. The WiTP manual had nothing to do with the topic, but true to form, here comes pasternakski with a whine about the witp manual. quote: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am always hot for dope smoking hos. Now, can you move on to having fun and stop taking this all so seriously like I am Adolf Mussolini or something? Who said I am taking this all so seriously? You asked me to substantiate and I did so.

Veldor -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/7/2006 6:51:35 AM)
Woohoo! Another "Wargamers Gone Wild!" thread... My names being thrown about but somehow I'm not involved in this one. I feel so left out. Would somebody PLEASE start insulting me now so that I can fully participate? I'll try some partially-flammable fuel: I suspect, with absolutely no official data to back me up, that GGWaW made a whole lot more money than WiTP. Even if I am incorrect on that statement there are at least two other things that MUST be true: 1. GGWaW certainly sold many many more copies than WiTP given it made retail distribution. 2. GGWaW certainly took far less time to develop than its WiTP counterpart. So even if by math WiTP made more money due to its higher price and larger margin, when the time of those involved is factored in, there is zero chance it did. Of that I'm nearly certain. And I honestly doubt WiTP made more money by any math. Though likely, at this point, only Matrix and 2by3 would know for sure... Put a different way, there are more posts in the GGWaW forums than all the forums for SSG and Panther Games combined (And most of those titles have been out much much longer). When you add in the fact that many many retail purchasers may not even be forum members as of yet, thats a WHOLE LOT of people playing GGWaW for a game that supposedly "tanked", as one person put it. Though some may or may not agree with the direction GGWaW went, it would certainly appear to me that it was not the wrong one from a sales standpoint. To Pasternakski, you lost me at "This game tanked." Whatever the truth about the title might be, the statement seems radical given it's apparant popularity amongst some and on these very forums if nothing else. To Civdiv, welcome to the forums. As you yourself pointed out, reviews for the game have been good. It even won an award as the "Best Game of the Year That No One Played" from a noted source (I forget exactly which at the moment). Obviously the "No One Played" part was meant to be a reference to the fact that not enough people had the priviledge of owning the title.

rhondabrwn -> RE: Hmmmm.... (1/7/2006 8:49:19 AM)
My ears were burning all day... and I thought it was just a touch of sunburn [:'(] Don't y'all just love it when your words gain the immortality to be resurrected like Lazarus and tossed like a molotov cocktail into a current thread? Other than that... no comment. We've been through all of this before (and probably will again). [sm=00000016.gif] [sm=00000506.gif] [sm=00001746.gif] [sm=00000924.gif]

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