What is a balanced visibility? (Full Version)

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StefanE -> What is a balanced visibility? (1/12/2006 12:06:11 PM)

Hi

I'm setting a PBEM-game up for playing with a friend. In our latest game we had a visibility of 35 which felt like it favoured me since I was playing german against US (him) in -44. Those excellent guns of the Panthers and even PzIV-f2 ventilated his Shermans without them having any good chances of hitting back.

In out next game we are going to play UK (advance) vs Germany (delay) in desert -41, and we would like to have a visibility that isn't favouring either side. Is there any "rules of thumb" for visibility in a gaming sence (I don't care if it isn't historically correct)? Does it depend on arena, nations, period or battle type (meeting/advance/assault)? Or am I completely misinterpreting the whole concept of visibility when playing against a human (I'm mostly playing against the AI and then I don't feel it matter much)?

Thanks in advance for any light you make in this subject

/Stefan



sabrejack -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/13/2006 1:08:07 AM)

In the desert you'll often find that the weather / visibility is set automatically to 'sandstorm' and 'something really low' by the game, no matter what you manually set it to.




StefanE -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/13/2006 11:27:19 AM)

Thanks for the warning.

How about you other skilled players out there. Do you feel that visiblity affects balance in PBEM-games or do others factors such as map type make more difference?

/Stefan



Swamprat -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/13/2006 1:43:34 PM)

In theory visibilty should be well over 30 hexes on day battles. Places like Monte Cassino were important because observers could see for miles.
In practice big guns with excellent sights get easier kills over long range than should perhaps be the case, so everyone scrambles to lower the vis. But, as you pointed out, raising or lowering the vis affects different unit types seperately.
Using the visibility to protect Shermans from being ventilated 'unfairly' at range only serves to hide a US player's rubbish tactics.
And I wouldn't call 35 excessive at all. In fact I would call it average.
Rather than worry too much about the vis, perhaps use a map that has more terrain to break up the line of sight - this would be more realistic.
Bit pointless lowering the vis for a desert battle. Rather like lowering the vis for a naval battle because your enemy can see you from too far away. Fighting on a high visibility, low terrain setup is a seperate skill in itself, just like fighting in a jungle is different again. No point trying to bend the whole world round just to make it look like Europe.
At very high vis, things aren't quite that bad. Over twenty hexes infantry are still invisible provided they aren't running. Desert battles of 41-43 mostly involve guns that can't hit well at over twenty hexes, and certainly can't penetrate. It may feel odd to manoever your army in full view of the enemy, but there's no reason you can't get used to it. And there's still dust and smoke.



VikingNo2 -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/13/2006 5:20:57 PM)

For me its 22, 24 max

Anything over 24 you can see through trees, plus when you go in the 30's player two smoke does him almost no good due to it being a turn based game. The major problem is spotting and vis are linked the higher the vis the better the spotting it sounds right but should a truck diver be able to spot a 35 hexs while moving he is moving even if he is moving slow. Units with optic get the same vision as one with out




Swamprat -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/14/2006 12:20:19 AM)

Interesting that you can see through trees. But only single lines until very high vis.

Just done a quick test though of scouts spotting troops, and setting the visibility first at 9 then 99 made no difference to chances of spotting or distance spotted. In both cases stationary troops in trees were spotted at 4 hexes.



VikingNo2 -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/14/2006 4:20:31 AM)

Most of the time you only have one row of trees, and when things are moving things get spotted all over the place, Hi vis game you just bunch a buch of 40mm AA, played bunches of games of games with higher vis always ran into the same problems, again players wo smoke is almost usless to him as well as the spotting



Swamprat -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/14/2006 12:50:16 PM)

Your argument has it's merits, but most of my games are 30vis or higher. Never gave it much thought, but I haven't encountered any major problems.

The real sticking point for me is computer generated maps. Now there are loads of single tree lines in them, and acres of visibility as the terrain resembles a pool table with some bumps. I much prefer custom maps, with real woods, walls, hedges and stuff. And then the high vis is not an issue, or at least not one I've noticed.
Bunches of 40mm or 88's sweeping an area can be a problem, just like hoards of Tigers and concentrations of nebelwerfers can be problems. But a battle is just a bunch of problems that want solving.
Granted, the problem of being shot up from long range can be solved by reducing the visible range. And 24 hex vis may be deemed more than enough for any game. That's fine. But for me, it's a solution that's a bit artificial. Yeah, I know it's an artificial game anyway, but I prefer to solve the problem in other ways.




Major Destruction -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/14/2006 5:42:30 PM)

If the weather is good, then the air force should be out in strength. Let's watch those panthers driving around in broad daylight while typhoons are out hunting.

But some folks might argue that letting the Allies have airpower without also giving some to the Germans is unfair.........



Riun T -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/14/2006 5:56:14 PM)

Yipping about visibility isn't a good substitute for bad tactics and deployment.
Try using the terrain in masking or hull down on the ley of hills with your most powerfull hardest hitting AT's in an advancing cloverleaf supported with walking infantry. OR just set your units to fire at a reasonable range for success and keep them in cover till the last possible moment. Send out high speed recon and give them radio priority with your Arrty and for god sakes man experiment and never say die!! RT



Swamprat -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/14/2006 6:33:15 PM)

quote:

But some folks might argue that letting the Allies have airpower without also giving some to the Germans is unfair.........



Not at all. Let the allies have all those aircraft. That's why the Germans have the best range of AA, mobile and stationary.
Give me Germans manning flakvierlings and you can have all the aircraft you like.[sm=Evil-210.gif]









Oddly enough though, I find the best AA to be US M16's. Were they really this effective? I chew up troops so easily with them that it's sometimes embarrassing. The ultimate in obscene decadence. [sm=00000619.gif]



StefanE -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/16/2006 10:05:39 AM)

Thanks for your answers. However, most answers discuss personal preferences but what I would like to know is if visibility favours any nationality at any time? Is there any settings that should be avoided when setting up games between friends who both are pretty inexperienced with PBEM:ing?

Thanks for your patience with me and any light you may spread in this issue

/Stefan



Swamprat -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/16/2006 12:11:57 PM)

High visibility of 40+ favours the Germans due to their excellent long range accuracy. So if playing allies on terrain with few features then Germans will definitely have the advantage over the allies, and you'll get results similar perhaps to what the British had in Operation Goodwood, north of Caen, i.e. A few German Tigers and AT guns knocking out whole squadrons of tanks at 2000m range. But at least it will be realistic. [:D]

At 20 or less you take away the long range advantage of the Germans somewhat, which makes buying the big stuff a waste of money then.
That's why I prefer 30.

But as Viking pointed out, setting it above 24 alters the effect that terrain has on visibility. This affects both sides equally, but it's worth being aware of.



brador -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/16/2006 5:37:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Swamprat

quote:

But some folks might argue that letting the Allies have airpower without also giving some to the Germans is unfair.........



Not at all. Let the allies have all those aircraft. That's why the Germans have the best range of AA, mobile and stationary.
Give me Germans manning flakvierlings and you can have all the aircraft you like.[sm=Evil-210.gif]









Oddly enough though, I find the best AA to be US M16's. Were they really this effective? I chew up troops so easily with them that it's sometimes embarrassing. The ultimate in obscene decadence. [sm=00000619.gif]

I agree, using german skdf6/2 AA against infantry and light armor is very effective. I'm using them in a campaign vs. the soviets, seems to be more effective than MMG or HMG. Musy have to do with range factors.



Riun T -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/18/2006 1:54:36 AM)

That and all the AA shells where HE!! unlike machinegun fire. RT



brador -> RE: What is a balanced visibility? (1/18/2006 5:05:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Riun T

That and all the AA shells where HE!! unlike machinegun fire. RT

Point taken! [;)]



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