Player discomfort? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> SP:WaW Training Center



Message


Afrika Korps -> Player discomfort? (1/14/2006 8:40:14 PM)

I have noticed in the tone of some scenario descriptions, as well as a few threads here, and on some other WWII gamer websites that there seems to be a general dislike of scenarios/games from the Japanese POV. Players seem to love to play as Germans, Soviets, and obviously the US, but seem to shy away from playing the Japanese...almost as if the spectre of what happened in the Pacific Theater somehow overwhelms the ability to "play" the game.

I am not pointing fingers or anything, everyone here has been fantastic to me since I have returned to playing SPWAW...don't get me wrong. This is just a general sense I have been getting and encountering. Am I incorrect? /me shrugs

Playing in the jungles of SPWAW is a lot different than the steppes of Russia, or the hedgerows of the Western Front. Almost like fighting in the Pacific is fighting nature, not just man...and the fanatical nature of some battles on either side makes it seem as though the players are fighting against a non-human tempest...

I am rambling...back to todays battle. [;)]





soldier -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/14/2006 9:23:12 PM)

I agree that this an area of WAW very much underdone but i also prefer european battles
I think a mega or long campaign as the japanese side has so much to offer. You would get to take on, China, UK, Anzacs, US marines, Philipines, USSR etc and the battles should theoretically get tougher as you go along. Taking on a variety of enemies and using different tactics for each would make it an interesting campaign.




Swamprat -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/14/2006 11:37:42 PM)

It is worth remembering that the war was won by the 'west'. And this game's contributers nearly all are westerners.
It may seem a glib observation, but the subconscious aspect of this, even among the most well-meaning, should not be ignored. The Germans we can relate to, in spite of the holocaust, because we put that down to a 'minority' elite element who were clearly mad. The Soviets were on our side, and even the Italians can be cuddly once you overlook Mussolini. But in the anals of the west, in most of our books and programs, the Japanese are 'odd' to us. Gassing jews in specially made chambers looks scientific and neat, even if the intentions were perverse. But slicing open POWs with samurai swords and charging tanks and aircraft carriers with explosives strapped on looks 'other' to us. The west does not understand the east, so we can portray them as savages of a kind, brutal in battle, illogical with their suicide, despicable with their 'stab in the back' at Pearl Harbour. We can portray them, and we do, much as we portray the Vietnamese, and the Chinese with their 'hordes' (which must mean they are inhuman, right?).
I've read and heard much that explains and, in a way, excuses Germany's reason to embark on a second world war. But the explanations for Japan are much less forthcoming. The mitigating circumstances aren't shouted so loudly, if at all. Perhaps we don't want to know the truth (it might be more embarrasing than we realise). Or perhaps we've portrayed the Japanese as such savages that we don't need a reason - it's clear, like so many James Bond baddies, that they just wanted to conquer the world because they were evil.

But SPWAW is just a game right? Right. But it's designers and contributers are human. And although all well meaning, are all bought up in the west and infused with the west's collective learning. And perhaps getting too fascinated with the Japanese is a bit too uncomfortable - like wanting to play the Serbs in a Bosnian war.

Or maybe I'm reading too much into this.

But my father-in-law, now passed away, fought in WWII (he was not my wife's natural father) on HMS Nelson; in the Atlantic and mediterranean. He didn't serve in the pacific. But he was at peace with the idea of Germans being friends again and fellow europeans, but to his dying day, he swore he could never abide the Japanese. And I'm not sure he ever met a Japanese person in his whole life. It's odd these cultural walls. Invisible, yet not intangible.




Afrika Korps -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 12:53:12 AM)

Thanks, swamprat...you captured pretty much what I am trying to get at.

I was brought up on stories about fighting the "Japs" around my house, it was not until I spent some time in Japan that I began to see things differently (during my military service).

The lack of information on the Japanese military compared to what we know about the German and Soviet war machines is astonishing (especially the Army, considering they were the ones in control of the government). I think that is why I find myself so interested now...SPWAW allows me to study the information, and try to apply it in an entertainment format for my own gratification. Perhaps in this way, the game makes it "safe"...but even I feel a slight unease with the whole thing...and I find that surprising and embarassing. [:o] And this makes me even more driven to explore this aspect of gaming and SPWAW.

Wow, entertainment and therapy, all rolled into one! [:D]




JediMessiah -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 1:00:05 AM)

heya,

another thing to take into account is that the pacific theatre battles are much different. as a shameless big cat lover, i dont like the low vis creeping along short range engagement with small, weak armor battles that happen in the pacific. not so much an objection to the people, but i prefer the european style of play. i have played a few games in the pacific, and found them nailbiters, but they almost seem to be an exercise in firepower an methodical, as opposed to some big grand sweepinf style tactics you can use in europe or the desert. the japanese have some neat units though, and i loved my first banzai bayonet charge...

maybe ill play another pacific battle after all :P

p.s. played a neat historical jap v sov battle against kayak. japan owned the sovs and we switched sides

-jedi




Afrika Korps -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 1:24:07 AM)

I have to say the few scenarios from the Japanese side that I have played so far have been really intense battles at close ranges. I look forward to adapting some scenarios that are already out there (when I learn more) to make them playable from the Japanese side...

EDIT: I love the big kitties too...and obviously my screen name captures my original WWII interests from childhood.




soldier -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 9:09:09 AM)

Some interesting points Swamprat. I do also find the japanese at war almost bizarre at times, certainly German intentions seem more sinister but theres a perverted logic to them and there attitudes or techniques towards warfare have a familiarity. Just check out Gunnys video clip under the True Fanaticism thread to understand the jap mentality towards war. Have gained some understanding into their reasons for going to war lately thanks to an excellent series about battleships but until then their motives seemed a bit mysterious and hav'nt recieved as much press as german reasons. It should also be remembered that the Emporer was still officially a God at the out break of war (now that one also strikes me as odd). Maybe I'm just ignorant

Can you imagine telling the japanese side of the story in a WAW campaign in the style of Das Reich, Now that would take a quality writer.... [:D]

I did start a hypothetical campaign about an invasion of Australia but it was from the Aussie side. Sorry to say I lost 2 good beach maps I'd designed and have stuck to playing ever since




KG Erwin -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 9:27:54 AM)

The Pacific Theater DID include a "fight against nature", especially in the South Pacific (the Solomons, the Bismarcks and New Guinea). The waether is usually horrid, and visibility poor vis a vis the battlefields of Europe. This is a factor that turns many players away.

I admire your efforts , AfrikaKorps. "Going Asian" requires a completely different mindset -- the ferocious close combat represented in SPWaW thankfully leaves out the racial hatred that fueled the "take no prisoners" attitude fostered by Japanese attitudes and American retribution.

Now, that being said, I have no problem with separating my sense of nationality when playing in Europe or North Africa. I could be the Germans .

However, in the Pacific, my American patriotism and knowledge of the history feeds my desire to kill every one of those inhuman Japanese fanatics. Don't get me wrong -- I admire the Japanese people as they are thankfully NOW some of our strongest allies. In game terms, though, they are fearsome opponents, and I derive great pleasure in wiping them out to the last man.




Puukkoo -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 12:36:58 PM)

I like to play with Finns, Romanians and Italians, even with 8.4's exp/mor values, but I'm Puukkoo.

I can tell you that when you manage to destroy a KV-2 using nothing but Romanian AT-Molotov, that gives you pleasure. And when you see your bunch of Italians growing into fierce warriors after several battles, you'll start to feel like Scipio Africanus when he finally encountered Hannibal at Zama.




Swamprat -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 2:25:12 PM)

Japanese atrocities appear to us as quite medieval. Slaughtering prisoners was normal then, and not that unusual even up the 17th century in places. It's normal in Africa right now.

In the 19th Century Japan was medieval, with a medieval system of feudalism and religion, long since forgotten in the west. It was also isolationist and distrustful of outsiders (the gaijin). It didn't bother anyone and it didn't want to be bothered. It was a pastoral, agricultural economy, deeply infused with tradition. America at the time was a rising capitalist economy. It was making inroads into East Asia, competing against Europe. Competing hard. America was a fast rising nation. Japan wouldn't open it's doors to America's trade. Japan rejected trade deals and expelled missionaries and merchants that the Japanese thought were trying to change japanese life (imagine muslims converting citizens in the US and ushering in Sharia law, for instance).
America wasn't about to leave Japan alone. The economic stakes in the world were too high. The potential market too lucrative. So US gunboats sailed into Tokyo harbour and shelled Tokyo. And the Japanese, having no guns or technology, could do nothing about it. Which of course was the whole point of the exercise, to show the Japanese leaders that the US was too mighty to resist, and it would be better for them if they just quietly open their doors and let the world in; more specifically, American trade. It was a minor incident in the west, but a humiliation to the Japanese.
So the Japanese were dragged into the world. And if they had to surrender to the new ways of the world, then they decided that they must learn to master it. So they sought the assistance of the Prussians in training their army (and not Tom Cruise or the Americans) in modern warfare. And they industrialised. And their economy grew. But Japan has no natural resources. And if they didn't want to be simply exploited by the US and European powers, then they needed access to them. But such access was controlled by the western powers. Japan was now an ascendent nation. And like all ascendent nation, it began extending it's 'spheres of influence'. In other words it started to carve out an empire. It did so in Korea. But it did so especially in China.

China was already the playground of the west. The British had subdued it the way they subdued the zulus, in order to be able to sell opium to the world. The US were in there too and had slaughtered the boxers during their rebellion. All over Asia the western white man was showing that he had the technology and the superior means. And he was importing his superior religion too. And his superior morals - affecting for instance Japanese erotic art and the rights of samurai to wear swords.
So when Japan went into China, the US reacted hard. Here was a real threat to US dominance in the region - the Japanese had learned from the west and had a technological army, modeled on western lines. And they were in a better position to control the vast and politically shattered country of China.
The US responded by cutting off oil supplies to Japan, using it as a lever to force Japan to abandon China. Japan was helpless against this. It's navy badly needed oil. It's industrial economy badly needed it. But if it back down now it could find itself coralled back on it's home island, watching the west take over all of Asia and making a mockery of those 'little yellow johnnies'.
The attack on Pearl Harbour did not come out of the blue. It was not a stab in the back - that's just a politician's phrase. It was a battle for sheer survival. It was David lobbing a stone first at Goliath, hoping to hit the eye because he would not survive Goliath's first telling blow with his club. It was pre-emptive strike, a dreadful gamble. It was a blow to ward off US might while the Imperial navy swept down through Asia, aiming for dutch oil fields. And it was a gamble that failed - in fact was probably doomed from the start.
It wasn't about the Japanese being evil and wanting to rule the world. It was Geopolitics, as practiced by all nations at all times, but without the face-saving pretexts that the west is so obsessed with but which the East (and the middle-east) just sees as ploys to cover up intent.
Pearl Harbour was the rebound from those shells that landed on Tokyo houses some 100 years before. But that's how geopolitics works in history. There are no baddies really, just actions, consequences and people's natural distrust of strange folk.




VikingNo2 -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 3:09:21 PM)

Try the IWO scenario its very fun IMO




soldier -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 7:12:18 PM)

Some intersting stuff
Funny how the west has such short memory of colonial days and is so shocked when someone strikes back at them (as fairly recent events have shown). I'm sure China remembers being carved up by European powers and the treatment they recieved in thier own country during years long gone by. Lets hope peacful intentions prevail into the future. Somehow I doubt it but thats geting off topic




Swamprat -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 7:32:30 PM)

Don't know what it's like for other civilisations or regions, but the short memory of the average westerner should be legendary. When we thought Iraq needed to be disarmed, we forgot who'd armed them. Now we think that Iran should be de-nucleared. And who built Iran it's first nuclear reactor? You guessed it, the USA. And it's still in service. [:D]




Riun T -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 7:41:06 PM)

I actually feel a great comfort in being able to say I have completed a long camp. as the japs, all be it played in 8.3 and with my own perticular spice. I must admitt that I saw the weakness of the armor before I even started but gave myself the option in purchase of useing alot of their allies the german and italians armor and got to peacefully and honourably retire my core force with a 57 score. RT




Puukkoo -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 7:50:52 PM)

I played Jap long campaign into the Philippines so it's still under way. I fought the first four battles against the Russians and I had no trouble with their armor having employed the triple AA-Guns as AT weapons. The Chinese were not much harm as the game allowed 20(!) Strike Elements to be used in a battle against them. My support points plus reinforcements were enough to buy 12 elements. Right now I just can't remember where I did save my campaign...




brador -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/15/2006 11:33:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Puukkoo

I played Jap long campaign into the Philippines so it's still under way. I fought the first four battles against the Russians and I had no trouble with their armor having employed the triple AA-Guns as AT weapons. The Chinese were not much harm as the game allowed 20(!) Strike Elements to be used in a battle against them. My support points plus reinforcements were enough to buy 12 elements. Right now I just can't remember where I did save my campaign...

What year did you start your campaign in ? I want to start one but can't decide when.




Korpraali V -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/16/2006 5:17:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brador

What year did you start your campaign in ? I want to start one but can't decide when.


Way to possibly get extra battle in world war II campaign:

Start from the beginning, I/39. Don't buy anything, just A0. Then look at the date you are given for the first battle (for example IV/40) . Then roll back. Start again the campaign one month earlier than it started automatically and see if you get one extra shot. I did with the UK in East Asia. You can try to roll two months back too but - at least in my test - it still gives you just one extra battle and then jumps to 'original' starting month.




Puukkoo -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/16/2006 3:51:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brador

What year did you start your campaign in ? I want to start one but can't decide when.


I started it in January 1939. I got four battles against the Ruskies. The game will offer you another front sometime, but don't accept if you still want to fight at Mongolia.

That extra battle trick I have never before heard of. I think the Jap campaign is anyway the most challenging out of those six.




brador -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/16/2006 5:20:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Korpraali V

quote:

ORIGINAL: brador

What year did you start your campaign in ? I want to start one but can't decide when.


Way to possibly get extra battle in world war II campaign:

Start from the beginning, I/39. Don't buy anything, just A0. Then look at the date you are given for the first battle (for example IV/40) . Then roll back. Start again the campaign one month earlier than it started automatically and see if you get one extra shot. I did with the UK in East Asia. You can try to roll two months back too but - at least in my test - it still gives you just one extra battle and then jumps to 'original' starting month.

Thanks Korp! I'll give it a try.




Procrustes -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/18/2006 8:01:55 PM)


If you are interested, I would recommend reading "The Rising Sun" by John Toland. It came out a while ago (early '70's?), but it's still an excellent read. (Won the Pulitzer at the time.) He had a Japanese wife and lived in Japan for some time - was able to interview many of the players on all sides of the conflict. Really gives you a better idea of what the biases and motivations were, and also a good idea of the ferocity of the conflict. (He's one of my favorite authors - check out his other books if you can.)

Best,




Afrika Korps -> RE: Player discomfort? (1/18/2006 11:39:01 PM)

Thanks Procrustes, Toland is on my bookshelf. [:D]




Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
3.5