Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns



Message

KG Erwin -> Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/15/2006 3:00:47 AM)

We're an international community, so I have no doubt that national pride DOES play a part in our discussions. Everyone knows that I'm an advocate of the United States Marines, BUT I have used my position to scale DOWN the USMC over the years, and to represent the reality of their inexperience in 1941-42. Those of you who have branded me as a pro-Marine fanboy have gauged me incorrectly. Some of the boys that were shipped to Guadalcanal had only five weeks of training. At one time they WERE considered super- Gyrenes. No more.

More -- gaining experience in a long campaign -- the USMC is a perfect example of this. Veterans were routinely transferred out to form the cadres of new units , so national experience levels steadily increased over the years. By 1945, the Corps had six divisions of the toughest combat soldiers that ever existed. This was a model for an elite combat force --stay small and instill experience into the new guys.



Korpraali V -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/15/2006 4:58:59 AM)

I think:

One thing that may seem as a national pride is that many times we just happen to know more about our own nations (or troops under our specific interest), and less about the others. That's natural. And when we don't know about the others, we may easily think that ours is the best one and the others just don't know it. Is it national pride or lack of knowledge? I don't know.

Good question Gunny.

It's natural to speak about what we know. But it's also necessary to get information about the 'others', and even from their point of view if possible.

Personal experience: One excellent document was made some years ago. It was about the Winter War and it was made by Russians from their point of view. It was really good to see how the war is/was seen by the 'other' side.



Dragoon 45 -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/15/2006 8:51:12 AM)

Gunny, We are all motivated to some degree by national pride. Some of us realize this and some don't. This is only natural for human beings. Every country had very good to elite troops in the war and at the same time had some bodies of troops who were worthless in a fight. The question is does everybody realize this fact. Most people disparage the Italians in the war, but the Italians had some very good troops in the Breslagari (sp) or some of their armor formations. For all the vaunted combat prowless of the Germans, they had some units that were next to worthless in the war. There are many cases of Germans troops on the Eastern Front retreating just as soon as their armor support left, without any attack from the Russians. Most of the American Infantry Divisions in 42 and 43 were not very good troops. Experience and morale has a lot to do with this subject.

I personally have very little respect for the French Army. My opinion of them is shaded by my experiences with them in an actual combat zone. But on the other hand I do realize that they do have some excellent soldiers among their ranks. My low opinion of them is overall based on the actions of their leaders. This brings me to a quote I have heard many times, "There is no such thing as bad troops, only bad leaders." I know this is kind of a cliche, but it is actually the truth in my experience. The leaders are who will make or break an army. With good leaders you will have good troops, and with bad leaders you get the picture.

Then when you get into the question of combat leaders, that is where the question of National Pride rears its head. Every country has its national hero's. Some of them deserve the accolades they received and some didn't. And it is only natural for someone to become upset when one of their national hero's is disparaged.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

We're an international community, so I have no doubt that national pride DOES play a part in our discussions. Everyone knows that I'm an advocate of the United States Marines, BUT I have used my position to scale DOWN the USMC over the years, and to represent the reality of their inexperience in 1941-42. Those of you who have branded me as a pro-Marine fanboy have gauged me incorrectly. Some of the boys that were shipped to Guadalcanal had only five weeks of training. At one time they WERE considered super- Gyrenes. No more.

More -- gaining experience in a long campaign -- the USMC is a perfect example of this. Veterans were rountinely transferred out to form the cadres of new units , so national experience levels steadily increased over the years. By 1945, the Corps had six divisions of the toughest combat soldiers that ever existed. This was a model for an elite combat force --stay small and instill experience into the new guys.




soldier -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/15/2006 9:33:55 AM)

I'm Australian with a Finnish mother and am understandably proud of the achievments of these two nations in WW2 (tough SOB's) but i have hardly discussed them here. I spend most of my time wondering why Italy and the rest are ranked 35 in comparison. National pride plays no part in that discussion, only the desire to see a better tactical wargame and a fair representation of soldiers who are now shown as complete dumbasses ?

35... cmon [8|]



KG Erwin -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/15/2006 9:47:31 AM)

Here's a point -- how many German nationals do we have? What's their POV in games like this?

The "German fans" seem to be mostly British or American. Why is that?



Puukkoo -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/15/2006 12:52:45 PM)

We do have few Germans here. Not a long time ago one wanted to censore the 'Hakenkreutz' from the German flag because he wanted no trouble. We must understand modern Germans and their difficult relation with the past. I think it's more just German and not really an international matter.

I have met at the IMDb many Germans who clearly are anti-nazi/anti-war patriots, they have a critical point of view but still they can't escape the fact that they are the Germans. In Germany there is always some kind of holocaust document on TV almost every day and the media is very leftist. That is the athmosphere you have to live in if you were a German.



VikingNo2 -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/15/2006 3:17:20 PM)

National pride has allot to do with it, but so does having a more fully kounded knowledge of ones country. IMO I relly don't see a problem with raising all the countrys exp and moral . If you are worried about fisrt time kills well lower the accuracy of units instead of moral and exp just my opinion



Puukkoo -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/15/2006 5:33:57 PM)

Don't touch the accuracy values. Exp/mor is more relative out of those two.



Mike Wood -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/15/2006 5:42:29 PM)

Hello...

The code defines average troops as 50. To the base experience value of 35, 1 to 20 points are added. This gives Italy an average score of 45, slightly below the general average. Elite Italian troops run about 55, sligthly above the general average.

Bye...

Michael Wood

quote:

ORIGINAL: soldier

I'm Australian with a Finnish mother and am understandably proud of the achievments of these two nations in WW2 (tough SOB's) but i have hardly discussed them here. I spend most of my time wondering why Italy and the rest are ranked 35 in comparison. National pride plays no part in that discussion, only the desire to see a better tactical wargame and a fair representation of soldiers who are now shown as complete dumbasses ?

35... cmon [8|]




brador -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/15/2006 5:44:55 PM)

Growing up in Western Canada in the 40's and 50's, it just wasn't readily acceptable to be German. My father is of Prussian descent, (although part of Germany since the early 20th century)and to avoid literally getting beat up they used to say they were of "Pennsylvanian Dutch" lineage. Anti-German sentiment was very strong during that era. Our last name was almost changed during that period. National pride meant not being German especially during that time.



soldier -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/15/2006 9:32:39 PM)

quote:

Hello...

The code defines average troops as 50. To the base experience value of 35, 1 to 20 points are added. This gives Italy an average score of 45, slightly below the general average. Elite Italian troops run about 55, sligthly above the general average.

Bye...


If I play a scenario with Italian base Exp at 40 there is still about a quarter of the force with exp at around 35. lower than the base, considerably lower than the average and this is when the Italian are at their peak. Play them in 44 and troops with 25/20 ratings are not uncommon. Now thats pretty low and Italian elite forces are still below average troop ratings. Is exp also deducted from the base ?



Puukkoo -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/15/2006 9:42:58 PM)

There are now two separate topics: Germans and the exp/mor values (again).

Personally I think that all exp/mor ratings less than 40 should have a damn good explanation. These are: unwillingness to fight for the particular army, sickness, exhaustion, incomplete combat training, little practise time on assigned weapons or vehicles and/or low quality of available manpower (too young or too old).



Dusan -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/16/2006 11:52:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puukkoo

We do have few Germans here. Not a long time ago one wanted to censore the 'Hakenkreutz' from the German flag because he wanted no trouble. We must understand modern Germans and their difficult relation with the past. I think it's more just German and not really an international matter.

I have met at the IMDb many Germans who clearly are anti-nazi/anti-war patriots, they have a critical point of view but still they can't escape the fact that they are the Germans. In Germany there is always some kind of holocaust document on TV almost every day and the media is very leftist. That is the athmosphere you have to live in if you were a German.


Yes, I agree. It is very sad to see what have became of the nation that was once one of the greatest. [:(]



264rifle -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/19/2006 3:01:30 AM)

Just ran across an old magazine in the basement that might give some peaple food for thought.

Sept. 1979 issue of "War gamers Digest" There was an article on the Waffen SS.

The author of the article was rating the different SS divisions as to "morale" to fit into a miniatures rule set called "Tractics" which had 4 catagories to rate troops. Elite, Veteran, Regular and Green.

OF the 41 SS divisions (some numbers were used twice) The author of this article rates 7 divisions as Elite, 4 as veteran, 10 as regular and 20 (almost 50%) as Green. Just one mans opinion.

I am not suggesting any changes in the current SS ratings. I am just pointing out that EVERY nation had both good and bad troops and the game designers have to represent them in a way that is also "FUN" for the gamers. SS troops with a morale/exp rating of 30/30 would be no fun.

Scenerio designers can of course (and maybe should[&:]) modify the ratings for a good scenerio.

That said, if a nations ratings are so low as to make the game almost unplayable ( don't know, haven't tried the new ratings yet) then the ratings should be looked at.



KG Erwin -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/19/2006 3:37:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 264rifle

Just ran across an old magazine in the basement that might give some peaple food for thought.

Sept. 1979 issue of "War gamers Digest" There was an article on the Waffen SS.

The author of the article was rating the different SS divisions as to "morale" to fit into a miniatures rule set called "Tractics" which had 4 catagories to rate troops. Elite, Veteran, Regular and Green.

OF the 41 SS divisions (some numbers were used twice) The author of this article rates 7 divisions as Elite, 4 as veteran, 10 as regular and 20 (almost 50%) as Green. Just one mans opinion.

I am not suggesting any changes in the current SS ratings. I am just pointing out that EVERY nation had both good and bad troops and the game designers have to represent them in a way that is also "FUN" for the gamers. SS troops with a morale/exp rating of 30/30 would be no fun.

Scenerio designers can of course (and maybe should[&:]) modify the ratings for a good scenerio.

That said, if a nations ratings are so low as to make the game almost unplayable ( don't know, haven't tried the new ratings yet) then the ratings should be looked at.


The "national ratings" are an average, which can result in a wide variance in the quality of the troops within a given core force with the national-ratings preference set "on" . For example, a 1942 Marine core force can have a few units with experience levels as high as 80-85 (a few Raiders/Parachute troops/engineers) , with others as low as 45-49 (the grunts given basic training and then immediately shipped overseas to fill out the TOEs of the combat units).

It averages out to about 58-59 exp points for the whole force. Given the fact that the previous Marine experience in WWII (until August 1942) was defeat after defeat, this represents the USMC as it was at Guadalcanal.

The only thing that even made them "average" was the number of officers and NCOs who had served either in WWI or the so-called "banana wars" of the 30s. A hardcore of combat-experienced personnel DID exist, and this helped the overall quality of the units entering combat for the first time.

This is just one example of how the ratings work. Other factors came into play in the ratings we now have. Quality of training, the health care system of the countries, national morale, trust in their government, standard of living etc. Taking all of this into consideration, do you really think that the average Soviet conscript of 1939-41 was better equipped and motivated to die for his country than the average American volunteer of 1941-42? Think about it. Put yourself in their place.

Now, after all that, the game code overlays all of the myriad factors of weapons quality, fire control procedures, radio communications, supply procedures, etc etc, and we have a reasonable facsimile of the fighting potential of a given country during the 1939-45 period, with qualities that change over time.

We can quibble over details, but the bottom line is, with all design factors in synch with the code, we get historical results, and that's what was intended.



Korpraali V -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/19/2006 3:44:45 AM)

Did the writer tell which divisions he meaned?

That's because many of the SS divisions were built either late 44 or early 45 in a hurry. You can see somthing about it for ex: http://www.militaria-net.co.uk/Waffen%20SS%20Divisions.htm
And when you compare the general ratings of Germans in SPWAW you can see that they'll drop significantly in 45. But as you said, in every nation there were 'good' and 'bad' troops. Somehow it just have to be presented generally. And the rest is up to designers... [;)]



KG Erwin -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/19/2006 4:43:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Korpraali V

Did the writer tell which divisions he meaned?

That's because many of the SS divisions were built either late 44 or early 45 in a hurry. You can see somthing about it for ex: http://www.militaria-net.co.uk/Waffen%20SS%20Divisions.htm
And when you compare the general ratings of Germans in SPWAW you can see that they'll drop significantly in 45. But as you said, in every nation there were 'good' and 'bad' troops. Somehow it just have to be presented generally. And the rest is up to designers... [;)]


Let me put it this way: The SS Das Reich of 1942 can't be compared to the SSDR of 1945, after so many casualties and the lowered-quality of new conscripts. This tendency was plainly apparent in the SS Panzer and Heer Parachute Divisions that fought in the 1944 Ardennes Offensive. The Reich was already scraping the bottom of the barrel.

We keep going around in circles, but the end result is always the same -- The Germans will ALWAYS lose, no matter what you do. The best you can hope for is a well-fought campaign or scenario.

"The battle is the thing", isn't it?



Afrika Korps -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/19/2006 5:12:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin


"The battle is the thing", isn't it?



I say the same thing as I send my Imperial Troops into the USMC grinder. BANZAI! [:'(]



Korpraali V -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/19/2006 5:41:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Let me put it this way: The SS Das Reich of 1942 can't be compared to the SSDR of 1945, after so many casualties and the lowered-quality of new conscripts. This tendency was plainly apparent in the SS Panzer and Heer Parachute Divisions that fought in the 1944 Ardennes Offensive. The Reich was already scraping the bottom of the barrel.



True. Also German division's strength was something different in practice than it ought to be in theory at 45. Not enough any kind of reinforcements.



Puukkoo -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/19/2006 10:44:35 AM)

German "division" in 1944-45 could also refer to a mere battalion. Germans losing the war even if they win all the battles in the Long Campaign is probably only question of survival for your troops.

As for the SS troops with exp/mor 30, there were some troops in the SS Police forces who were mostly motivated with the political ideology and their leaders too were nazi political activists and not proper soldiers. Such troops deserve considerably lower ratings anyway.



264rifle -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/19/2006 3:26:41 PM)

Gentlemen, the author of the article also mentions some of the "lower" quality SS troops shooting their own officers and running away from difficult tasks.

But I did not post this to try to change the SS ratings.

Repeating that many nations had both good and bad troops. The spread of quality may be outside of the games ability to model.

Other factors not in the game (or not properly modeled in the game) may affect morale if not experience.

U.S. Marines vrs Japanese, most combat on islands, small islands, no place to retreat to, for either side. Did Japanese retreat in New Guinea or Indo-china??
A Unit Knowing that it is out of supply, low on ammo, and food, and more IS NOT coming in the next few days (or weeks).
Training, Doing extra forced marches and push-ups and being told 20 times a day that the unit is "Elite" might not help their weapons skills but might make a unit push just a little harder or hold a little longer. What was Napoleon's quote on Morale? Morale is to material as 3 to 1.

Some minor countries had fewer AFVs in their entire army than the US and British had in ONE division. Given the usual obsolescence of the minor countries tank parks (Hungarian Fast Corps that attacked Russia on 27 June 1941 had 81 Toldis tanks, 48 Csaba armoured cars and 60 CV 35 Tankettes) Most armour to armour match-ups (rare as they would be to begin with) would be blow outs. And Major country armour vrs Minor country infantry would not be much fun either unless minor country was given an unhistoric amount of anti-tank equipment.

While scenerio designers can tweak things a bit better to suit ONE situation at a time the game does have to average things.

We have trouble even modeling AFV's which can be measured, timed and looked at. This is not usually subjective but mistakes and errors creep in. The game engine (maybe developed on 486 or older computers) does a fine job with average vehicles but gets a little confused with the odd-balls. Anything with a strange armament layout or crew layout gets strange game results. Take Italian Autoballinde car AB40 with 4 MGs. One fired by radio operater or rear driver over the engine covers to rear of vehicle. Two co-ax guns in turret (one man turret) and an AA gun on top of turret manned by same guy trying to shoot the turret guns. All guns fed by 24 round magazines mounted on top of the guns. How do you model this[&:]

Moral and experience are subjective. No one wants to see their "HOME" country near the bottom of the barrel.

Many things affect the out come of historic battles that can't be modelled in the game.
One story is told of a few British armoured cars capturing an Italian Engineer general and two lady companions out for a "drive" on the 15 June 1940. He also happened to have a set of detailed plans of the fortifcations around Bardia with him. The British put the plans to good use when they stormed the fortress in January.
How much does the average trooper get down graded to average in the General's stupidity?

We can tinker with the Morale ratings to get "historic" results in the game but maybe we are getting our "Historic" results for the wrong reasons. Maybe we can't get the right reasons into the game.



Puukkoo -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/19/2006 4:35:09 PM)

These "historic outcomes" only apply to the Long Campaign engagements, which are the most popular battles among the users anyway. The Italians who have 30 exp/mor are lead by a very poor general as well as the Soviets with low ratings are lead by Bolshevik propagada that sang praises of the "Invincible Red Army".

Only "true" history in SPWAW is represented by historical scenarios and campaigns, which are modelled as carefully as possible from actual sources. Creating an accurate historical scenario is just as tough task as writing an article for scientific journal. It is however much more easier as practically all the players just want action and don't pay too much heed on historical details.

The question of historicity is to large extent a "how much" question. If everything should be as realistic as the game engine can produce, we'd only have one or two scenarios ever made. It is also a matter of playability.



FNG -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/19/2006 7:26:03 PM)

First of all, vote Mike Wood for Supreme Ruler of the Universe (if you're looking for someone to run the Ministry of Internal Affairs, I'm your man [;)] )

The two biggest problems that I encounter with troop quality when playing the Long Campaign:

1. The countries with the lowest scores are IMHO too low and/or those with the highest are too high - either way I think the band is too wide.

2. Experience is gained far too quickly - I'm guessing the same formula is used for each battle?

I would really like to see an experience system similar to that seen in some role-playing games where skills are a percentile value: if a unit fulfils the criteria for an experience check, then a roll against 100 - current skill must be made to actually learn something. This nicely models the fact that when you don't know much, it is very easy to learn, but it then becomes less likely that you have picked up anything new from a similar experience. In SPWaW I guess the 'roll' could be weighted by factors from the battle; was it a draw, MV or DV? Did the unit score > 'x' kills? Did the unit take casualties?

If we say a DV is worth 2, some casualties worth 4 and a kill is worth 1, then an 85 exp unit would have a 22% chance of gaining 'x' experience (100 - 85 + 7 points of modifiers).

I would love it if it was a big deal when one of my units got to elite. I would also love it if infantry replacements to damaged squads cost points, and destroyed units were replaced by the basic version - not a copy of the dead one. Apart from the shock of losing elite Sergeant Drake "splendid chap, remember that time outside Bardia when he killed 47 Germans with a rusty penknife?" <or is it just me that empathises with my squad leaders?[:)] >, beyond the actual battle result, there is no down side to getting an experienced unit killed.

Oh, and an Italian long campaign, including the switch to co-belligerent, would be a fantastic addition if national ratings were adjusted. As stated by many others with greater knowledge than I, it is a myth that all Italian combatants were second-rate. Hans von Luck rated at least some Italian tankers very highly, some performed very creditably in Russia and they gave the British a bloody nose on several occasions (the British usually down-played any Italian role in Axis victories, giving credit instead to the Germans).

I'll crawl back under my rock now.



RockinHarry -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/20/2006 6:42:40 PM)

Beeing german, expressing something as "national pride" is still a delicate thing, at least in germany due to the known history. Since I did not have any choice where I was born almost 40 years ago (Aargh[X(] [:D]), I do not really see any reason to make more thoughts about that as necessary. [;)]Same goes for the wargaming hobby. I have better sources avilable for german stuff, but if it comes to just playing, I do not handle my virtual troopers any different. Hunting tigers with T-34 is oftenly more "fun" than hunting T-34 with Tigers. [8D]Same goes for the experience/morale rating in the game. I donīt see a reason to make germans stronger than they really were. At last itīs up to the "overall commander" playing the troops to get the most out of them. A bad commander playing crack germans will surely stand no chance against a superb commander playing other nations with worse ratings. [;)]Really not more to say about that topic.



Dusan -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/22/2006 6:17:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puukkoo
As for the SS troops with exp/mor 30, there were some troops in the SS Police forces who were mostly motivated with the political ideology and their leaders too were nazi political activists and not proper soldiers. Such troops deserve considerably lower ratings anyway.


Well, that's questionable. I think that the quality of troops depends on their experience/training + equipment + belief. And the last parameter should not be underestimated. Be in war is the ultimate sacrifice when men are facing the worst conditions and also risk their lives every minute. They have to have something, some reason to do this, if they are doing it only because they are forced to, that's no good. So the soldiers well "motivated with the political ideology" are knowing what they're fighting for and that would increase their morale (i.e. combat value).
The opposite could be seen in Vietnam or these days in Iraq where probably well trained and extremely well equipped American soldiers simply failed. Of course, even there the exception are elite forces (some Marines, Rangers, etc.) fighting well, because they were told so many times they're simply the best and can't fail, that they are believing in it. [:D]



Puukkoo -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/22/2006 6:23:52 PM)

I dunno...

Why...

No scenario has troops with exp 20 and morale 110. Some die hard wackos. But a good call there, Dusan.



Korpraali V -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/22/2006 7:20:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dusan

Well, that's questionable. I think that the quality of troops depends on their experience/training + equipment + belief. And the last parameter should not be underestimated. Be in war is the ultimate sacrifice when men are facing the worst conditions and also risk their lives every minute. They have to have something, some reason to do this, if they are doing it only because they are forced to, that's no good. So the soldiers well "motivated with the political ideology" are knowing what they're fighting for and that would increase their morale (i.e. combat value).


True and not true, I think. Some Finnish Winter War veterans write down their thoughts about particular SS troops' attacks on summer/fall 41. SS troops were extremely highly motivated yes, but they'd no combat experience. The results were unnecessary high casualties when running on open field towards the MG fire etc. Their idea was that being ûbermenschen will bring you victory with low casualties...

Another thing was when Soviets made their first counterattacks. "Was?! These Untermenschen cannot attack! Impossible!" The world view of inexperienced soldiers collapsed and the panic was close.

Source: Prof. Mauno Jokipii: Panttipataljoona

Of course these are radical examples - but still true ones. However in the defence and with some experience high motivation can make you to keep the positions even in hopeless situation. Examples of that can surely be found from every nations history (not only from Berlin '45 or Alby's logo [;)]).



soldier -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/22/2006 9:07:25 PM)

I think your both right.
Soldiers who have a strong belief in what thier fighting for are often some of the most fierce and fanatical, leading to bravery and extremes in combat. On the other hand they are often lead to believe that they are invincible and their world shatters quickly when they discover this to be false. The same can be said of thier enemies, When things didn't go as expected at Cassino the Allies began to believe that the defenders were all fanatical Nazis when in fact they were more likely very skilled and well lead, making the most of the advantages they had (They were Paratroopers not SS).
I like a scene out of Band of Brothers towards the end when a new recruit is worried he won't see any combat. Upon hearing that the SS are around one of the veterans says "looks like you'll get your wish, the Waffen SS, those guys are F----n crazy. Suddenly the recruit dosn't look so keen
[:D]



Puukkoo -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/22/2006 9:42:42 PM)

Terho!

All Finns at least should know Mauno Jokipii. There were a huge difference between Waffen SS forces and some Police SS troops. The 6th SS Division that fought in Lapland was actually a police unit that suffered heavy casualties under its incompetent leader. The unit attempted to take Russian positions by direct WW1 style charge and only took heavy losses without any considerable gains.

The politically motivated Germans were not any better than Soviets in the Winter War who were instructed by political commissares in addition to normal military commanders. The tactics used were all of large scale, where individualism played no part, which lead into distortion between concepts and reality.



Korpraali V -> RE: Does National Pride Really Play a Part in These Discussions? (1/22/2006 10:41:04 PM)

True. I know the difference. But the division those Finns (and Jokipii) were talking about was the 5th one, the Wiking. It was the Waffen SS unit. German soldiers in that unit were not veterans but mainly green ones. Later on the tactics of course developed due gained experience. But these were the first feelings of Finnish veterans about their officers: Lots of ideology but not much understanding of tactics.



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
0.953125