RE: Researching German A/C (Full Version)

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harley -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/6/2006 3:25:45 PM)

I'm on turn 347 (31 July 44) of my old OB103 game, and I've just shot down my 103rd Me262A.

I gave the AI a bit of a boost in research, now it's killing me. I lost 5 P-51D in one bounce by 262's the other day. I think he has had the 262 since March. All of the Zestoren Staffeln have converted, so even the Romy and Hungarians with 20xp are in for the kill... Lost 6 P-51D from 97th FS tonight for no kills. They were all bounces and attacks from behind...

Basically - if the AI can make a meal of it, then the human could really kick up a storm. Research is too easy for the axis... There needs to be some balance, vis-a-vis the credit system...




Speedysteve -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/6/2006 3:37:52 PM)

Hi Harley,

I'm with you there.

In one of my early game vs Axis AI I helped the Axis by 'popping in' from time to time to twqeak things and aid it with regard to production, AA placement, Gruppe movement etc.

As such by August 44 it was actually fielding a pretty formidable force. Especially with the combat bonus' it gets. The Dora and Ta152 were beasts. Even if a 51D bounced them I may lose a plane!

Steven



Nikademus -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/6/2006 10:18:37 PM)

In my game vs. Speedy, he researched time manipulation devices. Once activated the date of our game froze and everything stopped. Been that way for a while now [:'(]

(translation: where's my turn nutmeg?)




Speedysteve -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/7/2006 1:57:02 PM)

You wanting a WiTP turn or a BTR turn numb nutts? Choice is yours [;)][:'(]



Nikademus -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/7/2006 3:39:30 PM)

both would be nice Penquin boy

[:)]



Speedysteve -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/7/2006 4:30:06 PM)

Not too demanding then. I thought GF was bad.........



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/7/2006 5:42:12 PM)

well. i would be happy if i could make it... just a silly kraut [:D]



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/7/2006 5:55:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Roo

May want to consider for all the vauntedness of the 262:

Of 1433 aircraft flown off the Manufacturers fields, only about 500 were flown in combat (lack of fuel, probably lack of engines - 25hr life on some of the Jumo 004Bs, possible lack of pilots?).

The Me262 killed approximately 150 aircraft for the loss of 100 of their own (This would have changed with experience and increased deployment of the R4M rockets).


As for the stuff on the Metor, that was an aside, hence the 3-4 line feeds before it :s

Basically, some people seemed to jump on it as a piece of junk, which it isn't. The Meteor was easier to fly and maintain than the Griffon engined Spitfires (yes, I made a mistake - Griffon engine, not Merlin engine; likewise it was 130 grade fuel not 120 grade fuel).

As for the speed - Me163 was rocket powered, not jet powered. Probably what the writer intended to say, but he didn't for whatever reason - usually speed records are split by engine type - cf. Mallard as the fastest [steam-engined] train. (PS. Me163 is probably the worst plane that could be in the game - 16 kills for all those losses?!)


For the Me262.... as a fighter it is deadly against bombers, with R4M the fun is at german side.
But historically the germans misused the Me262 as a bomber. So its speed advantage was zero compared to the allied piston engine fighters. In a game we never would use it this way, esp. if we have no targets to bomb.
Also, the late use as a fighter reduced its efficence vastly. the allies ruled 100% the skies, could bomb any base at will and the quality of german pilots wa nil (beside some Experten)
The problems with the engines had been reduced by experience (so, 4 Months earlier used, they can solve these problems earlier) so instead of 10hours they reached 40, later 80 hours (with the same engines - but sure they reported problems that got fixed in later producion rows...)

The meteor was no piece of junk. But in the game it is. It has a low max. speed, no range and no advantage for the game. We still have no german bombers in the game they could kill. And the p51/p47 are simply better, also the Spitfire. So why should we waste a slot for this plane.

The comment about the mach-numbers... it is just a tip for the british-biased-seeing of the report. Just look about history-chanel-stuff. Looks good but basicly it is propaganda for the british army. (this is pointed to anything - not only ww2). With such stuff it is difficulty to show the real facts. Its like the 900 tigers fight at prochorovka-story a american "Historican" told, just because he had no knowledge about the real facts. But a lot books tell this numbers.

The Meteor in a later stage of development was an useful plane. But in the time we speak about (say until end of 45) it was no good plane, it was simply the first british war jet. But nothing else. And a combat between the war-time meteors with me262 had been a butchering. Any Spitfire/P51 would do better. That was my point.

It is just a game with limited mechanism, if you ask me i would like to have any plane in the game that had been used. For both sides. But it canīt be done - right HARD Sarge ?



Hard Sarge -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/7/2006 8:22:20 PM)

quote:

It is just a game with limited mechanism, if you ask me i would like to have any plane in the game that had been used. For both sides. But it canīt be done - right HARD Sarge ?


not sure I follow the line of thought ?

what we are trying to do, is get as many of the planes that did see action, into the game (in one of the OOB's we had the day FB version of the Beaufighter, but the AI couldn't handle how the numbers for the units worked (since it had no real slot) so we had to take it out)

{again, I say we alot, JC was the programmer, I just a tester, but is easyer to say we as i try to explain something)

with the base verison of the game, we were locked into so many slots for each side, so what they tried to do, is to add in the planes that were made the most, seen the most action, or were a interesting sideshow (G-50, a worthless plane by 1943, but it was around, not many players will use it long though)

which we now have more slots and more pilots, so we can try to do much more with the game

(I would like to have a OOB with a restricted plane set, based on real life, no improvements for either side, no reseach, you get what you get, when they got it, and then have a OOB for a what if, or what could of been (willing to bet more people play the 2nd then the 1st)

which in the long run, we may even have some planes you would not be expecting to be in the game, I am just not sure how they are going to work :)

(we trying to get the BAF in, we may get a unit of YAK 9 DD's in (Stalin send some to It to help out Tito, if we can get the info, and have the time, we may get a lot of stuff in, then again)



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/7/2006 9:28:07 PM)

well my comment was about Meteor, useless in the game (cause of the limitations) and my dream would be a game, 1939-45, with any plane on all sides, including ground support for germans and russians, the fightings there (generally zones you have to send your planes and pilots)...

The two versions of the game sound good for me. you will still have the problem with german production numbers (say a large production site is bombed to pieces and you need to shift production). Say the me262 jump in in july 44, you still can switch the numbers (say tripple of the historical numbers) and you also can use em as fighters.

But in the second i would still dislike the idea of some posters here that the allies need a "counterplane" for the jets or game limitations like air cover catch jets in med or high alt (because you need if for game balance)

On the other side - if not too much work - the industrial targets should change. Now the player knows exactly what factory is at what location. That is extremly unrealistic. Better would be a plan with existing places and with recons and Ultra you recive more informations. But still if you look for 20 times, you canīt say if this factory produce engines for tanks or for planes (not with only recon flights)
Maybe this should increase with the invasion and in the conquered territories, but not in the german hearthlands... But i know it would be a huge job to chance some locations (maybe just switch em) and change the icons on the map. Same for BOB. They just estimated some targets. But never know what they attacked.
In BTR/BOB the bombing side as every knowledge

Oh, and please forget the scoring system
We do not need such scores (with it we know how succsessful a attack was - even if we do not see a recon result) Let it in the game for AI, but not for pvp.. i just would love more fog of war... a huge problem in any game... just look for witp... you have air fights.. but you know exactly how many planes you shot down (or got lost by ops losses !!! i mean, a japanese training accident in tokyo is at your shelf the same day ! Even the exact plane is seen. that is silly)

is this doable ?
Okay wishes
a.) more fog of war
b.) less informations about the kind of industry we attack
c.) less informations about the enemies losses - esp. the bomber kills were highly overestimated. So if a player use these numbers he got wrong numbers.
At the end of the game you can compare the named kills and the real kills (should be easy to do ?)
d.) less detailed informations about the enemies planes (your informations rise with more contacts... say Doras jump in and you learn something about em. As long as your pilots do not know them they are not so prepared to fight against em (make a experience-check. Say, a p47D with a trained pilot and no knowledge got a 20% chance to kill the dora (say here is also a trained pilot, both fatigudeZero), with the knowledge about the plane it rise to 25% in this alt.... i hope i am clear in what i want to say ?)

Just let us talk german, everything would be much easier (for me [:)])



Hard Sarge -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/8/2006 3:18:49 PM)

I follow

your english is very good, better then mine (just wasn't following the train of thought)

over all, I still do not think the 262 was the superweapon, it is sounding like from your posts (I a flight simmer, I love most GE planes to start with, so not GE anti Bias here)

could it of been a war winner ? in 1943 yes, very much so, in early 44, shaky, in late 44, no way

from most of what I have read, the Allies wern't worried about it, it was there, so what, like Yeager said when asked what he thought of the GE Jet "whats the big deal ?, the first Jet I ever saw, I shot it down"

(the idea of the jet, if it had came out when it could of, it could of been a terror, if the He 280 had come out in 42, the bomber campaign would of been over before it began, the 262 was the better plane, but the 280 could of been out much faster)

intel

hmmm, I got to disagree with you here, the Allies had tons of info on what was what and what was where (they had all the info they needed on the rocket program, they just didn't know it, the GB expert on rockets said it couldn't be done, and if it could, it would look like this, which of course was not what the Recon birds were seeing, so that info was written off, later once they found out, they were able to go back and look and were they upset, it was stareing them in face for a long time)

a AFAC, the Allies knew what was making aricraft and what kinds (with in reason, a BF 109 is a 109, is it a G2/G6/G10, that is HARD to say from recon)

you could tell in a oil field what plants were running and which wern't, by the smoke stacks

now numbers and what not, I agree, but not they didn't know what anything was, plus they had a lot of Intell from people who lived there, passed though there

not sure on the score, we getting some of the same about BoB, it is a game, how do you say who is winning or losing, with some kind of score to check or follow

I am sure most people playing BoB would be upset if on the 20th day, the game ends and it is stated that the GE won, Gee I thought I was doing a good job, why did I lose, damn AI cheats

fog of war ?, hmmm, hassle, lots don't like the recon system in the games now, with a heavier FOW, we need more recon to have an idea of what is going on (which to me sounds good)

maybe a option ? full intel, limited intel, no intel ???? (only what you see or recon)

that is a tricky one, what would make you happy would make others sad, what would make you sad, would make others happy

hiding the stats on the planes, on the factories would be fine, but for the players, the game is based on numbers, if there are numbers in the game, the players are going to find them, one way or another

( I mean, there is no EFAC with the name of JUMO JET ENGINE PLANT, but players looked around and found out and said, hey, did you know that the EFAC Enfert Autowerck was making Jumo Jet engines)




Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/8/2006 4:48:45 PM)

Hehe - you are a liar. My english is cruel... esp. my grammar (and my teachers told me, too)

For the infos...

well - my idea of the me262 is not that it could win the war. That is impossible.
If the allies had to fight against it in numbers, the allied bomberlosses will explode. But if the allies change to low level bombing raids (with huge losses to flak) they can avoid the jet-advantage. So i doubt that the germans could have win the war with it. I agree with the He280, with all we know today it could have been combat ready in spring 43... latest sumer 43.. with this, the allied bomber strategy had ended (they would have no bases to destroy german industry the way they did - but i bet they would find another way)

My thinking is in the game. The me262 is just to bad against bombers and "in combat" to easy to shot down. As i said, i like the idea of hunting and obseving its bases... like the allies did.

For yeager - well just think about such comment from Hartmann. If he had said "i battled the p51, no great plane, one engagement, 7 kills" would you say this would be true for all p51 and all american pilots ? No. And - honestly do i doubt that yeager really thought that. I bet this was made a big pr for the national pride. And also, the chance it was a bomber-jet is high too.

We have simply the what-if-problem from turn 1.

For intel - sure the informations exist.
And you are true about the factories easy to recognize. But if you build a complex and produce things - in the game you see em (like the evil "used base"-Stupid bs... in the second a player transfer a air group into a base the enemy see it)

So the basic informations should exist - but everything new have to be seen. As i said - the chance for recognizing is high in occupied areas, but lower in "german" areas.

A new target i would love to bring in is the research center (the germans had some)... only by random and seldon Ultra-informations these targets could be recognized and if bombed - could delay a research (killing the scientifics and important prototypes...)
Also the german player should be able to build the "mittelbau -dora"-facilities and if not recognized could put some factories in this secure area (bombing proof).

So recon and destroying important targets in time is much more important in the game

The score. Well here my opinion is to ignore this for the ingame. As long as we play, we want to defeat the enemy.
We get results (like "20% of the german ball bearing is destroyed). But not the "i have to destroy this plant and then exactly 457 out of 2741 points is destroyed"-thing.

Give the player the informations (with misinformations - some could not even correct by recons) also about killing/damaging the enemies planes...
only in the end, you see your numbers, his numbers and the correct numbers. This would improve the realism of this game.
Now - you can add the numbers... say the americans loose 1204 B17G, recive 900, so the german player know exactly how many the allies have. But a number of "1700 bombers destroyed or damaged" is less detailed and this misinformations help the game.

And the last point. This is something i would like to replace in a what-if. You change any numbers and locations.Then make a information scan (say the Ultra-informations) and the allied player think he knew what factory is at what location with what numbers. (that is not historicaly correct - so it should only be in a what if-scenario)
For the allied side, i would love such thing - i do not know anything

The gameplay will change to
- AS
- Recon
- AS
- Recon
- Destroy important targets (this helps the germans to counterattack)
- Destroy em another time
- AS

And show not the true numbers... never. Only the fictive analysis of the recon groups - so if you bomb a factory and do not recon it, you know nothing. Like the allies had to do.

Oh - please reduce the numbers of LW-Planes ready to fight. Only if the allies do not attack say 2 weeks a target these numbers should grow. Or if the german player spare so many planes and pilots he can mount a big hit.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/8/2006 5:45:42 PM)

Well, again, I don't think your English is so bad (compared to mine, it is good, so no lie intended)

(don't forget, you have school talk and real talk)

(maybe that should be speak ?)

oh well

well, I am a big fan of Bubi, and while he did a have a few good days vs the 51, he also said they surprised them and the next time they met, it was a different story, also, while not being shot down by one, it was only because he bailed out before they did, overall, he had nothing but good things to say about it

I understand and follow your points, I am just not sure how to get it into the game that way

yea combat intel is strange in the game, you go to the after action report, and you get all wild claims, but then go to summery or the losses page and you get down to the last plane details

not sure which is better (of course, I really hate to catch a 24 plane raid and rip it apart and then see that I claimed I shot down 300 planes)

mittelbau -dora, well, there are a lot of things JC wants to add, change as far as Ecc are, even with all the detail in the game, we still just have a basic General grouping of targets, we don't have the barges, canal system, rolling stock (yet ?) alot of the areas are just made up and fudged

others are right and others are wrong, lots are made up and lots are missing (I think some of what JC knows about the GE factory system, would of gave some of the experts at the time, a run for there money, of course, he has hindsight and reseach to help, but still)

HOPEFULLY
we can get some others to start pitching in, to get a better feel on some of this



HMSWarspite -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/8/2006 9:33:24 PM)

I am with AM on the aircraft losses thing. I would like an option were the only thing you can see is the after action reports (with aircraft types maybe added). It is pointless to have the pilots claims at present - who uses them. This could be a realism option - super extreme FOW. You could (with this option on) change the loss pages to be the sum of your pilots kills claims. I would (as an added refinement) suggest that in actual fact you get all of yesterday's claims added to the total as claimed, but progressively less wild totals as the data gets older (to reflect operational research, counting wrecks etc). Maybe an example:
Day 1. Real losses 100. Claims 300. Total shown 300
Day 2. real lossed 0 (say weather). Claims zero. Total shown 280 (the 300 has been revised down a little by checking)
Day 3 Real losses 50 claims 123. Total 373 (=day 1 now revised to 250, + day 2 zero, all day 3 claims)

And so on. Losses for a given day would stabilise after say 1 or 2 weeks at actual +/- 20% or something. At present you get a better idea of the enemy aircraft readiness in the game than the enemy had of their own position in RL!

To be totally consistant this 'extreme masochist FOW' would also need a couple of other of AM features, like no 'level 3 messages' option and more erratic raid tracking. How's about no visibilty of Ge interceptors until in visual range, on the playback?



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/8/2006 9:44:10 PM)

yes - i like your addon-s...

you see just the things your pilots report !

So if a new plane attack your planes, you get some informations, but only after some time you get the real name... for both sides... but if the germans shot down a new allied plane they got a better chance to learn about it, the allies in occupied countries, too.

The "shot-down-list" should be not to exact. 20% sounds little for me.
If your pilot can see the plane explode and the parts fly around, this is a 100%-kill.
But esp. for Bombers that report shot down fighters, these numbers canīt be checked but if your Group-comanders are experienced they give a good bet, if they are unexperienced, these numbers will not be reduced. So over all, these numbers are good for propaganda, but not for statistics (these numbers should be only after the game ends visible (in a second row)... that would be great.

Again - true for both sides, but german "kills" are better reported (by the strict kill confirm system and - more important because the destroyed planes normaly fall onto german ocupied ground. But that would be very great.



Adnan Meshuggi -> RE: Researching German A/C (2/8/2006 9:48:40 PM)

yeah Bubi was a "fan" of the p51... i just tried to show the picture about Yeagers words (if he really had said them he is lesser as he could be)

Anyway... the extreme fow should not the way it was in btr... the numbers should be a little more realistic... and then make the real numbers invincible... so the enemy do not know really how well his Air war is.

Make other "point-things", but if AS is 7 you know how many enemy planes this could mean. Cause you know your own. So lessen the point-rules in the game, make great statistics for the end. The points are still here, but they are not longer needed in game turns to "win".

But i have to leave now - must go to wife [:D]



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