Dumb question from an MF non-follower (Full Version)

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Temple -> Dumb question from an MF non-follower (2/16/2006 6:10:56 PM)

I haven't really been following MF development as I'm much more of a gamer than a sports fan. However, I do like sports games from a coaching/management aspect and I'm most likely going to get MF because I like interesting and unusual game engines.

My question concerns the The Play Development System (PDS) and the AI. I'm assuming there are some stock defense formations. Let's say I design some really dumb offensive play. I then set up a game situation where I can call my dumb offensive play against the stock defensive formation. Would it be true to say that each time (or pretty much each time) I'll take a yardage loss (or an incomplete, if pass)? In other words, is an AI defense capable enough to react to whatever oddity I happen to develop as an offensive play?

I know this is a bit of an oddball question. I really don't follow football but I find the idea of designing plays against a smart AI defense interesting. To me it would a fun sandbox-type of experience to learn why football formations are planned in certain ways by experimenting with really off the wall formations.

On an off-topic, anyone remember an old Strategy & Tactics magazine board game called "Scrimmage"? You controlled players on an individual basis on a hex grid of (I think) one yard per hex and one second per turn. Really great way to see football as a game of individuals, but a single down took about a half hour to play!



Guderon -> RE: Dumb question from an MF non-follower (2/16/2006 6:37:30 PM)

You're really dating yourself with the 'Scrimmage' reference! You must be a fellow OG. (Old Gamer or Old Guy - your choice[;)]) But yeah, I remember 'Scrimmage'. An interesting but deeply flawed game if memory serves. I was playing a game with a non-football fan friend of mine, and he asked me why you couldn't block guys from behind. I told him it was just one of the rules of football. So what he started doing was turning his guys backs towards my players, thereby creating unblockable guys! [:D] You could move guys some of their movement and save enough movement points to turn them around at the end of their move. It cracked me up when he started doing that, but in game terms it was quite effective! Only a non-football person would ever have thought of doing that....



Temple -> RE: Dumb question from an MF non-follower (2/16/2006 7:27:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Guderon

You're really dating yourself with the 'Scrimmage' reference! You must be a fellow OG. (Old Gamer or Old Guy - your choice[;)])


My first wargame was Tactics II in 1962 [;)]. I was nine but I really got interested in them early. I started subscribing to Strategy & Tactics at about issue five or so when I first heard about them. My first sports game I remember was Avalon Hill's Football Strategy (link) which I picked up sometime in the mid-60s. I remember in 1972 playing it against a fraternity buddy and rolling boxcars on the last play of the game, winning with a long pass (or something like that). He said that was "stupid" and never played board games again [:D]




Dark Horse -> RE: Dumb question from an MF non-follower (2/16/2006 7:53:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Temple

I haven't really been following MF development as I'm much more of a gamer than a sports fan. However, I do like sports games from a coaching/management aspect and I'm most likely going to get MF because I like interesting and unusual game engines.

My question concerns the The Play Development System (PDS) and the AI. I'm assuming there are some stock defense formations. Let's say I design some really dumb offensive play. I then set up a game situation where I can call my dumb offensive play against the stock defensive formation. Would it be true to say that each time (or pretty much each time) I'll take a yardage loss (or an incomplete, if pass)? In other words, is an AI defense capable enough to react to whatever oddity I happen to develop as an offensive play?

I know this is a bit of an oddball question. I really don't follow football but I find the idea of designing plays against a smart AI defense interesting. To me it would a fun sandbox-type of experience to learn why football formations are planned in certain ways by experimenting with really off the wall formations.


i'm guessing that a really off the wall offensive play would not be specifically handled in a stock defensive profile. Of course, no one would be able to truly anticipate a crazy play. i'm assuming when something like this comes up the defense would go to a conservative defense, with the front seven reading and defensive backs playing zone. Or at least that's how i'd set up my profile.

And the success of the play would still be decided by what players you had performing which roles. If you line your TE under center to take a snap and have him drop back and throw a pass, his pass strength and pass accuracy would come into play. If you have a WR lead blocking for your TB, his strength and blocking will come into play.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Temple
On an off-topic, anyone remember an old Strategy & Tactics magazine board game called "Scrimmage"? You controlled players on an individual basis on a hex grid of (I think) one yard per hex and one second per turn. Really great way to see football as a game of individuals, but a single down took about a half hour to play!


Wow, i never knew a game like this existed. Before computers and hand held games, when i got a football jones, i'd line up checker pieces (or chess pieces or spare change) on board and move them around in such a manner. And in school we played football on paper, using a book to give us random number moves each turn.



DandricSturm -> RE: Dumb question from an MF non-follower (2/16/2006 8:18:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Guderon

You're really dating yourself with the 'Scrimmage' reference! You must be a fellow OG. (Old Gamer or Old Guy - your choice[;)]) But yeah, I remember 'Scrimmage'. An interesting but deeply flawed game if memory serves. I was playing a game with a non-football fan friend of mine, and he asked me why you couldn't block guys from behind. I told him it was just one of the rules of football. So what he started doing was turning his guys backs towards my players, thereby creating unblockable guys! [:D] You could move guys some of their movement and save enough movement points to turn them around at the end of their move. It cracked me up when he started doing that, but in game terms it was quite effective! Only a non-football person would ever have thought of doing that....


Turning your back to an oncomming blocker (At least at the last moment) negates a clipping call. And I have seen it done, so not only non football people would think of it. My son had a player on his team who was afraid of contact and would try this. Sometimes a flag was thrown but was picked up.
quote:

Clipping. The clipping rule was written so that a player should not be hit from behind by an opponent he cannot see. Clipping is a 15-yard penalty. Blocks from behind and below the waist are clipping. A block from behind above the waist is an illegal block in the back, a 10-yard penalty. As with blocking below the waist, the legality of the block and whether it constitutes clipping is usually dependent upon the initial contact. Protection is not provided a player who turns his back to an oncoming blocker when the blocker has committed himself in intent and direction of movement (NFHS 2-5; NCAA 2-4).



Marauders -> RE: Dumb question from an MF non-follower (2/16/2006 10:55:53 PM)

quote:

Turning your back to an oncomming blocker (At least at the last moment) negates a clipping call. And I have seen it done, so not only non football people would think of it.


That is correct. That is why so many flags are picked up on illegal block in the back calls made on kick returns. One officials sees just the end of the play while another sees that the player had turned.

quote:

My question concerns the The Play Development System (PDS) and the AI. I'm assuming there are some stock defense formations. Let's say I design some really dumb offensive play. I then set up a game situation where I can call my dumb offensive play against the stock defensive formation. Would it be true to say that each time (or pretty much each time) I'll take a yardage loss (or an incomplete, if pass)? In other words, is an AI defense capable enough to react to whatever oddity I happen to develop as an offensive play?


I believe you will find that your formations will be limited by the rules of the game. In American rules, there must be five down linemen that must be covered on the line of scrimmage by two ends. If you count the quarterback, that is eight of the eleven players already accounted for. Being that no other player may set up on the line limits this further. Canadian and indoor rules have similar restrictions.

Almost any formation that you may call dumb has already been used in real games. The question is whether the AI can handle players being set up in strange formations. That is a good question. AI breaking plays are generally not allowed in leagues, and people who use them in personal play are deceiving themselves as to how good a coach they really are.

The defensive AI, from what I hear, should be able to handle some situations, but it is obvious from the results we have seen from game examples that the defensive AI is not good enough on its own to handle even the plays that are built into the offensive playbooks. Some work will have to be done to even the playing field.




Panzeh -> RE: Dumb question from an MF non-follower (2/17/2006 12:55:31 AM)

Speaking as a former player(punter) in flag and HS, a lot of blocks in the back happen in the punting game because you have to transition from the punt rush/blocking to blocking/pursuit.



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