[newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast?

[newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (Full Version)

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pcasey -> [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (2/17/2006 8:33:29 PM)
I've played a couple of games vs the AI as Japan, and one of the things I've been working on was trying to take the DEI as fast as practical. I'm better than I was in my first game, but I'm sure I'm way sub optimal at this point, so I thought I'd see if some of the more experience folks could offer me some advice on how they do it? What I usually do is grab Jolo on like December 10, with a force that includes a base force, and then immediately ship in a bunch of betties and a single zero group. That pretty much allows me to dominate the PI. Under that aircover, I then quickly take the north and south coasts of the island between Jolo and Java (Borneo?) and the kind of spide shaped island south of Jolo. At that point I feel like I control the sea in the DEI so I pretty much stop worrying about the area and mostly play a land campaign to take singapore, then shift those troops south into Sumatra and Java under LBA, allowing me to move my fleet somewhere else (like New Caledonia). I suppose my questions are, how does a strategy like this play out vs a human player? Is there a better approach?

Mynok -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (2/17/2006 9:17:00 PM)
That generally will work. You have to be a lot more careful with a human, of course. It's a good principle to take Kuching, Jolo, and Davao with infantry and base forces early. This gives you pretty undisputed control of the sea areas in the Philippines, Macassar straits (between Borneo and Celebes) and the northern coast of Borneo and Sumatra. Those are all critical sea zones for invading your important oil bases of Palembang, Brunei, Balikpapan and Tarakan. Those are the ones you will want to secure first. I usually take Brunei and Miri first (Borneo North). Then Balikpapan and Tarakan (Borneo South) followed by Palembang (Sumatra). I do not take the latter until after the fall of Singapore. I also do not take it unless I have the ability to immediately stage at least two fighter groups there to prevent Allied bombers from Batavia blitzing my oil fields. It can be beneficial to invade Java before Sumatra if you see the allied player withdrawing there and consolidating in Batavia and/or Soerabaja. The latter can be a tough nut if he gathers most of the Dutch forces there and builds lvl 9 forts--which is doable if you wait until Sumatra and Celebes(spider) have fallen. Another important port/AF is Kendari. This my second AF objective. Some people take this early even before Jolo. I don't. I usually use a small CVL force to cover my operations in this and the Amboina area. So the general operational plan is: North Borneo/Davao/Jolo -> South Borneo/Kendari/Amboina/Sorong -> Singapore (falls before I go to next stage) -> Sumatra -> Java/Celebes/Timor Para's (you have a bunch on Taan and Tainan) are very useful in the Celebes and Timor areas to take far away spots quickly. Use your Tina transports and their tremendous range from Kendari and you can take lots of those Timor islands without risking ships getting attacked from Darwin.

niceguy2005 -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (2/17/2006 11:15:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mynok That generally will work. You have to be a lot more careful with a human, of course. It's a good principle to take Kuching, Jolo, and Davao with infantry and base forces early. This gives you pretty undisputed control of the sea areas in the Philippines, Macassar straits (between Borneo and Celebes) and the northern coast of Borneo and Sumatra. Those are all critical sea zones for invading your important oil bases of Palembang, Brunei, Balikpapan and Tarakan. Those are the ones you will want to secure first. I usually take Brunei and Miri first (Borneo North). Then Balikpapan and Tarakan (Borneo South) followed by Palembang (Sumatra). I do not take the latter until after the fall of Singapore. I also do not take it unless I have the ability to immediately stage at least two fighter groups there to prevent Allied bombers from Batavia blitzing my oil fields. It can be beneficial to invade Java before Sumatra if you see the allied player withdrawing there and consolidating in Batavia and/or Soerabaja. The latter can be a tough nut if he gathers most of the Dutch forces there and builds lvl 9 forts--which is doable if you wait until Sumatra and Celebes(spider) have fallen. Another important port/AF is Kendari. This my second AF objective. Some people take this early even before Jolo. I don't. I usually use a small CVL force to cover my operations in this and the Amboina area. So the general operational plan is: North Borneo/Davao/Jolo -> South Borneo/Kendari/Amboina/Sorong -> Singapore (falls before I go to next stage) -> Sumatra -> Java/Celebes/Timor Para's (you have a bunch on Taan and Tainan) are very useful in the Celebes and Timor areas to take far away spots quickly. Use your Tina transports and their tremendous range from Kendari and you can take lots of those Timor islands without risking ships getting attacked from Darwin. Speaking as an Allied player, I have to agree with Mynoks breakdown. I had this gammit used against me recently. I think Key bases for Japan are Kuching, Kendari and Tarakan. From those, with proper air and sear power the Japanese can quickly neutralize ABDA forces and isolate the ground troops. That is really the key, at least against a human player. YOu don't want to give the Dutch the chance to consolidate their forces. Java is tough no matter what because of the 3 (or is it 4) Dutch Rgts there. With high level forts one can hold out a long time.

esteban -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (2/18/2006 2:06:24 AM)
Two things that I would suggest. 1) Don't take Palembang or Tobali until you land and take Batavia and eastern Java. Otherwise the Allied player can bomb these key resource/oil centers from Java. Kuching and Pontianak/Singkwang are just as good if you want to dominate the Macassar Straits and they are you don't risk having the Allies damage resource centers that you will need. 2) Skip Jolo and Davao on the first wave, and attack Cagayan instead. If you have a good bombardment force covering your landing force, you can take out a number of the Allied players B-17s and a couple AKs while getting a size 4 airfield for your Nells/Betties. Get Jolo and Davao later on.

Mynok -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (2/18/2006 7:37:21 AM)
In my albeit limited experience, my opponents have withdrawn both the B17s and AK from Cagayan on the first turn. I take Davao to hopefully catch those AKs and sink them in their flight.

esteban -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (2/18/2006 6:47:38 PM)
If you use your Palau invasion force, you can hit Cagayan on Dec. 7 I usually strip out the CAs in the Ryjuo air combat TF to bombard Cagayan. Sometimes I detach a bombardment group from Formosa to help. Mind you, I almost always play with a house rule that you cannot give orders to ships that are in port on Dec. 7 That allows the Japanese to launch a Pearl Harbor/Manila/Singapore port strike (another house rule limits the Japanese to one port attack on turn one, that has to use carriers) and keeps the Allies from getting overrun by 20-30 turn one invasions.

hawker -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (2/19/2006 1:11:05 AM)
quote: If you use your Palau invasion force, you can hit Cagayan on Dec. 7 I alway take whole Mindanao in first wave,land in every bases and in day two you have whole Mindanao,simply. Invade Kuching,Miri,Brunei,Jasselton,Sandakan on day one. On day two Kuching is conquered and used as naval and air base. Promptly start bombard Palembang with 5 BB which you can assemble in Kuching. 35 th bde which conquer Davao can sail to Tarakan under protection of 3-4 BB. You dont need CVs here,use baby KB to support Rabaul invasion and take PM early. After Tarakan promptly take Balikpapan with 35th bde,meantime take Ambonia and put Nells there. Sail from Kuching under CV protection to take Palembang while your BB fleet destroy Batavia AF. Result: Palembang is taken slightly before Singapore and you can attack Jawa with 3 divisions and support,others can go to India-Manila(if current units not enough). Till 15.2 you have whole Borneo,whole Phillipines except Manila,whole Malaya,Rabaul and adjacent islands,PM,Celebs,Ambonia. Jawa invasion must be taken with carefully,take 3-4 divisions,tanks,enginers,air support units etc.,and sail from Singapore under protection of KB,when armada is one day away from Jawa land paras in Merak and start disembarking. Till now BB fleet destroys Batavia and you can start bombardment runs in Sorebay with 6-7 BBs,rush from north and you can destroy Jawa quickly,then take Timor and adjacent islands. On 1.5.1942 you will have all places that Japan historically take plus some other places. Now you can start planning unhistoricaly and attack India or Russia or Noumea or Australia etc...

hawker -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (2/19/2006 1:12:57 AM)
Forget to say, Destroy force Z on day one,dont let them to interfere with your plans. Forget Manila and bombard Singapore with KB.

Nemo121 -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (4/5/2006 5:00:11 PM)
What about aiming for isolation rather than driving through their strength. Sure you'll lose more shipping on the return trip but I am currently in a game where I've taken Soerabaja, Koepang & Kendari and have left most of the bases on the "inside" of the perimeter to be taken by follow-on forces. Sure my losses to enemy bombers amongst my APs, AKs and auxiliaries are high but the pay-off is even larger. I fully expect to have Java and the rest of the DEI ( excepting the island east of Singapore) in my hands by the end of December 41. I can always build more APs and AKs ( hell I have most of them at home in port because I just can't find enough escorts for them)... It seems to me that bypassing the main areas of resistance and taking the critical areas first would warrant greater reward in the DEI than the attritional strength to strength approaches you mostly see... Of course, maybe I'm overlooking something..

Mynok -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (4/5/2006 5:04:03 PM)
Against a human, the critical areas will be the areas of heaviest resistance.

niceguy2005 -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (4/5/2006 5:57:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nemo121 What about aiming for isolation rather than driving through their strength. Sure you'll lose more shipping on the return trip but I am currently in a game where I've taken Soerabaja, Koepang & Kendari and have left most of the bases on the "inside" of the perimeter to be taken by follow-on forces. Sure my losses to enemy bombers amongst my APs, AKs and auxiliaries are high but the pay-off is even larger. I fully expect to have Java and the rest of the DEI ( excepting the island east of Singapore) in my hands by the end of December 41. I can always build more APs and AKs ( hell I have most of them at home in port because I just can't find enough escorts for them)... It seems to me that bypassing the main areas of resistance and taking the critical areas first would warrant greater reward in the DEI than the attritional strength to strength approaches you mostly see... Of course, maybe I'm overlooking something.. I don't think it matters much which bases you take first, with the exception of needing to protect oil fields once taken. The real empahsis should be put on how you take them. I have not played a PBEM as JPN, but in my AI games I am picking a couple of bases on which to land base forces and construction engieers. For the Japanese to move the quickest through the DEI, they must maximize their effectiveness in air and on the sea. Brute force attack by the army will be slow going. I would prescribe massive and frequent naval bombardment at every landing. This would be accompanied by massive LBA attacks. The associated disruption and disablement can takes days or weeks of the length of a siege. My opponenents usually move very slowly through the DEI until they bring in the massive air strikes.

moses -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (4/5/2006 6:09:29 PM)
I don't see why speed is all that important. What matters is cost. I play a completly historical Japanese start. (more restricted then the AI start.) Its still not difficult at all to meet the historical timeline. What is difficult is to keep losses low. I think the true measure of success to be strived for is to take the SRA without significant shipping losses and with a large air kill ratio. I started a new game recently and I'm not doing as well as I would have liked in this respect. Its much harder now I think as Japan then in earlier versions of the game. I stupidly lost a small CV and a CA plus 10 or so DD's. In my mind quite a failure. Time is really not a problem as long as you continue to make steady progress. You won't run out of oil for quite a while.

niceguy2005 -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (4/5/2006 6:20:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: moses I don't see why speed is all that important. What matters is cost. I play a completly historical Japanese start. (more restricted then the AI start.) Its still not difficult at all to meet the historical timeline. What is difficult is to keep losses low. I think the true measure of success to be strived for is to take the SRA without significant shipping losses and with a large air kill ratio. I started a new game recently and I'm not doing as well as I would have liked in this respect. Its much harder now I think as Japan then in earlier versions of the game. I stupidly lost a small CV and a CA plus 10 or so DD's. In my mind quite a failure. Time is really not a problem as long as you continue to make steady progress. You won't run out of oil for quite a while. Actually, I agree with moses 100%. My above comments are based on the idea that a speedy conquest of the DEI is necessary to the players strategy. However, I think efficiency is far more important. That means keeping losses low. In my current AI game I am doing that by flying air missions only at critical points and I land troops at a port and march them to the front, instead of directly invading a base. ALso, players often take an unhistoric approach to the game by not trying to minimize casualtiees.

Ron Saueracker -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (4/5/2006 6:59:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: moses I don't see why speed is all that important. What matters is cost. I play a completly historical Japanese start. (more restricted then the AI start.) Its still not difficult at all to meet the historical timeline. What is difficult is to keep losses low. I think the true measure of success to be strived for is to take the SRA without significant shipping losses and with a large air kill ratio. I started a new game recently and I'm not doing as well as I would have liked in this respect. Its much harder now I think as Japan then in earlier versions of the game. I stupidly lost a small CV and a CA plus 10 or so DD's. In my mind quite a failure. Time is really not a problem as long as you continue to make steady progress. You won't run out of oil for quite a while. Bang ON!

Feinder -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (4/5/2006 7:10:22 PM)
All excellent (specific) suggestions above. On a more general level... Your priorities should be 1. Securing a few AF(4)s. As Allied, I will happily roam about SRA with surface groups to engage your invasions. But I -hate- torp totin' LBA. The sooner you can bring LBA to bear, the faster you clear out my surface ships. 2. Mini-KB is -not- really a deterrent to my surface ships by the way. That's fine if you want to use it blast a few escaping transports. And if you want to hunt my surface groups, bring it on. Frankly, I'm not -that- worried about 15 - 20 Kates. And having you roaming around gives my own LBA some high-value targets. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't deploy mini-KB to SRA. I'm just saying the risk to your CVs, is about equal to threat you post to my surface groups. 3. Kill the AFs. Kill the AFs. Kill the AFs. Many newer players will mass their aircraft (a good way to get them killed). But there are a -LOT- of AFs that Allied Hudsons and Martins can fly from (AF-3 or better). The penalty for AF(3) just means shorter range (not a problem since ranges in SRA are shorter anyway), and since they already carry 250# bombs, the load-out is the same. Heck, the fighters and torp bombers will fly from the AF(2)s. The fighters get clobbered on CAP, so I use them for escort (also dead) and NavAtk. As long as those AFs are open, you're going to take casualties. That means either/both neutralizing the AFs that I fly from, or CAPing your own TFs. -F-

niceguy2005 -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (4/5/2006 7:25:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feinder 3. Kill the AFs. Kill the AFs. Kill the AFs. Many newer players will mass their aircraft (a good way to get them killed). But there are a -LOT- of AFs that Allied Hudsons and Martins can fly from (AF-3 or better). The penalty for AF(3) just means shorter range (not a problem since ranges in SRA are shorter anyway), and since they already carry 250# bombs, the load-out is the same. Heck, the fighters and torp bombers will fly from the AF(2)s. The fighters get clobbered on CAP, so I use them for escort (also dead) and NavAtk. As long as those AFs are open, you're going to take casualties. That means either/both neutralizing the AFs that I fly from, or CAPing your own TFs. -F- Right on Feinder. As an allied player the DEI is one of my favorite theaters because its dozens of small bases which are ideal for a squadron or two of bombers, or PT boats or surface raiders. Its total Guerilla warfare. One of the more usefull tactics Japan can employ its massed LBA to smash the AF. The problem is the allies can repair them so fast. You have to really look at the DEI from a process standpoint. Its like an assembly line. 1. Smash AFs near your target 2. Bring in massive surface bombardment (4BBs +4-6 CA) to blast the heck out of the dutch LCU, also helps keep AF shut down. Im a huge proponent of naval bombardment for Japan because shells are really cheap. I would even take on the Dutch CD guns with my BBs. 3. Massive LBA ground strike right before ground attack. 4. Overwhelming ground force with lots of ART and combat engineers 5. Follow on with supply and Eng to repair AF 6. Repeat as needed. This process keeps casualties down. The real trick is managing the logistics behind the operation as you will go from one base to the next, to the next. Lastly, Feinder brings up a good point about Dutch fighters. Once you lose a few you start to run out of good pilots. Pilots with exp 45 flying Brewsters are almost usless for Cap. As an allied player you can turn them on to Nav Attack. They almost certainly wont hit anything, but it gives them experience AND just as important keeps them flying so they arent destroyed on the ground.

moses -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (4/5/2006 7:39:48 PM)
Its also very frustrating for the allied player when Japan follows this kind of, by the numbers, methodical approach. Eventually the allied player will give in to the temptation to try and do something about it. Usually with disasterous (for the allied player) results.

Sneer -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (4/5/2006 9:32:23 PM)
read my AAR Sneer vs Raver - i think it is one of the fastest DEI conquests reported

niceguy2005 -> RE: [newb] Typical Plan for Taking DEI Fast? (4/5/2006 9:46:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: moses Its also very frustrating for the allied player when Japan follows this kind of, by the numbers, methodical approach. Eventually the allied player will give in to the temptation to try and do something about it. Usually with disasterous (for the allied player) results. Yeah, but fortunately, the Japanese player usually gets impatient and sticks his neck out, like sending in a lightly escorted invasion fleet. It tends to balance out. [:D]

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