RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (Full Version)

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Ursa MAior -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 9:22:23 AM)

Fishbed
I dont want to get into a discussion of allied war crimes (see the extermination of german POWs by GIs in the Battle of the Bulge or Yamashita's fate), because mixing a purely technical discussion with emotional (and political factors) is not going to lead anywhere.

Thank God the nazis have not won, we hungarians would have suffered even more under them, because Hitler hated us more than Stalin (although he was also not a fan of us).

But to claim allied superiority in any area, any time starting with 1st, sept 1939 is just plain ridiculous. I know I cant convince the likes of mdiehl, who is talking about a game WITHOUT EVEN OWNING IT -btw which tells a lot lot about his personality-, but I want to make it felt that there are other opinions than these, driven by arrogance and nationalism.



frank1970 -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 9:42:54 AM)

The ignore button is the little green dot under the post, near the buddy icon.



Ursa MAior -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 9:47:28 AM)

Thanks/danke/mercy!

I did it another way, but now I knwo how to do it in the easy way!



frank1970 -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 10:14:33 AM)

you are welcome! Took some time until I found out how to do it! [;)]



String -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 10:29:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

Well that's not a goddam "inferior" "superior" debate - these planes simply don't perform the same mission, we're talking about an interceptor and an escort fighter, the later is made to shoot down the first, the first is made to shoot down bombers.


That works for me. I'm not the fellow who tried to assert that the ME-262 was superior to every Allied fighter of the day. As a bomber buster the ME-262 was damned good. That said, if the Axis could have built, say, lots of FW-190s in lieu of fewer ME-262s the FW-190s were a better interceptor for the job (and in other ways better all around as fighters).

Maybe it's true that it was cheaper to build two of those mediocre Jumo turbofans than one FW190 engine but my impression is otherwise.


Afaik the Jumo turbofans used lower quality fuel, which was a lot more abundant in the later days of the third reich.



Przemcio231 -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 10:33:00 AM)

Well Ursa[:)] the Allies have a certain superioritis over the Wehrmacht from 1939... but they could not use them... either becouse lack of good Doctrine or the incompetnace of the High Command... Lets take Fall Gelb for example... The French Army was Large... they had far better tanks then the Germans had (Char B1 , Somua S-35,S-40) they had a nice Airforce but the lacked the Doctrine to use all that in good manner this comes togheter with Faulty Planning and incompetent High Command and lack of Fighting Spirit in most of the Divisions... The Germans on other hand were able to fight in even the worst situation and were able to suprise the Allies until the end of the War... Look at Bulge... the Allies had Air Superiority lots of Recon and they still were unable to predict the counter offensive "wich was doomed from the Beggining"[:)]

As for Me-262 you don't need the range when you operate as an interceptor over your territory with a Radar Net able to detect Incoming Raid[:)]

Ursa some one may tell that the Hungary fought on Hitlers side but i think that means nothing... i know an exmaple how the Hungarians fought for Hitler... It Was early August 1944 few days erlier an Uprising Broke out in Warsaw and a Hungarian Corps was stationed NW of Warsaw to block polish reinforcments from reaching Warsaw from the Woods near by... it ended in Hungarian Units send back to their homeland ASAP as the Soldiers were close to Mutiny to join the Poles in their fight and the blocking didn't work as Hungarians let poles throught even giveing them some of their weapons[:D][:D][:D]





Ursa MAior -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 1:42:43 PM)

Yes I agree with you. Dont forget Spitfire and the Matilda MkII.

[:D]Of course the situation changed when the US joined the fray, because from then on, the allies had ALL the advantages. It was the stupid pilitcians who messed it up. [:D]

You know I wont and cant be threatened to be silent because of things that I know neither my grandfathers have done. One was a doctor and member of the unfortunately weak resistence, the other had a serious stomach problem, so he was unfit for military service.

BTW I met german youth (mostly in Bavaria and Baden Würtemberg) and most of them are fed up to be kept in the doghouse for crimes probably even their grandfather has not comitted.

As of the historical polish - hungarian friendship which was strong even in the WWII I wonder what has remained (except for the little rhyme) of it. I mean aside from everyday life. Is there any sign of it in the politics, military affairs, business life etc.?



el cid again -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 1:47:07 PM)

quote:

see the extermination of german POWs by GIs in the Battle of the Bulge or Yamashita's fate


While I agree with the US Supreme Court (it ruled on the merits of Yamashita's case in spite of having no jurisdiction - the ONLY such ruling ever) about Yamashita

I have no problem whatever with executing soldiers cought out of uniform.
They are NOT POW's in the eyes of the law of land warfare and, except that I think such special forces guys might be worth questioning, I would not hesitate to shoot them. I am a big advocate of the rules of war - and I piss off a lot of people of higher rank at times insisting on things that will keep our country on good terms with the public (ours and international) - but I have not the slightest respect for "unlawful combattants" who are NOT honoring the basic rules. And the most basic of rules is you must wear a uniform of some sort.



Ursa MAior -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 1:51:13 PM)

Well if I want to be picky I'd say they had unfiforms. Even german, under the US issue. But that's another story. History is written by the victors we all know that, but no winner should forget (IIRC they were Yamashita's words) 'After 50 or 100 years the historians will know the truth.'



el cid again -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 1:54:06 PM)

quote:

Ursa some one may tell that the Hungary fought on Hitlers side but i think that means nothing... i know an exmaple how the Hungarians fought for Hitler...


I doubt it. When the Hungarian army retreated OUT of Hungary - Westward - the Soviets asked it to surrender - since Hungary was occupied. "Not as long as we can still kill Russians" was the reply.
I knew (he is now dead) a Hungarian fighter pilot PROUD of his fighting with the Luftwaffe in Me-109s. Many Hungarians had no love for the Russians. Hungarians historically are an unusual people - their language seems related to Finnish and Mongolian - and it appears they are remnants of the invasion that swept over Russia from the East 400 years ago. They don't appear closely related to any of their immediate neighbors. Many Hungarians have a far greater sense of history than Americans do - and if you think they were uniformly anti-German - when it gave them a chance to fight Russians - I don't think you understand the norms of the WWII era in Hungary. Many "Axis Allies" were only puppet states. Hungary was a nation and it was ALLIED to Germany as a nation - although that does not mean every person felt that was right of course. But Hungary was probably Germany's most loyal Ally.



Przemcio231 -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 1:57:54 PM)

Well i think most poles feel strong Sympathy to Hungarians and Czechs[:D] Well you got a good Salami in Hungary... my friend studied in Budapest and seaid that you are all really Friendly people[:)] well i would like to visit lake Balaton some day[:D] any way we had the same king some times in the past[:)] as for my Grandfathers on was in Polish resistance and the other fought in Polish peoples Army from Battle of Lenino 1943 to Berlin 1945[:D] Well my aunt lives in Gottingen i some times visite her and the folks there are really nice... and that is true what you say about german youth... why they should suffer for something they did not do... this is sick...



el cid again -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 2:05:35 PM)

quote:

Well if I want to be picky I'd say they had unfiforms. Even german, under the US issue.


I will stipulate this is correct.

What you appear not to understand is that it is not good enough.
The THEORY was they were supposed to quickly strip off the US uniforms BEFORE capture. This is a critical legal and moral point: failure to do that should get you shot - and every soldier trained in the conventions knows that. When you decide to wear a disguise (which is a legitimate "ruse of war") it is risky - and AT THE MOMENT COMBAT is about to be joined you are REQUIRED to shed the disguise. Fail to do it, you are a partisan, an irregular, a terrorist - fill in the blank. It is NOT allowed to actually ambush the enemy while wearing his uniforms, for example. You can wear civilian clothes or enemy or neutral uniforms while you MOVE - but NOT while you FIGHT.

Get it wrong - you are NOT a POW - and you have NO rights whatever.

And this isn't a legalism or technicality - it is necessary. Think about it - HOW can you tell a real soldier from a terrorist? On a battlefield as a soldier - how can you tell? This is the way: he has a uniform of some sort associated with his country. If he does not do that, you must treat him as a civilian (or worse a friendly soldier) - and if he uses that as a way to attack you - he is a dangerous opponant indeed. It is forbidden, and the penalty is death. And any soldier can act on that WITHOUT a trial, or permission, or orders, or anything. I actually did engage an enemy boarding party (enemy because they were boarding a US naval vessel and killing or at least hurting - I could not tell which - US sailors - enemy because they were trying to steal nuclear weapons) which was not in any uniform. I did not care if they were soldiers or sailors or civilian contractors - and I did not make any attempt to find out. We were outnumbered badly - there are 14 men in a naval armed party - it changes name according to function - in this case it was "the ASROC security detail" - and there were over a hundred of them. I called for Marines on the radio and then proceeded to engage in a way that was not too dangerous: use fire moving AWAY from the (explosive) ASROC mounting. We didn't ask questions and no one ever criticized that choice. Civilian clothes or not - we could lawfully shoot them - and in the heat of tactical battle you are not required to accept surrender - nor if badly outnumbered can you safely do so.



el cid again -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 2:12:34 PM)

quote:

BTW I met german youth (mostly in Bavaria and Baden Würtemberg) and most of them are fed up to be kept in the doghouse for crimes probably even their grandfather has not comitted.


I don't believe in trans-generational guilt. Children are not responsible for the sins of their parents - or grandparents. But SOMEONE's grandfather did those things - and it is not very likely any particular Bavarian didn't have at least one such grandparent - unless they were known to be executed for acts of resistence. There were an awful lot of patriotic Germans who, even if they were not Nazis and not always happy with official policy, really were on the Axis side of the war. And when you are part of a country and an institution, it is not easy to avoid things if they happen around you. But there are always some exceptions. I know of a German soldier and his friend who rendered medical aid to Russian civilians in a part of Ukraine who were eventually the ONLY survivors of their unit - and clearly it was because they were not regarded the same as other members of their unit were. I find it amazing that level of sophistication could exist in the pretty nasty situation of Eastern Europe during the war. It would be awful to have to choose between Stalin and Hitler, Nazis and Communists, or various institutions and policies. Often the choices would be all perfectly awful - and I have some sympathy with anyone in such a situation - regardless of what they decided. Remember - the Russians were our allies - and their leader was more of a butcher than Hitler was. Ugly situation



Przemcio231 -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 2:19:45 PM)

Ursa what was that rhyme in Hungarian becouse in polish we have few version's of it
"Polak Wegier Dwa Bratanki i do Bitki i do Szkalnki"[:D][:D] Well as for Yamaschita case... well the more outragus was killing Gen. Homma for things he did not do...

El Cid Please check ageain there was no Invasion Sweeping Russia 400 years ago... in XVIIth Century there was no such thing... well in that time Poles Captured Moscow yoy know and in Russia it was the time called "Great Sorrow" and well kind of Kindgdom of Hungary was created on about 899 AD... so it think the pace you taken your info sucks[:D][:D]



Ursa MAior -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 2:19:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
But Hungary was probably Germany's most loyal Ally.


I think this one goes to the finns, but we were the last to leave their side, mainly due to the occupation in 16 march, 1944. After we were nothing but a puppet state. Before Hungary was the refuge of jews, poles and other people mistreated by the nazis.



Ursa MAior -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 2:24:00 PM)

'Lengyel magyar ket jo barat
Egyutt harcol es issza borat.'

I've been to Wroclaw way back in 1989 in a youth meeting. Or was it 1988?

El cid
To be more precise the language is related to finish the people probably turkish or iranian. As Przemcio231 said the so called 'taking of the land' was in 896 AD. We are here ever since.



el cid again -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 2:46:12 PM)

quote:

El Cid Please check ageain there was no Invasion Sweeping Russia 400 years ago... in XVIIth Century there was no such thing... well in that time Poles Captured Moscow yoy know and in Russia it was the time called "Great Sorrow" and well kind of Kindgdom of Hungary was created on about 899 AD... so it think the pace you taken your info sucks


I may be remembering incorrectly - I am not used to the long history Russia boasts! How long have the Prypit marshes been flooding? Isn't it 400 years? Or was it 600? Since the Mongols destroyed the waterworks of the Kiev civilization - whenever that was. Hungarians seem to be remnants of that.



el cid again -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 2:48:18 PM)

quote:

To be more precise the language is related to finish the people probably turkish or iranian. As Przemcio231 said the so called 'taking of the land' was in 896 AD. We are here ever since.


My sense of dates grows dim much before 1700 - you guys have a LONG history!



Przemcio231 -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 3:06:07 PM)

No problem El Cid... where are you from[:)]



Przemcio231 -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 3:10:18 PM)

Ursa have you seen polish comedy called "KuK Deserters"[:D][:D]



Ursa MAior -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 3:19:47 PM)

Have not herad from it. It is like Svejk?



Przemcio231 -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 3:21:50 PM)

Yep... its about a group of Kuk Soldiers wich are deserting... this group includes Pole Hungarian , Czech and a Jew[:D] and their trying to ditch the Army



Hoplosternum -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 3:22:24 PM)

El Cid - Magyars not Mongols [:)]

They arrived in Hungary at the end of the 9th Century at Przemek says. Raided much of Europe in the manner of the earlier asiatic invaders such as the Avars, Bulgars, Huns etc. etc. until they were beaten at Lechfield in 955 AD after which they settled down somewhat [:)]

The Magyars were not ethnic Slavs like many of their neighbours and I believe this is why their language is so different from the Slavic languages around them, although doubtless over 1000+ years there has been a lot of cross over [:D]



Ursa MAior -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 3:24:17 PM)

Against all the problems with KuK Monarchie IMHO the MAJORITY of the population lived better (compered to contemporary stndards) than they live now.



Ursa MAior -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 3:25:42 PM)

Yep.[&o] There are few people who is so well informed about the history of small nations.



Przemcio231 -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 3:33:03 PM)

Well Ursa yes the Austro-Hungary was the best place to live in those times as the Goverment respected the minoritis... Like Austria conquered a part of Poland but did not opress the population as Prussians and Russians did... well The Monarchs of A-H were wise and just people...



Mynok -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 4:41:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

well The Monarchs of A-H were wise and just people...


Unless one was a Protestant during the Thirty Years War.... [:D]

Seriously, "rules" of war is the worst attempt by humankind to mask an evil with honor. There are no rules in war, and playing by some imagined set hinders the most important goal: to win and get on with peace.



hawker -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 4:47:19 PM)

quote:

Well Ursa yes the Austro-Hungary was the best place to live in those times as the Goverment respected the minoritis... Like Austria conquered a part of Poland but did not opress the population as Prussians and Russians did... well The Monarchs of A-H were wise and just people...


You are wrong Przemcio,my country,Croatia,was under Austro-Hungary boot and there is most trouble time for my country-Repression,killings...
It was much better under comunist party.



hawker -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 4:52:46 PM)

Every stranger in past do what they desire in Croatia until we say-NO MORE.
P.S.Now American police use Croatian hand gun,and American army will probably use Croatian assault rifle. Big achievement for small country to supply super-power with guns.



Ursa MAior -> RE: How would German WWII Ac rate to WITP Ac ? (3/1/2006 5:31:08 PM)

About the SHS kingdom I dont know too much, but you are probably right that under Tito Yugoslavia was a power and had a high level of living. But look what followed after. I dont recal though that croatians had such a bad life under hungarian later austrio-hungarian rule. Some of the famous hungarian personalities had croatioan roots (e.g. Zrinyi family)



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