The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War I] >> War Plan Orange: Dreadnoughts in the Pacific 1922 - 1930



Message

Mike Carroll -> The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (2/24/2006 7:41:23 PM)

Well I had heard about this book and bought it from Amazon. What a great scenario this would be for WPO!!!! Of course it would have to be shifted back to the 20's since in the book the war starts in 1931. I have only read about 100 pages so far but it has been very interesting.

The book was written in 1925 by Hector Bywater who was a naval expert at the time. He includes the economic and political climate of the time as well as the military. In the appendix at the back is the projected fleets involved etc.

Premise: In 1930 Japan is rocked by workers strikes (communist instigators). In China a warlord has risen who is starting to unify the country. This causes concern to the Japanese because fully 40% of their resources and food come from their holdings in Manchuria and Korea. A resurgent China threatens these holdings, the loss of which would knock Japan from "Great Power" status. The Japanese leadership decides to kill two birds with one stone. They push the US into a war, which has the effect of quelling the workers in Japan as they rally round the flag. This war is designed to solidify the support of people at home and reduce the US influence and support in China. Without this support the Chinese would have little chance of dislodging the Japanese from the vital resources in Manchuria and Korea.

So far the Japs have shut down the Panama Canal by exploding a merchant ship in the cut, invaded the Philipppines and Guam. Bywater has been careful to discuss the forces available, economy and political climate etc.

A couple of interesting points so far:

1) The Japanese are depicted as acting humanly towards troops that have surrendered. In fact in many cases the word chivalry is used.
2) Air power is much more effective than it would probably have been possible with the airplanes of the time - certainly not 10 years later though.

Well if you want to read a "fiction" book that is kind of based on the reality of the times and applies somewhat to this game I would check it out.

I would like to see someone build a scenario based on this (who has the talent). You would need to turn on the production system and put alot of the supply and resources in Korea and Manchuria etc. In the book at the start of the war fully 70% of the Japanese army is in Manchuria protecting their interests there.



String -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (2/24/2006 7:47:39 PM)

Perhaps the "chivalry" part dates back to the russo-japanese war and ww1. I don't recall any atrocoties by the japanese there.



Mike Carroll -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (2/24/2006 7:49:11 PM)

Well they certainly are depicted as honorable soldiers, unlike the vicious Germans[:D]



JagdFlanker -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (2/24/2006 11:26:35 PM)

here's a great essay comparing the book to what actually happened in WW II - contains spoilers so don't read this mike or anyone else who wants to be surprised reading the book!

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1970/1/1970_1_11.shtml

From the essay:

quote:

Needless to say, Hector Bywater was no ordinary fabricator of les guerres imaginaires; he was right much too often. Not only did he predict a great many details of the coming war, but, more significantly, he spelled out in advance the daring, unorthodox strategy with which Japan would burst her confines in the Pacific.


quote:

...It was Yamamoto who devised the plan for the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor together with simultaneous invasions throughout the southwestern Pacific—in essence the Bywater plan—and he was so ardent in his commitment to this strategy that he once threatened to resign unless it was adopted and put to the test. But how did Yamamoto come upon this remarkable plan for conquest? Could it be that he was influenced by Bywater? Could it be that in writing The Great Pacific War Hector Bywater had unwittingly composed the Mein Kampf of Imperial Japan?



Layer -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (2/25/2006 1:42:16 AM)

Bywater is a very interesting character. Apart from his novel 2 other books of his are worth looking at in the context of WPO: Sea Power in the Pacific pub in 1921 where he goes through various scenarios that could happen and Navies and Nations pub in 1927. He did appear to have a lot of high level contacts within all 3 major navies and had a good knowledge of Naval affairs. He is worth reading because he gives a good flavour of the thinking of the times.



Mike Carroll -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (2/27/2006 5:33:05 PM)

Well I finished the book, pretty good read. Again I think it captures the importance that China and Manchuria played to Japan as a source for raw materials. The numbers Bywater put out is not fantasy but reality. Coal, iron, food all needed on mainland Japan were sourced from Korea and Manchuria. From a game perspective I would say that 40% of the "resources" that Japan would need for their industry would be sourced from this area. I would also say that the industry that is there in WITP would be reduced. Those industries were developed in the 30's for the most part. You may need to have some daily allotments of "supply" in Japan just to cover the needs of the Army, but a great part of the resources that run the HI and Vehicle factories should have to be shipped in from Manchuria.



Desertmole -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/6/2006 5:24:49 PM)

William Honan wrote Visions of Infamy, a biography of Hector Bywater. In it he proposed that Yamamoto was heavily influenced by Bywater, and even met him in London shortly before Bywater died. He even puts forth the theory that Bywater may have killed by Japanese agents. The book is an interesting read, but must be taken heavily with a grain of salt.

Honan claimed in an article in American Heritage back in the '70s that Yamamoto saw Great Pacific War while he was the Naval Attache in Washington, was impressed by it and took it back to Japan (along with Bywater's other writings) for use in the Naval War College. The problem is that to the best of my knowledge no other Japanese flag officer ever backed up this claim. While there are similarities to the Japanese opening strategy, there are also significant differences. Some of the similarities are merely common sense or the result of those options being the only available.

I first read Bywater probably 40 years ago and have greatly enjoyed it. I have wargamed the it in various forms over the years, and hope, eventually to try it with WPO.



Mike Carroll -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/6/2006 7:03:36 PM)

One of the amusing things in the book is Bywater's view that the Battleship is able to stand against air attack. He definitely had the "Gun Admiral" view on the topic. I do find it interesting however that against transports and smaller ships aircraft are very effective.

I too would like to see a WPO scenario based on the book. Would prefer a 1926 era scenario, with the Production system turned on. That would allow for modeling the importance of Manchuria and Korea for a raw materials standpoint.

I also think the idea of damaging the Panama Canal is interesting and would account for the length of time it would take for reinforcements from the Atlantic to show up.



String -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/6/2006 8:24:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Carroll

One of the amusing things in the book is Bywater's view that the Battleship is able to stand against air attack. He definitely had the "Gun Admiral" view on the topic. I do find it interesting however that against transports and smaller ships aircraft are very effective.

I too would like to see a WPO scenario based on the book. Would prefer a 1926 era scenario, with the Production system turned on. That would allow for modeling the importance of Manchuria and Korea for a raw materials standpoint.

I also think the idea of damaging the Panama Canal is interesting and would account for the length of time it would take for reinforcements from the Atlantic to show up.


Actually, you don't need the production system to model the raw materials. Just move a large portion of supply and fuel production to Manchuria and Korea and there you have it.



Mike Carroll -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/6/2006 9:02:27 PM)

Yea I am actually working on that. Guess we could just have the Japs start off owning all of Manchuria. I was thinking it would give them some incentive to attack in Manchuria, but now I think of it, better to just have them start with all of Manchuria.



Terminus -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/6/2006 9:08:25 PM)

Should be interesting. I've just bought the book off Amazon, and have to go pick it up at the post office tomorrow.



Mike Carroll -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/6/2006 9:26:52 PM)

It is a really interesting read. He has a good appendix in the back reviewing the forces etc. Think you will enjoy it.



JagdFlanker -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/7/2006 1:44:40 AM)

here's a short bio on hector bywater with some neat insight on how he came up with some ideas in the book.

http://www.microworks.net/pacific/bases/pearl_inset.htm



Mike Carroll -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/7/2006 4:48:54 PM)

Well I can see I am going to have to get a copy of his first book as well[:D] That was very interesting!



Jevhaddah -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/8/2006 1:32:39 AM)

Just ordered a copy from Amazon for £8.24 its going to take between 1 to 2 weeks to get to me though.

Cheers

Jevvy

Must remember that garion is me Programming and Graphics handle..sigh its old age yoo know [:(]



Terminus -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/8/2006 9:04:41 PM)

Started reading it now, and it's a very good story. I'd like to do stats for the Japanese Nagasaki-class submarine cruisers...[X(]



Mike Carroll -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/8/2006 10:15:49 PM)

I was reading Janes 1897 to 1997 and they have a British sub of similar specs with 8" guns. I was thinking of adding it to my mod scenario. Along with the minelayer version, although perhaps not so many mines.



Terminus -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/8/2006 10:24:59 PM)

What, 2500 mines on one boat's too much for you?[:D]



Mike Carroll -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/8/2006 10:50:50 PM)

Frankly yes! But would be interesting to give them say 300 or so mines. Will have to think about. I have ordered his other book written in 1921 that details his view of the situation in the 20's. I will use that to help me design my scenario.



Terminus -> RE: The Great Pacific War by Hector Bywater (3/8/2006 11:46:24 PM)

Damn, I was just looking at the stats for the French sub-cruiser Surcouf, and she was 3,000 tons lighter than the Nagasaki!



Desertmole -> Bywater Books (4/4/2006 8:33:19 PM)

Bywater was pretty prolific and you can find articles by him in a number of magazines throughout the '20s and '30s. These include, but are not limited to, Scientific American, USNI Proceedings, Atlantic Monthly and, I believe, National Geographic. He also wrote a number of books both about warships and spying (he worked for the SIS prior to and possibly during WWI).

In addition to Seapower in the Pacific (1921) and Great Pacific War (1925), he wrote Their Secret Purposes, Dramas and Mysteries of the Naval War (1932), Navies and Nations (1927), A Searchlight on the Navy (1935) and Cruisers in Battle, 1914 - 1918 (1939). These are the naval books. He also has at least two books on spys and spying before and during WWI. ABE Books carries many of these, and a number also seem to have been translated into Italian.

I have Navies and Nations, and it covers a fair amount about the Never-weres and the building plans. An interesting read.



Mike Carroll -> RE: Bywater Books (4/4/2006 9:15:01 PM)

Thanks for the info. I am going to see if I can find some of those.



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
1.078125