Field Goal error (Full Version)

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Deltadog -> Field Goal error (3/9/2006 3:12:27 AM)

I ran a qucik play game, computer vs computer. US rules-- During the game one if the teams drove down inside the defensive 20 yard line. On 4th down the offensive team attempted a field goal and missed. The ball went into the endzone and was turned over to the defense. Instead on comming out to the 20 the ball was place at the spot of the kick. The NFL rule is as follows:

Field Goal
1. All field goals attempted (kicker) and missed from beyond the 20-yard line will result in the defensive team taking possession of the ball at the spot of the kick. On any field goal attempted and missed where the spot of the kick is on or inside the 20-yard line, ball will revert to defensive team at the 20-yard line.

In this instance since the spot of the kick was inside the 20 the defense should have gotten the ball at the 20.




David Winter -> RE: Field Goal error (3/9/2006 3:56:30 AM)

That's an NFL specific rule.



Magnum357 -> RE: Field Goal error (3/9/2006 4:06:32 AM)

Is it different in the CFL? Would it be too hard to add this rule David to just the U.S. Model? It is a fairly critical rule the NFL added a decade ago because I beleive the NFL wanted to penelize teams going for long FG attempts and it does give Kickers more headaches. [:D]



David Winter -> RE: Field Goal error (3/9/2006 4:10:48 AM)

It's very different because in the CFL, field goals are live. If a field goal is missed it can be returned for a TD (or at the very least the offense takes over where the ball carrier was stopped). If it's missed and not returned out of the endzone, a single point is given up.

The problem is that there is no 'US' model. There is no Canadian or Indoor model for that matter. They're just a collection of rules that can (to a point) be mixed and matched together. So there is no way for the game to know you're playing "US Pro Rules", or "Canadian Rules". It just sees a collection of rules.



the_rob -> RE: Field Goal error (3/9/2006 4:06:29 PM)

Actually, FGs in the NFL are also live. In fact, this past season a NFL record was set for a return TD, in a game involving the Chicago Bears, as a result of a DB fielding a missed FG that did not go out of play. FGs that are missed, and go out of the end zone, are then subjected to the LOS placement rules regarding inside or outside the 20.



Old Coach -> RE: Field Goal error (3/9/2006 4:49:23 PM)

Actually, at all levels of play, middle school through pro, in American rules a missed FG inside the 20 is brought out to the 20. It's considered a touchback.

Old Coach



Deltadog -> RE: Field Goal error (3/9/2006 5:36:26 PM)

the_rob and Old Coach are correct. NCAA rules read as follows:

b. After an unsuccessful field goal attempt that has crossed the neutral
zone, the ball, untouched by Team B after it crossed the neutral zone
and subsequently declared dead beyond the neutral zone, will next be
put in play at the previous spot, or extra-period rules govern. If the pre-vious
spot was between Team B’s 20-yard line and the goal line, the
ball shall next be put in play at Team B’s 20-yard line on or between the
inbounds lines by a snap, or extra-period rules govern.[/color] The snap shall
be from midway between the inbounds lines on the 20-yard line,
unless a different position on or between the inbounds lines is selected
by Team B before the ready-for-play signal. After the ready-for-play
signal, the ball may be relocated after a charged team timeout, unless
preceded by a Team A foul or offsetting penalties. Otherwise, all rules
pertaining to scrimmage kicks apply (A.R. 6-3-4-III, A.R. 8-4-2-I-X and
A.R. 10-2-2-XXV).

I do not know about in the CFL, but I cannot see how any FG kick that passes through the endzone and likely ends up in the stands or the netting behind the goal post can be retjurned. The point is that a kick that originates inside the 20 and is not returnable should be spotted at the 20 and not the point kick.



elmerlee -> RE: Field Goal error (3/9/2006 11:05:25 PM)

From DW\
"The problem is that there is no 'US' model. There is no Canadian or Indoor model for that matter. They're just a collection of rules that can (to a point) be mixed and matched together. So there is no way for the game to know you're playing "US Pro Rules", or "Canadian Rules". It just sees a collection of rules."

Do I understand you to say that we cannot play with this NFL rule in effect? That any league we have will basically be a make-believe set of mingled rules? Surely you jest.




David Winter -> RE: Field Goal error (3/9/2006 11:16:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmerlee

From DW\
"The problem is that there is no 'US' model. There is no Canadian or Indoor model for that matter. They're just a collection of rules that can (to a point) be mixed and matched together. So there is no way for the game to know you're playing "US Pro Rules", or "Canadian Rules". It just sees a collection of rules."

Do I understand you to say that we cannot play with this NFL rule in effect? That any league we have will basically be a make-believe set of mingled rules? Surely you jest.




No, I don't jest. The game has no idea what the NFL does or does not do. When you build a league you set up values in a collection of rules. How is the game supposed to know what league uses the rules selection you've set? This game doesn't know anything about rules used by particular leagues. It sees a collection of rules with various values assigned to those rules.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Field Goal error (3/9/2006 11:47:12 PM)

elmerlee,

To be clear, the game does not know "NFL" from "CFL", but it has a wide variety of rules combinations which can be used to get the exact or very close to the play experience of a number of professional leagues, depending on what the player chooses.

Regards,

- Erik



frunky -> RE: Field Goal error (3/10/2006 12:52:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmerlee

From DW\
"The problem is that there is no 'US' model. There is no Canadian or Indoor model for that matter. They're just a collection of rules that can (to a point) be mixed and matched together. So there is no way for the game to know you're playing "US Pro Rules", or "Canadian Rules". It just sees a collection of rules."

Do I understand you to say that we cannot play with this NFL rule in effect? That any league we have will basically be a make-believe set of mingled rules? Surely you jest.




Why do you care
You didn't even buy the game

Your just here to look for ways to irritate Dave and Matrix Games



elmerlee -> RE: Field Goal error (3/10/2006 1:12:53 AM)

First off - I VERY MUCH want to buy this game.Very Much.And will when about 5-6 deal breakers are fixed.

Second - I don't wish to irritate Erik and Matrix.As usual Erik gave a very helpfull reply to my question.He continues to do a great job and bail this thing out.

Third - David gave a really ignorant response as he does to about 50% of the questions.I just plain don't like his attitude and that feeling is VERY much echoed by others all over internet forums.

You might be surprised at those who want this game to be a winner and yet are tired of his attitude.I wonder what his real job is.I'll bet it is not dealing with the public.




David Winter -> RE: Field Goal error (3/10/2006 1:28:10 AM)

How was my response 'ignorant'? I told you exactly why the game does what it does (and by extension why somethings are and are not possible) and you seemed to think I was joking.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Field Goal error (3/10/2006 1:35:38 AM)

elmerlee, Frunky,

Enough please, the support forum is not intended for these types of comments. Both David and I answered you and neither of our replies was ignorant. I would rather keep these threads to response to the posters who are having issues. Discussion of game features should go in the main M-F forum.

Regards,

- Erik



Marauders -> RE: Field Goal error (3/10/2006 2:57:43 AM)

Could this rule be tied to the American rules selection?



David Winter -> RE: Field Goal error (3/10/2006 4:03:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders

Could this rule be tied to the American rules selection?



That was generally intended for use with penalties but expanding that is an option yes. It's sounding more and more like I need to, not only have 'rules selection' for penalties, but also for the clock and a couple of other areas. Expanding that is not a simple task though.

At the moment, the game is just given a selection of rules to enforce and it really has no concept of what are NFL/CFL/XFL/Indoor/etc... 'rules'. It knows the user wants 4 downs, and a 100 yard long field, and 11 men per side, but it doesn't see these as rules for a particular league.



EF -> RE: Field Goal error (3/10/2006 7:48:17 AM)

Why do you advertise that it can be played using American rules if it doesn't include ALL American rules? That's false advertising and quite misleading.

Sorry, but I get a little irritated when I pay 40 dollars for something, expecting something that is at least close to 40 dollars worth of product, and then get about 8 dollars worth of a product.



Shaggyra -> RE: Field Goal error (3/10/2006 9:38:34 AM)

I'm sorry. I have to agree with some others here. The problem with the field goal inside the 20 is standard on all US rule sets, regardless of league.

This 1 item surely by itself should not add to much code, should it?



David Winter -> RE: Field Goal error (3/10/2006 7:46:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shaggyra

I'm sorry. I have to agree with some others here. The problem with the field goal inside the 20 is standard on all US rule sets, regardless of league.

This 1 item surely by itself should not add to much code, should it?



You would be amazed at just how much code (and by extension complexity) 'one item' can add.

What I'll try to do this weekend, as an intermediate measure, is to tie some of these rules into the field size you select. So if you have a 100 yard line field you can get a-typical US results for this situation. A 110 yard long field will have different results. Punting on a 50 yard field is not-applicable anyway.



Shaggyra -> RE: Field Goal error (3/10/2006 8:01:55 PM)

quote:

You would be amazed at just how much code (and by extension complexity) 'one item' can add.


I understand and appreciate the effort.

Thank you.



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