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renwor -> (7/11/2000 11:03:00 PM)
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Hello ....
seems I cannot constrain myself, and must share my findings. There is a copy of what recently went to maillist. I hope nobody cares too much ....
Beware, it's going to be LOOOONGG !!!!
A while ago, while starting a WWII campaign for germans I was puzzled why 20Kwk gun of my PSW 222 and Pz II is so much less efficient against infantry than the coaxial MG. Maybe you also noticed.
So I started shufling with editor and found out that HE kill of average MG is about 12, while HE kill of mentioned 20mm gun is 6.
... started diging again, to found some reasonable value. There was a surprise for me in storage. To make the long story short, the HE kill of my 20mm KWk remained at its original 6 value even four hours later. But I ended up adjusting about almost every other automatic cannon in the game.
Do you remember the improvement in MGs efectivity which was advertised when SPWAW was released?
Well I suspect the advertised improvement was achieved by multipliyng of HE kill of all MGs in the game by a factor. My guess is factor 2, but thats just a guess. Maybe some adjustments in accuracy also, still have to look at that.
I understand a HE kill as a comparator of lethality (for infantry, to make matters simler) of a SPWAW one shot (which may be a shot, or burst for autoweapons). It's a bit vague term, compare the efectivity of MG burst with the 75mm shell explosion :-P, but could be done. So multiplying a efectivity of MG burst could simply mean average burst for MGs for game purposes is now 20 bullets, not 10 as before. A pity is that all automatic cannons were omited in the proces.
There are some more funny results, as found in current OOBs:
weapon HE KILL
Bren AAMG 6
20mm AA gun 6
(note 20mm AA gun is quite generic, so i suspect it could fire HE)
20mm aircraft cannon 6
0.5cal aircraft MG 12
( hey, is it my fault americans had no fighter with 20mms ?, but do you really want to compare firepower of Typhoon with that of Fiat CR32 ?? )
even funnier:
QUAD 20mm AA gun 18
one 0.5 cal AAMG 14
( now, thats what I call exponential scale, if I ever saw one [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] )
oh and weapon 247 (Canadian) Lewis HMG has HE kill 20 !!!!!!!!!! GO BUY IT !!!
Ok, enough of cheap jokes. If anybody still thinks there is no mistake there, please let me know, OK ????
WHAT THE ADJUSTMENT OF MG's DID IS THAT 15mm MG FIRING FULL BULLETS HAS ?TWICE? THE EFECTIVITY OF THE SAME MG FIRING HE SHELLS.
But what the sensible HE kill value for autocannons would be?
Autocannon is ... well..., just a quick firing cannon.
By simple analysis of HE kill of cannons already in game I found simple formula for HE kill of SINGLE round:
HeKill = Caliber(in mm)/12.5 or Caliber(inch)*2, which is the same.
I found it cold be even used for low caliber slugs, where it describes not the area efect, but the probability of kill, when hit. That could be interpreted in that way: probability of survival of 6.5 mm hit is 50%, while for twice the caliber the kill probability is 100%. Going over 100% doesn't make sense ( nobody would expect shooting infantry with 12inch "slugs" ), but larger projectiles could usually be made explosive, so the probability of close hit kills came in.
I know it's lame theory. But it works well, at least for SPWAW.
Now lets say the HE kill of burst could be computed as
number of bullets * HE kill of one
again lame, but works.
0.5cal MG would have average burst of 14 bullets, why not.
Bren, with smaler caliber and HE kill of 6 would spit out 10 bullets in one burst. Again workable.
So basicaly all what is left to imagination is to establish average burst for various autoweapons. "Tell me the burst and caliber, I tell you the HE number, whatever the HE is," said my CASIO pocket calculator.
Based on 10 rounds magazine of 20Kwk in panzers I had to settle for 3 round bursts :
20/12.5 * 3 = 4.8 , nasty surprise for me, I started all this to find some excuse to raise this value, but original was 6 [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img])))
but it's a matter of "convenient" rounding:
one 20 mm shot = HE kill of 1.6, rounded up =2, multiply by burst and I am back at my 6 .... what a relief. After all its the same as 75mm shell, not that bad, or is it?
20 mm Flak 5 burst HE kill 8-10 (again the rounding)
37mm gun 1 shot 3 (is constantly 2 in OOBs)
37mm Flak 5 burst 15 (only a bit better than 0.5cal)
25mm Flak 5burst 10
for aircraft weapons, using the existing 0.5cal HE kill as a base, comparing the ROF 0.5cal 750rd/min, HE kill 12 = one second burst
One second burst for:
0.303 browning 1200rd/m 20 rounds in burst HE kill 12 (is 10)
13 mmMG 131 930rd/min 16 (a bit unfair)
20mm M2 Hispano 600rd/min 10 rounds HE kill 16 (was: Don't ask)
20mm MG 151/20 800rd/min 12-13rds HE kill 19-20
Of course no formulas or values I present are to be considered a proposed rule. Rather a rule of thumb. Adjust as much as you feel to ...
I know I ended up other way around ... i have no built in penalization for weapons of caliber over half inch, which don't have HE ammo ... I have simple proposal .... maximum HE kill of single non explosive shot be the ONE. There is nothing more than sure kill to be achieved by one round. Thus for 20mm guns firing just AP lets' use above values /1.6.
Last problem i would like to adress are multibarelled guns (like the Quad 40mm, not like Vulcan)
I don't believe simple multiplication by number of barrels would be fair, at least it was not done like this so far in SPWAW.
I propose to multiply one barell HE kill by 1.5, 2, 2.5 for two, three, and four mounts. Don't ask me where I got it, but works well with current OOBS.
So result of my effort is slight improvement of of AA weapons, low caliber ATG's, plane armament to be more in accordance with MGs power and my expectations. I didn't touch anything over 50mm calibre in the game (didn't have to) or under 15mms (same reason)
It's workable also, tried it the hard way. British at Sedan bought just two-pounders, Bofors 40mm AA and infantry. Ouch, ouch it hurts ...
Thats it.
Feel free to mail any comments to me at sidlich@hotmail.com,
if they are of such offensive nature that you don't want to post them to forum (or for any other reason) :-P
Yours Pavel S.
P.S: last minute addition: I just read at the forum that 20mm TKS gun takes into account just 1 round, not the burst. Maybe. But the HE kill is the same for Flak and vehicle version of 20mmKWk. Do you expect 20mm Flak to fire one round at a time also? Take into account also graphic and sound, its a burst.
True, if one shot is burst than PSW222 should not carry 160 ammo, but ammo for just about 50 bursts.
Also if only one shot is considered, then original HE kill of 6 equals to 75mm gun :{
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