WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (Full Version)

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TheElf -> WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 5:22:35 AM)

Just what it says. Matrix has always been responsive to their customers. What Say we start brainstorming in case this becomes a reality?

Let's keep it to constructive comments/criticism. I am starting this thread but hope the Mods will patrol it and keep things positive.

Ideas for the new model and limitations of/gripes about the old one are welcome. limit your post to posting ideas/gripes not engaging each other in pointless arguements. Feel free to agree and expand on each others concepts!




GaryChildress -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Discussion (3/19/2006 5:32:03 AM)

Stacking limits, stacking limits, stacking limits (especially on atolls). [:D]




TheElf -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Discussion (3/19/2006 5:37:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Stacking limits, stacking limits, stacking limits (especially on atolls). [:D]


Based on what? Acutal Square mileage of the atoll? How would th elimits be determined? More restrictive supply penalties?




GaryChildress -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Discussion (3/19/2006 5:58:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Stacking limits, stacking limits, stacking limits (especially on atolls). [:D]


Based on what? Acutal Square mileage of the atoll? How would th elimits be determined? More restrictive supply penalties?


Hmmm...how about a separate field in the database with a separate value for stacking limit to a particular base, and then a generic stacking limit for non-base hexes based upon terrain type. [:)]




Andrew Brown -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Discussion (3/19/2006 6:07:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
Hmmm...how about a separate field in the database with a separate value for stacking limit to a particular base, and then a generic stacking limit for non-base hexes based upon terrain type. [:)]


Actually for WitP II my preference would be to drop the concept of "base hexes" and "non-base hexes" entirely. Airfields and ports would be able to exist in any hex, or be built in any hex (within reason).

To get my post back on topic, however, I would also like to see some type of stacking limit for atolls, with the ability for only a certain number of LCUs able to participate in the combat.




Mike Scholl -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Discussion (3/19/2006 6:22:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Stacking limits, stacking limits, stacking limits (especially on atolls). [:D]


Based on what? Acutal Square mileage of the atoll? How would th elimits be determined? More restrictive supply penalties?


Not a bad way to start. Any more than 1 man per 25 square yards gets NO fortification or defense bonus, and much higher casualties. Even that puts only 4 yards between foxholes. Some way of controlling the idiocy of deploying defenders shoulder-to-shoulder and having it be a good thing needs to be found.




GaryChildress -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Discussion (3/19/2006 6:22:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
Hmmm...how about a separate field in the database with a separate value for stacking limit to a particular base, and then a generic stacking limit for non-base hexes based upon terrain type. [:)]


Actually for WitP II my preference would be to drop the concept of "base hexes" and "non-base hexes" entirely. Airfields and ports would be able to exist in any hex, or be built in any hex (within reason).



Hey Andrew. I've got some questions about this. How about starting a separate thread for Map Discussion. I can't think of anyone who should more appropriately start such a thread. [:)]




Andrew Brown -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Discussion (3/19/2006 6:31:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
Hey Andrew. I've got some questions about this. How about starting a separate thread for Map Discussion. I can't think of anyone who should more appropriately start such a thread. [:)]


Good idea Gary!




jwilkerson -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 6:58:53 AM)

Here are some thoughts I posted last year on the Uber WITP forum ( a group of about 20 of us started this up to determine level of interest in a WITP-2 ... a.k.a. Uber WITP ) these ideas were not received warmly by all .. and I posted 2 revisions to this document subsequently .. but for purposes of this discussion, I'd like to go back to the original version first.



Ground System

1. Overview: Below appears a first attempt to describe a ground system. This is not to say we must use this system, but we need to start getting some ideas floating. In case you think you recognize some of this, I am “stealing” from both CNA (Campaign for North Africa – and old SPI board game) and EIA( and old Australian Design Group board game ) and probably other games too ! And then I’m making some of this up ( I think ! ).
2. General. This system is primarily NOT a same hex combat system. WITP ( both the board game version and the computer game version ) are same hex combat systems. So I’m assuming we can make a non-same hex system work. Due to the need for Island combat we will need a sub-system for same hex combat, but I’m hoping we can fix mainland Asian combat by removing the same hex system and yet still have a same hex sub-system that will allow Island combat to take place correctly.
3. Front and Back. As per CNA this system assumes that within each hex some troops are forward ( defending the front line ) and other troops are back behind the lines providing support of some type. This protects the support troops from being caught in the battle and also is the way real battles are fought ( more or less ). Front line troops will be assumed to be more or less evenly distributed across the “front”. The “front” being defined as those hexsides known to contain enemy troops. It is envisioned that the player will be allowed to adjust this distribution ( by designating some units to be “pegged” to a specific hexside. It is also envisioned that the player may allow the AI ( i.e. the hex commander ) to adjust the distribution. Troop types will have default roles ( line or support ) also terrain may modify the default role for a troop type ( armor for example would default to support in Jungle or swamp terrain ). Artillery could be either forward or to the rear. If forward - artillery could be used to support the front with direct fire but would be more vulnerable. The role of the primary troop type of a unit, would be the role of that unit, so an armored unit might have tanks and staff and maintenance … but the unit would be “line” by default. Line units in the rear may be designated as reserves, in which case they would reinforce the front if needed. Units held in the rear may also be designated as flankers.
4. Order types. The units in a hex must have a general overall order. Order types would include.
a. Rush ( an assault ) in this case an adjacent hexsides must be designated to assault across.
b. Infiltration attack ( same as above ) Of course a rush is more of an all out attack, whereas an infiltration attack is more careful.
c. Concentrated or Broad front, this is a second attribute of a rush attack or an infiltration attack, indicating the attack is taking place or a more narrow front or on a broad front … broad front would be the default. Concentrated attacks will attempt to double up the troop density at the point of attack.
d. Flank. A flank attack will attempt to find a weak flank and launch a designated flanker force at this weak spot. A normal attack ( broad front – rush ) must be launched to pin the enemy in place. The success of the flank attack will depend on a number of factors, leadership, mobility in the terrain in question, recon points accumulated against the enemy. Length of time in the position. Training and Experience.
e. Refused Flank – this defense acknowledges weakness in the defending position, but takes steps to address this weakness by refusing the flank. This type of defense is most effective against a flank attack as essentially, the defender has correctly guess the attackers plan and designed the defense specifically against it.
f. Cordon – this is a broad front defense, where front line forces are evenly distributed across the front. It is most effective against a broadfront attack.
g. Hedgehog. This defense assumes the front is withdrawn to cover more valuable positions in the hex. This defense allows enemy guns which are forward to attack installations ( ports, airfields, supply dumps ) in the hex but optimizes the defense against “concentrated” attack.
h. Patroling, this order attempts to determine what is in the adjacent hex. There is higher risk to recon units if this order is using this order.
i. Probe, stronger form of recon using line units. Will result in formation of a bridgehead in the adjacent hex if the probing force is significantly stronger than the defending force.
j. Delay – opposite of probe, this defending order type will attempt to use economy of force to slow down an advancing enemy, but is in support of a general withdrawal plan. If met by sufficient force, especially by broadfront attack, delay forces will withdraw from the hex. Front line ( rear guard ) forces will take losses but forces held in the rear ( covered ) will rarely take losses. On the other hand against a probe – the delaying action will usually hold the hex.
k. Engineer support. Front line units may be ordered to have engineer support ( with the engineer units thus in the front line ). Engineer support will tend to retard enemy movement and enhance friendly movement, at the cost of greater casualties for the engineers.
l. Armor support. In terrain types where armor is a support type. Armor in the front line is assumed to be supporting the friendly units by providing fire support. The number of armored vehicles which can support is severely constrained.
m. Artillery support. Artillery in the front lines may be more effective ( depending on fire control doctrine and depending or enemy fortification type ( and other factors ) but will be more vulnerable to enemy fire.
5. Hexsides and counter attacks.
a. If an enemy attack achieves a “breakthrough” result. Reserves and units allocated to adjacent hexsides may attempt to counterattack to defeat the breakthrough. Real war narratives seem to indicate that counterattacks were most likely to be successful if launched immediately, even if only small numbers of troops were involved. The disorganized state of the attacker is thus apparently quit high immediately after the breakthrough, but returns to a greater state of organization “fairly” quickly. Obviously a number of factors would bear on this equation. Thus small number of forces from the hex in question may counterattack, whether in reserve or manning an adjacent hexside. The respective order types of the players will bear on the chance of a counter attack and the amount of delay before it is launched and hence whether the counter attack is successful. If the enemy is launching a broadfront attack, then the counterattack chance by front line troops is much smaller, they are pinned by attacking enemy forces. However, reserves from within the hex may be able to counterattack. If the attacker had “concentrated” attack orders, then front line troops nearby which are not being attacked with have a better chance of being able to counter attack. Front line troops counterattacking with have the smallest amount of delay. Re-area reserves pegged as reserves to the hexside in question will be the next quickest to react. General reserves will be the slowest. Once a “breakthrough” result has occurred, a clock will start ticking. And a die roll will be made for
b. (a) front line troops assigned to the hexside attacked ( only if concentrated attack orders are in place ). If defender has hedgehog orders, then % chance of counter attack is increased, if defender has cordon, then % chance is decreased. If this percentage fails for the defender, then the clock advances and a die roll is made for front line troops assigned to adjacent hexsides ( if any ). In this case broadfront attack will reduce their chance of counter attacking, concentrated defense will increase it. Broadfront defense will increase, hedgehog will decrease. If this roll is missed, then the clock is advanced and reserves pegged to the hexside in question are checked. Broadfront defense will slightly decrease their chance. If this roll fails, then the clock advances and general reserves are checked. Again, broadfront defense will slightly decrease their chance.
c. If a counterattack happens then several factors will determine the success of the counterattack. This post is not meant to be a final design for this system, but merely a description of the concepts, hence I won’t drill into the details here .. but factors such as time elapsed on the ticking clock, mobility of the counterattacking forces in the present terrain, leadership, training, experience, weapons, terrain, weather, fire support, and so on. A counterattack may abstractly represent several counter attacks occurring simultaneously, but in the “system” we will execute ( or not ) one counterattack per breakthrough result per hex, per game impulse.
6. Command
a. Within a hex, there should be one or more HQs for a side. Preferably one. If more than one, then a penalty should apply. Various orders will be applicable at the supreme HQ level ( within the hex ) though some orders may be applicable at lower levels.
7. Bridgeheads, Beachheads, Airheads and hedgehogs.
a. The need for same hex combat will exist in this game. The system described here proposes to handle this with a combination of bridgeheads, beachheads, airheads and hedgehogs.
b. When opposing forces occupy the same hex, one of these combatants will be the attacker and the other the defender.
c. First in order to enter a defender’s hex, either combat results, or terrain or method of entry into the hex may dictate that same hex combat occur. We will first discuss the three “methods of entry”.
d. River crossing. When an attacker is attempting an opposed river crossing, some combat results, will dictate that a bridgehead has been formed. In the case, the defender still controls the hex all installations in the hex, but the attacker has created a lodge-ment, presumably with rafts, ferries and perhaps pontoon bridges. Because a river crossing will occur across a particular hexside, the bridgehead is always associated with a particular hexside. Once a bridgehead is formed, three results are possible upon subsequent combat by forces attacking from the bridgehead … or forces attacking the bridgehead.
i. Bridgehead is expanded. In this case the bridgehead owner now owns the hex and the defender is either retreated or forced into a hedgehog.
ii. Bridgehead is eliminated. In the case the forces formerly in the bridgehead are retreated into the hex from whence they came and the original hex owner now regains full ownership of the hex.
iii. Bridgehead is sustained. In this case the status of the bridgehead is unchanged.
e. Beach Landing. When an attacker is performing an opposed landing upon an enemy held beach, combat results may indicate that a beachhead is formed. A beach landing may be a hexside attack ( if against the coastline of a major landmass ) or a small island/atoll attack ( if against a single hex Island ). These would be treated similarly in most cases, with the major exception of the case where an adjoining hex is held for forces friendly to the forces creating the beachhead. But otherwise a beachhead is very similar to a bridgehead. We may decide that if a beach head is eliminated that “retreating” forces take heavier losses when reboarding their vessels. The cases of this happening in WWII are few and far between ( but greater than zero ) … Milne Bay and Dieppe being the ones I can think of.
f. Air Head. Airborne units landing in enemy occupied hexes will create an airhead and airhead is not associated with a hexside and thus is considered to be an abstract contiguous region with the hex in question. The airhead is completely surrounded by the enemy forces in the hex. Whether the attacking airborne forces have captured any installations with be left to the developer of this system, but it cannot be ruled out entirely. The purpose of the attack may have been to capture specific installations. But the subsequent results are as per 7(d) except if the airhead is eliminated then the forces in the airhead have either become prisoners or been evacuated to an adjacent friendly hex.
8. Firepower
a. This system assumes that firepower is predominate. Thus all forms of combat will resolve themselves down to a defensive fire phase and an offensive fire phase. If the developer of this system deems it appropriate a subsequent “melee” phase may need to be added as well. If possible, all fire should be against the terrain. Of course the number of shooting weapons, the terrain, the relative troop densities and a number of other factors need to be considered, but it is expected that most battles will be resolved by the firepower results, rather than by “cold steel melees”.
9. Retreats
a. This system will of course require retreats, Just like in current WITP, a retreat immediately displaces the retreating forces 60 miles away. The attacker then must traverse this distance before he can again engage the enemy. This is obviously an abstraction, but a non-same-hex system will enable to forces causing the retreat to be able to engage immediately. So now we must be attune to the problem of successive combats by a stronger force against a weaker force allowing an advance that is too rapid. I’ll leave it to the developer to work out how to deal with this problem.
10. Recon
a. Ground force Recon from within the hex in question should count the most towards success or failure of events affected the hex in question. Strategic recon assets would have little applicability to events inside a hex from a ground combat perspective. It just was not possible to pass strategic Intel down to the forces in the trenches fast enough to be of use.




jwilkerson -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 7:02:03 AM)

And this was also a part of last year's discussion. I posted this as an example of the level of detail I hoped to "start with" .. not necessarily what winds up in the game .. but we need to start with detail and then abstract for effect in accordance with the design goals.

Artillery

1. Definitions:
a. Gun: Normally uses trajectories under 45 degrees. Guns are flat trajectory weapons, used for direct and indirect fire, smaller bore ( under 75mm ) being used primarily for direct fire, larger bore ( over 100mm ) being used primarily for indirect fire. Guns also often have armored piercing and anti-fortification ammunition. Gun lengths are normal L30 and above (meaning the length of the bore is 30 times or more the width of the bore). While guns can be used in a bunker busting role, this often requires them to be brought forward where direct fire can be employed, thus making them more vulnerable. They are not as useful against trenches due to their flat trajectory.
b. Howitzer: Normally uses trajectories between 30 and 60 degrees. Howitzers were traditionally mixed shell and shot firing weapons with a higher trajectory than guns and a lower trajectory than mortars. Modern howitzers deliver a large payload at a lower muzzle velocity than guns. They are useful against trenches and in a direct fire role, though not as much so as their cousins the mortar and the gun.
c. Mortar: Normally users trajectories over 45 degrees. Very useful against trenches due to their plunging fire ability. Least useful against direct fire mobile targets, due to inability to aim using direct fire principles. Mortars can deliver the highest payload with the least propellant, but do so at the lowest muzzle velocity. Generally small and medium sized mortars ( up to 82mm ) are considered infantry heavy weapons and not artillery.
d. Note, the definitions have changed over time ( and have been around for centuries ) and also the definitions certainly have overlapped in recent decades, so these are not mutually exclusive definitions !

2. Fire Control: WWII was a transition period between earlier fire control methods and methods used post war. WWI methods generally relied on exact emplacement and pre-planned fire by the map, based on reconnaissance of terrain and enemy positions. Likely attack routes had pre-planned barrages plotted and these were called for by wire phone by observers forward in the trenches. Pre-planned offensive barrages could be elaborate and could “roll forward” to suppress enemy positions in front of advancing troops. Unfortunately these rolling barrages could not take into account changing battlefield conditions and thus could wind up hitting friendly troops if the troops advanced faster than planned. Or the barrage could move beyond the useful support range of friendly troops if their attack moved slower than planned. The ability to redirect fire during a mobile battle was not a part of the WWI artillery methods, nor mostly was the use of radio to direct artillery fire though experiments were conducted before the end of WWII. Contrast this with the US Army methods, which involved wide spread use of radios to call for fire by multiple artillery units within the Corps area. The “time on target” capability directed fire onto a single target from multiple artillery units all planned to land at the same time ( which meant a plan had to be made to coordinate the shooting units to all fire a different times in order to enable to rounds to land on the target at the same time ). The effects of a well coordinated TOT mission could be momentarily devastating, shocking the enemy into a suppressed state and allowing attacking troops to overrun enemy positions, if they moved quickly. Also, the ability of platoons, companies, battalions and regiments all to call for fire from pools of division and Corps level artillery was a much more flexible system than that practiced in any other Army, the British and Germans coming the closet but both having more restrictive systems than the USA. On the other hand for the most part, the other combatants, used WWI methods including Soviets, Italians, Japanese, 1940 French.
3. Simulation: Most wargames over the past 40 years have made at least 1 of the following mistakes regarding the modeling of artillery.
a. Emplacement: Many games require extended emplacement times ( hours or days ). Actually it only takes a few minutes to deploy and lay a battery of field artillery ( I speak from experience having spent 4 years in the US Army Field Artillery during the 1970s ). However, bringing up sufficient ammunition to fire sustained barrages, or laying wire to forward observers, or creating a fire plan for a given sector, these activities can take hours to days and are perhaps what it really being modeled though some might take away the impression from these systems that “deploying the guns” takes hours, which it does not. Further, the US Army, in WWII, due to the fire control methods used should be able to set up and fire with no delay, though sustained barrages would require delay to bring up ammunition, but rapid support using the onboard ammunition carried in the battery could be fired with no delay.
b. Fire against the defense strength – advantage of concentration. Perhaps the more frustrating mistake made, is in game systems where artillery must fire against the “defense strength” of a stack. In this case, the more units the defender piles into the hex, the less effective the artillery will be. This is exactly the opposite of real life. Any accurate modeling of artillery must produce higher casualties for greater concentrations of troops in the fire zone.
c. Treat all combatants the same. As was discussed above, the fire control systems employed by the USA ( and to some extent the British and Germans ) were significant advances over the WWI methods employed by the other major combatants ( Soviets, Japanese, Italians, 1940 French ) yet most games only have one artillery model ( often something roughly like the German or British models ) which short changes the Americans, yet significantly increases the Soviet, Italian and the others in ability. An accurate model of WWII artillery will differentiate the systems at least between the US, Brit, German on the one hand and everyone else on the other hand.
d. Bigger is better. Many game systems stick with a single “bombardment strength” for each artillery unit and assign higher ( or much higher ) strengths to artillery units with larger sized tubes. Unfortunately reality is somewhat different. If you do the calculations, you will see that ( for field artillery – and BTW this whole post is about field artillery versus light mortars or heavier siege artillery ) the weight of metal going down range for a 105mm Howitzer is about the same as that for a 155mm hositzer for a typical mission profile over a given amount of time. This is because the heavier projectiles of the 155mm piece are offset by the higher sustainable rate of fire of the 105mm piece. But that does not mean they should have the same “bombardment” strength either. Realize that “Bombardment strength” is an abstract derived value, not a piece of raw data ( you can’t look up the “bombardment strength” in a history book about artillery ). Accounts of WWII battles seem to indicate that the 105mm howitzer ( in the US Army ) was very effective at firing close support defensive barrages. Since in theory the 155mm howitzer puts out the same amount of metal we might expect the effectiveness of the two to be the same when firing defensive barrages. But, the 105mm would’ve been more available to the average line unit ( more tubes in a division and more likely to be “on call” for a typical front line unit ( also the 105mm fire could be called in closer to friendly troops because of smaller blast radius and hence less likely to hit friendly troops and probably because the higher rate of fire of the 105mm meant that more rounds were going off in a shorter period of time and this gave the impression of greater effectiveness. However, the greater concussion effect of the larger rounds may have had as much effect on stopping attacks as did the smaller ( 105 ) though the impression of the troops is otherwise. But moving on to artillery fire against any type of fortified position, this is where the heavier pieces become more effective. Against light fortifications ( foxholes – i.e. 6 foot deep holes ) the heavier pieces are more likely to churn up more ground and are less dependent upon ground burst providing the primary effect. Hence even against light fortifications heavier pieces may be slightly more effective. Also, howitzers and mortars will start to be more effective against these types of targets than guns. Against trenches, same tendency but to a more marked degree. Trenches may be 9 feet deep, with a firing step. Hence ground bursts will have little effect on trench systems. Also flat trajectory weapons will have small effect. Heavy Howitzers will penetrate the ground and be able to damage or destroy parts of a trench system, mortars will be most likely to fall into a trench damaging the trench and any personnel or equipment in the area. Moving on to bunkers ( i.e. overhead cover constructed of earth and wood ) or pillboxes ( concrete positions ) the heavier pieces are mandatory to do any damage. Lighter ( 105mm ) artillery will have little effect on these types of positions. Thus the point here is that the weight of the projectile needs to be modified by rate of fire and by amount and type of fortification before determining the “bombardment strength” ( the bombardment strength being defined as the effective firing strength the artillery weapon has in the game ).
4. Raw Data
a. Gun bore width ( 155mm )
b. # of bore widths contained in bore length ( 155L30 )
c. Year of manufacture ( 1941 )
d. Nation(s) ( USA , Britain )
e. Other designation ( M1A1 )
f. Weight of piece ( 6000 lbs )
g. Crew ( 10 )
h. Typical prime mover ( 5 Ton Truck 4x6 )
i. Projectile types and effects
j. Maximum charges
k. Typical charges
l. Max rate of fire
m. Max sustained rate of fire
n. Max range, per projectile, per charge
o. Max typical range, per projectile per charge
p. Type of fire control ( radio FDC, wire FDC, preplanned, nation )
5. Derived ) Game ) data
a. Fire mission profiles ( 1 or more per weapon ) these include
i. Projectile, charge, duration, weight of fire on target, range, % chance of damaging weapon, weight of ammo expended, target types, target modifiers
b. Crew training, experience, amount of time emplaced, recon against target,




JeffroK -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 7:25:25 AM)

Thats going to take a couple of reads to sink in :-)

Can the TOAW system be looked at, especially now Matrix runs it.

It has limited stacking, based on the scale of the Hex, You can nominate various levels of combat i.e probe, standard & assault or bombard. Units behind the lines can be nominated at 2 levels of reserve, and can get to move to reinforce a hex being attacked. As well as the standard map, you can micro-manage a hex and alloctae your attack (and maybe defense?) into left-right flank or centre, this allows holding attacks and outflanking attackes within a Hex (Tie this to Leader skills, give the Jap the ability to outflank in early days and take the skill from the Allies for a year or two).

I like TOAW but it has plenty of problems, but its at least worth a look at for ideas.

Allow combat to stay within a hex a lot longer, at 60km a hex there is a lot of space for advance-retreat, you could even argue a case for shared facilities so that both side could have a port/airbase in the same hex. On G'Canal the Jap had a "Port" of sorts and had space for an airfield (Whoops, G'canal has 2 hexes [sm=00000734.gif]





Roger Neilson -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 10:46:44 AM)

If the game stays mainly similar then the ability to 'reshuffle' the stack of units in a hex would be good. In reality a commander frequently wqould choose which unit to put in the lead on attack or which unit to put on the key defence frontage. This could, I am sure lead to potential greater micromanagement (not my favourite thing) but might be only used occasionally and to significant effect.

Roger




Andrew Brown -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 12:54:17 PM)

Regarding this comment from the "Uber WITP" discissions:

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
Ground System
2. General. This system is primarily NOT a same hex combat system. WITP ( both the board game version and the computer game version ) are same hex combat systems. So I’m assuming we can make a non-same hex system work. Due to the need for Island combat we will need a sub-system for same hex combat, but I’m hoping we can fix mainland Asian combat by removing the same hex system and yet still have a same hex sub-system that will allow Island combat to take place correctly.



I am not so sure about using a "non-same hex" (adjacent hex) combat system. I think such systems are best when land units can move multiple hexes in a turn. However in WitP, even if it used a 30 mile hex size, it is the opposite - multiple turns of movement per hex (except for rail movement, but that should be treated as "strategic movement anyway). With that style of movement system, how would adjacent hex combat work? You would have to oder an attack, then wait several turns until it is executed. For some reason that doesn't feel right to me.

I think a same hex combat system can work well enough if some of the problems of the WitP system are ironed out. It would also save having to use a separate system for land battles on islands.

Andrew




treespider -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Discussion (3/19/2006 2:08:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

Stacking limits, stacking limits, stacking limits (especially on atolls). [:D]


Based on what? Acutal Square mileage of the atoll? How would th elimits be determined? More restrictive supply penalties?


Not a bad way to start. Any more than 1 man per 25 square yards gets NO fortification or defense bonus, and much higher casualties. Even that puts only 4 yards between foxholes. Some way of controlling the idiocy of deploying defenders shoulder-to-shoulder and having it be a good thing needs to be found.



But let's say for instance that you wanted to apply the ground combat model to different theaters and times, perhaps allowable unit density should be tied to foritification level - ala WWI, as well as, terrain type - ala certain atolls.




treespider -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 2:33:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Here are some thoughts I posted last year on the Uber WITP forum ( a group of about 20 of us started this up to determine level of interest in a WITP-2 ... a.k.a. Uber WITP ) these ideas were not received warmly by all .. and I posted 2 revisions to this document subsequently .. but for purposes of this discussion, I'd like to go back to the original version first.



Ground System

1. Overview: Below appears a first attempt to describe a ground system. This is not to say we must use this system, but we need to start getting some ideas floating. In case you think you recognize some of this, I am “stealing” from both CNA (Campaign for North Africa – and old SPI board game) and EIA( and old Australian Design Group board game ) and probably other games too ! And then I’m making some of this up ( I think ! ).
2. General. This system is primarily NOT a same hex combat system. WITP ( both the board game version and the computer game version ) are same hex combat systems. So I’m assuming we can make a non-same hex system work. Due to the need for Island combat we will need a sub-system for same hex combat, but I’m hoping we can fix mainland Asian combat by removing the same hex system and yet still have a same hex sub-system that will allow Island combat to take place correctly.
3. Front and Back. As per CNA this system assumes that within each hex some troops are forward ( defending the front line ) and other troops are back behind the lines providing support of some type. This protects the support troops from being caught in the battle and also is the way real battles are fought ( more or less ). Front line troops will be assumed to be more or less evenly distributed across the “front”. The “front” being defined as those hexsides known to contain enemy troops. It is envisioned that the player will be allowed to adjust this distribution ( by designating some units to be “pegged” to a specific hexside. It is also envisioned that the player may allow the AI ( i.e. the hex commander ) to adjust the distribution. Troop types will have default roles ( line or support ) also terrain may modify the default role for a troop type ( armor for example would default to support in Jungle or swamp terrain ). Artillery could be either forward or to the rear. If forward - artillery could be used to support the front with direct fire but would be more vulnerable. The role of the primary troop type of a unit, would be the role of that unit, so an armored unit might have tanks and staff and maintenance … but the unit would be “line” by default. Line units in the rear may be designated as reserves, in which case they would reinforce the front if needed. Units held in the rear may also be designated as flankers.
4. Order types. The units in a hex must have a general overall order. Order types would include.
a. Rush ( an assault ) in this case an adjacent hexsides must be designated to assault across.
b. Infiltration attack ( same as above ) Of course a rush is more of an all out attack, whereas an infiltration attack is more careful.
c. Concentrated or Broad front, this is a second attribute of a rush attack or an infiltration attack, indicating the attack is taking place or a more narrow front or on a broad front … broad front would be the default. Concentrated attacks will attempt to double up the troop density at the point of attack.
d. Flank. A flank attack will attempt to find a weak flank and launch a designated flanker force at this weak spot. A normal attack ( broad front – rush ) must be launched to pin the enemy in place. The success of the flank attack will depend on a number of factors, leadership, mobility in the terrain in question, recon points accumulated against the enemy. Length of time in the position. Training and Experience.
e. Refused Flank – this defense acknowledges weakness in the defending position, but takes steps to address this weakness by refusing the flank. This type of defense is most effective against a flank attack as essentially, the defender has correctly guess the attackers plan and designed the defense specifically against it.
f. Cordon – this is a broad front defense, where front line forces are evenly distributed across the front. It is most effective against a broadfront attack.
g. Hedgehog. This defense assumes the front is withdrawn to cover more valuable positions in the hex. This defense allows enemy guns which are forward to attack installations ( ports, airfields, supply dumps ) in the hex but optimizes the defense against “concentrated” attack.
h. Patroling, this order attempts to determine what is in the adjacent hex. There is higher risk to recon units if this order is using this order.
i. Probe, stronger form of recon using line units. Will result in formation of a bridgehead in the adjacent hex if the probing force is significantly stronger than the defending force.
j. Delay – opposite of probe, this defending order type will attempt to use economy of force to slow down an advancing enemy, but is in support of a general withdrawal plan. If met by sufficient force, especially by broadfront attack, delay forces will withdraw from the hex. Front line ( rear guard ) forces will take losses but forces held in the rear ( covered ) will rarely take losses. On the other hand against a probe – the delaying action will usually hold the hex.
k. Engineer support. Front line units may be ordered to have engineer support ( with the engineer units thus in the front line ). Engineer support will tend to retard enemy movement and enhance friendly movement, at the cost of greater casualties for the engineers.
l. Armor support. In terrain types where armor is a support type. Armor in the front line is assumed to be supporting the friendly units by providing fire support. The number of armored vehicles which can support is severely constrained.
m. Artillery support. Artillery in the front lines may be more effective ( depending on fire control doctrine and depending or enemy fortification type ( and other factors ) but will be more vulnerable to enemy fire.
5. Hexsides and counter attacks.
a. If an enemy attack achieves a “breakthrough” result. Reserves and units allocated to adjacent hexsides may attempt to counterattack to defeat the breakthrough. Real war narratives seem to indicate that counterattacks were most likely to be successful if launched immediately, even if only small numbers of troops were involved. The disorganized state of the attacker is thus apparently quit high immediately after the breakthrough, but returns to a greater state of organization “fairly” quickly. Obviously a number of factors would bear on this equation. Thus small number of forces from the hex in question may counterattack, whether in reserve or manning an adjacent hexside. The respective order types of the players will bear on the chance of a counter attack and the amount of delay before it is launched and hence whether the counter attack is successful. If the enemy is launching a broadfront attack, then the counterattack chance by front line troops is much smaller, they are pinned by attacking enemy forces. However, reserves from within the hex may be able to counterattack. If the attacker had “concentrated” attack orders, then front line troops nearby which are not being attacked with have a better chance of being able to counter attack. Front line troops counterattacking with have the smallest amount of delay. Re-area reserves pegged as reserves to the hexside in question will be the next quickest to react. General reserves will be the slowest. Once a “breakthrough” result has occurred, a clock will start ticking. And a die roll will be made for
b. (a) front line troops assigned to the hexside attacked ( only if concentrated attack orders are in place ). If defender has hedgehog orders, then % chance of counter attack is increased, if defender has cordon, then % chance is decreased. If this percentage fails for the defender, then the clock advances and a die roll is made for front line troops assigned to adjacent hexsides ( if any ). In this case broadfront attack will reduce their chance of counter attacking, concentrated defense will increase it. Broadfront defense will increase, hedgehog will decrease. If this roll is missed, then the clock is advanced and reserves pegged to the hexside in question are checked. Broadfront defense will slightly decrease their chance. If this roll fails, then the clock advances and general reserves are checked. Again, broadfront defense will slightly decrease their chance.
c. If a counterattack happens then several factors will determine the success of the counterattack. This post is not meant to be a final design for this system, but merely a description of the concepts, hence I won’t drill into the details here .. but factors such as time elapsed on the ticking clock, mobility of the counterattacking forces in the present terrain, leadership, training, experience, weapons, terrain, weather, fire support, and so on. A counterattack may abstractly represent several counter attacks occurring simultaneously, but in the “system” we will execute ( or not ) one counterattack per breakthrough result per hex, per game impulse.


Interesting the idea for discrete game impulses has also been introduced into the A2A model. The one question I have is how would the engine account for simultaneous attacks across multiple hexsides?

quote:


6. Command
a. Within a hex, there should be one or more HQs for a side. Preferably one. If more than one, then a penalty should apply. Various orders will be applicable at the supreme HQ level ( within the hex ) though some orders may be applicable at lower levels.


Why should a penalty apply? I would think if you had more HQ's the the individual units should get a bonus for immediate response from the HQ...unless your implying that multiple HQ's would attempt to assume control of the same unit in the hex and suffer coordination penalties.

quote:


7. Bridgeheads, Beachheads, Airheads and hedgehogs.
a. The need for same hex combat will exist in this game. The system described here proposes to handle this with a combination of bridgeheads, beachheads, airheads and hedgehogs.
b. When opposing forces occupy the same hex, one of these combatants will be the attacker and the other the defender.
c. First in order to enter a defender’s hex, either combat results, or terrain or method of entry into the hex may dictate that same hex combat occur. We will first discuss the three “methods of entry”.
d. River crossing. When an attacker is attempting an opposed river crossing, some combat results, will dictate that a bridgehead has been formed. In the case, the defender still controls the hex all installations in the hex, but the attacker has created a lodge-ment, presumably with rafts, ferries and perhaps pontoon bridges. Because a river crossing will occur across a particular hexside, the bridgehead is always associated with a particular hexside. Once a bridgehead is formed, three results are possible upon subsequent combat by forces attacking from the bridgehead … or forces attacking the bridgehead.
i. Bridgehead is expanded. In this case the bridgehead owner now owns the hex and the defender is either retreated or forced into a hedgehog.
ii. Bridgehead is eliminated. In the case the forces formerly in the bridgehead are retreated into the hex from whence they came and the original hex owner now regains full ownership of the hex.
iii. Bridgehead is sustained. In this case the status of the bridgehead is unchanged.
e. Beach Landing. When an attacker is performing an opposed landing upon an enemy held beach, combat results may indicate that a beachhead is formed. A beach landing may be a hexside attack ( if against the coastline of a major landmass ) or a small island/atoll attack ( if against a single hex Island ). These would be treated similarly in most cases, with the major exception of the case where an adjoining hex is held for forces friendly to the forces creating the beachhead. But otherwise a beachhead is very similar to a bridgehead. We may decide that if a beach head is eliminated that “retreating” forces take heavier losses when reboarding their vessels. The cases of this happening in WWII are few and far between ( but greater than zero ) … Milne Bay and Dieppe being the ones I can think of.
f. Air Head. Airborne units landing in enemy occupied hexes will create an airhead and airhead is not associated with a hexside and thus is considered to be an abstract contiguous region with the hex in question. The airhead is completely surrounded by the enemy forces in the hex. Whether the attacking airborne forces have captured any installations with be left to the developer of this system, but it cannot be ruled out entirely. The purpose of the attack may have been to capture specific installations. But the subsequent results are as per 7(d) except if the airhead is eliminated then the forces in the airhead have either become prisoners or been evacuated to an adjacent friendly hex.


Perhaps the single hex combat should be universal especially if the map scale remains constant.

Instead of ZOC's for hexes introduce ZOCs for hexsides ...something which is not practical for cardboard and paper but could be implemented on the computer. The ZOC's in a hex indicated by a letter on one side of the hexside. If an enemy unit enters the hex the hexside it enters from becomes contested. After one days battle the results could indicate that the the hexside changed control or remained contested. Units would only be allowed to leave a hex from a hexisde they control or a contested hexside.

Bases and other facilities could also be tied to a hexside to reflect the relative position of the base within the hex. A port could be place on hexside 3 whereas the airfield is on hexside 6.

quote:


8. Firepower
a. This system assumes that firepower is predominate. Thus all forms of combat will resolve themselves down to a defensive fire phase and an offensive fire phase. If the developer of this system deems it appropriate a subsequent “melee” phase may need to be added as well. If possible, all fire should be against the terrain. Of course the number of shooting weapons, the terrain, the relative troop densities and a number of other factors need to be considered, but it is expected that most battles will be resolved by the firepower results, rather than by “cold steel melees”.


Why shouldn't the shooting be simultaneous?

quote:


9. Retreats
a. This system will of course require retreats, Just like in current WITP, a retreat immediately displaces the retreating forces 60 miles away. The attacker then must traverse this distance before he can again engage the enemy. This is obviously an abstraction, but a non-same-hex system will enable to forces causing the retreat to be able to engage immediately. So now we must be attune to the problem of successive combats by a stronger force against a weaker force allowing an advance that is too rapid. I’ll leave it to the developer to work out how to deal with this problem.


See the above on hexside control.

quote:



10. Recon
a. Ground force Recon from within the hex in question should count the most towards success or failure of events affected the hex in question. Strategic recon assets would have little applicability to events inside a hex from a ground combat perspective. It just was not possible to pass strategic Intel down to the forces in the trenches fast enough to be of use.



No problem




treespider -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 2:41:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

And this was also a part of last year's discussion. I posted this as an example of the level of detail I hoped to "start with" .. not necessarily what winds up in the game .. but we need to start with detail and then abstract for effect in accordance with the design goals.

Artillery

1. Definitions:
a. Gun: Normally uses trajectories under 45 degrees. Guns are flat trajectory weapons, used for direct and indirect fire, smaller bore ( under 75mm ) being used primarily for direct fire, larger bore ( over 100mm ) being used primarily for indirect fire. Guns also often have armored piercing and anti-fortification ammunition. Gun lengths are normal L30 and above (meaning the length of the bore is 30 times or more the width of the bore). While guns can be used in a bunker busting role, this often requires them to be brought forward where direct fire can be employed, thus making them more vulnerable. They are not as useful against trenches due to their flat trajectory.
b. Howitzer: Normally uses trajectories between 30 and 60 degrees. Howitzers were traditionally mixed shell and shot firing weapons with a higher trajectory than guns and a lower trajectory than mortars. Modern howitzers deliver a large payload at a lower muzzle velocity than guns. They are useful against trenches and in a direct fire role, though not as much so as their cousins the mortar and the gun.
c. Mortar: Normally users trajectories over 45 degrees. Very useful against trenches due to their plunging fire ability. Least useful against direct fire mobile targets, due to inability to aim using direct fire principles. Mortars can deliver the highest payload with the least propellant, but do so at the lowest muzzle velocity. Generally small and medium sized mortars ( up to 82mm ) are considered infantry heavy weapons and not artillery.
d. Note, the definitions have changed over time ( and have been around for centuries ) and also the definitions certainly have overlapped in recent decades, so these are not mutually exclusive definitions !


I could see artillery being affected by terrain depending on the type of weapon system being employed. Howitzers and Mortars being more effective than guns in hilly mountainous terrain for example.

quote:


2. Fire Control: WWII was a transition period between earlier fire control methods and methods used post war. WWI methods generally relied on exact emplacement and pre-planned fire by the map, based on reconnaissance of terrain and enemy positions. Likely attack routes had pre-planned barrages plotted and these were called for by wire phone by observers forward in the trenches. Pre-planned offensive barrages could be elaborate and could “roll forward” to suppress enemy positions in front of advancing troops. Unfortunately these rolling barrages could not take into account changing battlefield conditions and thus could wind up hitting friendly troops if the troops advanced faster than planned. Or the barrage could move beyond the useful support range of friendly troops if their attack moved slower than planned. The ability to redirect fire during a mobile battle was not a part of the WWI artillery methods, nor mostly was the use of radio to direct artillery fire though experiments were conducted before the end of WWII. Contrast this with the US Army methods, which involved wide spread use of radios to call for fire by multiple artillery units within the Corps area. The “time on target” capability directed fire onto a single target from multiple artillery units all planned to land at the same time ( which meant a plan had to be made to coordinate the shooting units to all fire a different times in order to enable to rounds to land on the target at the same time ). The effects of a well coordinated TOT mission could be momentarily devastating, shocking the enemy into a suppressed state and allowing attacking troops to overrun enemy positions, if they moved quickly. Also, the ability of platoons, companies, battalions and regiments all to call for fire from pools of division and Corps level artillery was a much more flexible system than that practiced in any other Army, the British and Germans coming the closet but both having more restrictive systems than the USA. On the other hand for the most part, the other combatants, used WWI methods including Soviets, Italians, Japanese, 1940 French.
3. Simulation: Most wargames over the past 40 years have made at least 1 of the following mistakes regarding the modeling of artillery.
a. Emplacement: Many games require extended emplacement times ( hours or days ). Actually it only takes a few minutes to deploy and lay a battery of field artillery ( I speak from experience having spent 4 years in the US Army Field Artillery during the 1970s ). However, bringing up sufficient ammunition to fire sustained barrages, or laying wire to forward observers, or creating a fire plan for a given sector, these activities can take hours to days and are perhaps what it really being modeled though some might take away the impression from these systems that “deploying the guns” takes hours, which it does not. Further, the US Army, in WWII, due to the fire control methods used should be able to set up and fire with no delay, though sustained barrages would require delay to bring up ammunition, but rapid support using the onboard ammunition carried in the battery could be fired with no delay.
b. Fire against the defense strength – advantage of concentration. Perhaps the more frustrating mistake made, is in game systems where artillery must fire against the “defense strength” of a stack. In this case, the more units the defender piles into the hex, the less effective the artillery will be. This is exactly the opposite of real life. Any accurate modeling of artillery must produce higher casualties for greater concentrations of troops in the fire zone.
c. Treat all combatants the same. As was discussed above, the fire control systems employed by the USA ( and to some extent the British and Germans ) were significant advances over the WWI methods employed by the other major combatants ( Soviets, Japanese, Italians, 1940 French ) yet most games only have one artillery model ( often something roughly like the German or British models ) which short changes the Americans, yet significantly increases the Soviet, Italian and the others in ability. An accurate model of WWII artillery will differentiate the systems at least between the US, Brit, German on the one hand and everyone else on the other hand.
d. Bigger is better. Many game systems stick with a single “bombardment strength” for each artillery unit and assign higher ( or much higher ) strengths to artillery units with larger sized tubes. Unfortunately reality is somewhat different. If you do the calculations, you will see that ( for field artillery – and BTW this whole post is about field artillery versus light mortars or heavier siege artillery ) the weight of metal going down range for a 105mm Howitzer is about the same as that for a 155mm hositzer for a typical mission profile over a given amount of time. This is because the heavier projectiles of the 155mm piece are offset by the higher sustainable rate of fire of the 105mm piece. But that does not mean they should have the same “bombardment” strength either. Realize that “Bombardment strength” is an abstract derived value, not a piece of raw data ( you can’t look up the “bombardment strength” in a history book about artillery ). Accounts of WWII battles seem to indicate that the 105mm howitzer ( in the US Army ) was very effective at firing close support defensive barrages. Since in theory the 155mm howitzer puts out the same amount of metal we might expect the effectiveness of the two to be the same when firing defensive barrages. But, the 105mm would’ve been more available to the average line unit ( more tubes in a division and more likely to be “on call” for a typical front line unit ( also the 105mm fire could be called in closer to friendly troops because of smaller blast radius and hence less likely to hit friendly troops and probably because the higher rate of fire of the 105mm meant that more rounds were going off in a shorter period of time and this gave the impression of greater effectiveness. However, the greater concussion effect of the larger rounds may have had as much effect on stopping attacks as did the smaller ( 105 ) though the impression of the troops is otherwise. But moving on to artillery fire against any type of fortified position, this is where the heavier pieces become more effective. Against light fortifications ( foxholes – i.e. 6 foot deep holes ) the heavier pieces are more likely to churn up more ground and are less dependent upon ground burst providing the primary effect. Hence even against light fortifications heavier pieces may be slightly more effective. Also, howitzers and mortars will start to be more effective against these types of targets than guns. Against trenches, same tendency but to a more marked degree. Trenches may be 9 feet deep, with a firing step. Hence ground bursts will have little effect on trench systems. Also flat trajectory weapons will have small effect. Heavy Howitzers will penetrate the ground and be able to damage or destroy parts of a trench system, mortars will be most likely to fall into a trench damaging the trench and any personnel or equipment in the area. Moving on to bunkers ( i.e. overhead cover constructed of earth and wood ) or pillboxes ( concrete positions ) the heavier pieces are mandatory to do any damage. Lighter ( 105mm ) artillery will have little effect on these types of positions. Thus the point here is that the weight of the projectile needs to be modified by rate of fire and by amount and type of fortification before determining the “bombardment strength” ( the bombardment strength being defined as the effective firing strength the artillery weapon has in the game ).
4. Raw Data
a. Gun bore width ( 155mm )
b. # of bore widths contained in bore length ( 155L30 )
c. Year of manufacture ( 1941 )
d. Nation(s) ( USA , Britain )
e. Other designation ( M1A1 )
f. Weight of piece ( 6000 lbs )
g. Crew ( 10 )
h. Typical prime mover ( 5 Ton Truck 4x6 )
i. Projectile types and effects
j. Maximum charges
k. Typical charges
l. Max rate of fire
m. Max sustained rate of fire
n. Max range, per projectile, per charge
o. Max typical range, per projectile per charge
p. Type of fire control ( radio FDC, wire FDC, preplanned, nation )
5. Derived ) Game ) data
a. Fire mission profiles ( 1 or more per weapon ) these include
i. Projectile, charge, duration, weight of fire on target, range, % chance of damaging weapon, weight of ammo expended, target types, target modifiers
b. Crew training, experience, amount of time emplaced, recon against target,




Nothing like detail...[:)]




mogami -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 3:15:32 PM)

Hi, Gotta be carefull with stacking limits. Iwo Jima was defended by 21,000 Japanese but attacked by 70,000 Americans. I think if we make the logistics right we will limit the stacking. For example suppose we add water to the logistics required. Water would be consumed much faster then basic supply. water could do a good job limiting the amount of defenders Japan is able to deploy to far off bases more then any stacking limit. (one problem with stacking limits per say is the Japanese dug tunnels on many bases that were multi layered and so increased the "space" available for housing troops.

I'm not sure have we decided to go Operational Level agaain or are we looking to get more invovlved in the tactical aspects? If we are going more tactical we need smaller scale map hexes and more detailed LCU.

I like the system from west Front or WIR where inside a unit you had subunits that tracked strength and status

example: (not an actual unit)
I Corps (unit on map but when you click on it)
1st Infantry Div (one of units contained in I Corps)
HQ CO 1st Infantry Div
1st Infantry Rgt
2nd Infantry Rgt
1st Arty Bn
1st AT Bn
1st Recon Bn
But if you click on one of these...
1st Infantry Rgt
HQ Co 1st Infantry Bn
1st Bn
2nd Bn
3rd Bn
4th Bn
11th AT Co
11th Recon Co

And so on. everything can be dragged from one unit to another. To form an Ad Hoc formation you just drag the units you want into an empty box and name it. To leave a unit behind for refit/rest/guard duty you just drag it and drop it.

So everything on the map in the same hex could be contained in a single unit

1st Army
I Corps
II Corps

with everything right inside the 1st Army symbol on map.

Don't let me get started.




keeferon01 -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 4:58:28 PM)

Mr.Mogami is the only guy that ever makes sense to me on these boards, this is the only way land combat will ever work, I say that the game builders take a very close look at either panzer campaigns or the modern campaigns model of land combat




Sonny -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 5:28:16 PM)

quote:

quote:


9. Retreats
a. This system will of course require retreats, Just like in current WITP, a retreat immediately displaces the retreating forces 60 miles away. The attacker then must traverse this distance before he can again engage the enemy. This is obviously an abstraction, but a non-same-hex system will enable to forces causing the retreat to be able to engage immediately. So now we must be attune to the problem of successive combats by a stronger force against a weaker force allowing an advance that is too rapid. I’ll leave it to the developer to work out how to deal with this problem.


The retreating unit being displaced X miles away in the retreat hex is good to prevent steam rolling (unless combat is changed so the offensive units get more disorganized and damaged). While I think 60 miles is too much a 30 mile displacement seems about right, i.e. 30 mile hexes.




Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 5:50:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Gotta be carefull with stacking limits. Iwo Jima was defended by 21,000 Japanese but attacked by 70,000 Americans. I think if we make the logistics right we will limit the stacking. For example suppose we add water to the logistics required. Water would be consumed much faster then basic supply. water could do a good job limiting the amount of defenders Japan is able to deploy to far off bases more then any stacking limit. (one problem with stacking limits per say is the Japanese dug tunnels on many bases that were multi layered and so increased the "space" available for housing troops.

I'm not sure have we decided to go Operational Level agaain or are we looking to get more invovlved in the tactical aspects? If we are going more tactical we need smaller scale map hexes and more detailed LCU.

I like the system from west Front or WIR where inside a unit you had subunits that tracked strength and status

example: (not an actual unit)
I Corps (unit on map but when you click on it)
1st Infantry Div (one of units contained in I Corps)
HQ CO 1st Infantry Div
1st Infantry Rgt
2nd Infantry Rgt
1st Arty Bn
1st AT Bn
1st Recon Bn
But if you click on one of these...
1st Infantry Rgt
HQ Co 1st Infantry Bn
1st Bn
2nd Bn
3rd Bn
4th Bn
11th AT Co
11th Recon Co

And so on. everything can be dragged from one unit to another. To form an Ad Hoc formation you just drag the units you want into an empty box and name it. To leave a unit behind for refit/rest/guard duty you just drag it and drop it.

So everything on the map in the same hex could be contained in a single unit

1st Army
I Corps
II Corps

with everything right inside the 1st Army symbol on map.

Don't let me get started.


This would be perfect for my basic command leader theory/idea.[;)]




BaitBoy -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Discussion (3/19/2006 6:39:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Actually for WitP II my preference would be to drop the concept of "base hexes" and "non-base hexes" entirely. Airfields and ports would be able to exist in any hex, or be built in any hex (within reason).




I like this idea. It should not be easy to build an airfield in the midle of nowhere, but it should be posible if the player wants to take the time and effort to do do. A building cost based on the terain type would be good too. It is easier to build an airfield on a flat plain than on the side of a mountain. . .




witpqs -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/19/2006 9:51:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

9. Retreats
a. This system will of course require retreats, Just like in current WITP, a retreat immediately displaces the retreating forces 60 miles away. The attacker then must traverse this distance before he can again engage the enemy. This is obviously an abstraction, but a non-same-hex system will enable to forces causing the retreat to be able to engage immediately. So now we must be attune to the problem of successive combats by a stronger force against a weaker force allowing an advance that is too rapid. I’ll leave it to the developer to work out how to deal with this problem.


Suggestion that does away with the teleporting: When a unit is retreating, its status is 'Retreating to xxx,yyy'. How many turns it remains in this state depends upon terrain & movement issues. Same for the units that cause the retreat - 'Advancing to xxx,yyy'. Both retreating and advancing units should get some movement bonus. Possibly, additional casualties might be taken during the retreat by the retreating forces. Of course, no orders can be issued to forces that are 'Retreating' or 'Advancing'. Optionally, 'Advancing' units might be allowed to abort the advance, but should do so at the cost of giving up ZOC for the conquered hex.

Similarly, you could introduce the requirement of movement for units within a hex to get to a hexside or to the center of a hex (where the reserves are presumed to be).

It would have to be remembered that - between adjacent hexes - a unit moving from hex to hex might not have to travel 60 miles. For example, if already on the adjacent hexside, attacks & wins, the 'Advancing' state might only be 30 or 35 miles to the conquered hex center. Likewise, if on the opposite hexside prior to a movement command, the distance might be 85 or 90 miles.

Joe,

I like the basics of the system you've layed out. Seeing the same hex combat that you outlined, I think it would be far better to have both hexside and same hex combat everywhere (except one-hex islands of course). Fight to get into the hex, fight to take the hex. Only a far superior force could have a decent chance of taking a hex outright (without having to go through same-hex combat). Even then, 'Advancing' and 'Retreating' states influenced by terrain limited movement would deal nicely to slow down unrealistically advancing buzzsaws.

The comments Mogami made about the interface would be a huge benefit in managing all this.




fairplay -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/20/2006 12:47:04 AM)

A lot of players want stacking rules because of overstacking. For some atolls this may be true. But the main problem for 'normal' land hexes is 'understacking'. The size of a 60 miles hex is massively underestimated. Only to give you an idea you can see here the cauldron of Stalingrad. He fits nicely into a 60 miles hex. In the cauldron are nearly 300.000 german soldiers and allies, more than 20 divisions. Outside there was at least the same amount of soviet soldiers.



The battle in Normandy also fits into one hex (or perhaps two, depends where the grid lines are.The battle of the bulge to place in a 60 miles WITP hex, 30 allied divisions were involved in that battle. From the channel Beglium -Dutch border at the channel coast to the border of Switzerland the distance is 517 km (321 miles / 279 nautical miles). Let's be
generous and let asume that these are 7 WITP hexes. This perhaps gives a better impression about the dimensions.

Hex ownership
An artillery battalion cannot 'control' or 'own' a 60 mile hex. You need at least a division for that job. But that division cannot defend the hex. In WW2 a division could in general defend a frontline of up to 15 km / 9 miles. For a 60 miles hex this would mean at least 6 divisions. A division 'defending' in a 60 mile hex against a division of same size and quality will loose that battle. The defending division will be stretched across the whole hex. The attacking divison will concentrate in an area of its choice, will have a high numerical superiority in that place. The defending division will be destroyed piecemeal. If you assume that the defending division is concentrating its forces as well then it cannot control the hex anymore because the largest part is without troops.

Really weird is when a side 'owns' a hex by moving it through tat hex. Even without own forces your are still considered hexowner, which leads to the false conclusion that you still 'contro'the hex. When you leave a hex you will also loose the control. (This is similar with a credit card: when you take the credit card with you it is under your control. If you leave the card at home the card is out of your control. You cannot use it and you don't know what is happening to the card. It could be stolen by a burgler or your wife finds it[:(].) Assume that hex as a neutral hex because no forces are in it. If you want to cut off enemy forces that are moving in your hinterland a continuous frontline is the only solution that in real life can prevent enemy supply operations.

("We cannot drive further and deliver our supply to our troops!" "Why not?" Seven days ago a japanese artillery battalion has moved through this hex. This is a japanese hex!" "But I don't see anyone?" "That's true. They have left 2 days ago. The hex is empty. But we are not allowed to drive with supply through areas where enemy troops have been!" "Why??!!" "Don't ask, it's a rule.") When in the frontline only one hex is not covered (Distance from Ohmaha Beach to Avrances is only 48 miles) then there is no reason to prohibit enemy movement independently of the kind of enemy through that hole.

Wrong interpretation of the the effect of the hex size also leads to some strange implementations within the combat model. Forces in a contested hex can't move. An enemy attack independent of the size of the attack cancels all movement orders. The combat system prevents withdrawals. When encircled it prevents the reorganzation of onwn forces and an attempt to 'break out' of a cauldron. Disengagement and withdrawal are standard military procedures, difficult under enemy pressure, but of course possible. For unknown reasons the combat system prevents historical movement of forces.


ZOC
In WITP this is really a bad idea[sm=Christo_pull_hair.gif]. The combat elements have a range with direct fire of up to 2 km / 1.3 miles. The normal field artillery has a range of up to 10 km / 6 miles into enemy territory. Especially direct fire but also indirect fire depend on visibility of the target. At night this visibility will drop to less than 1 km / .6 miles. Artillery can of course fire 'blind'but this will greatly reduce the effectiveness. But even during day combat force will not be able to 'control' the enemy within combat range. But they are able to 'influence' him. In a tactiacl game with hex sizes of 1 km / .6 miles ZOCs may be useful. In a 60 miles hex forces can move in a corridor of 48 miles without any groundbased hostile interference. The 'ZOC'doesn't make sense with 60 miles hexes and should be skipped without replacement.


The combat model works as 'intended'. Unfortunately this implementation is too far away from reality. The main issue is that on a map with strategic size tactical combat is implemented in a way that doesn't fit to the map.

For those who want to transfer WITP into the Mediterranian: the Italian Peninsula is only up to 2 hexes deep (Meditarranian to Adriatic Sea), the front from El Alamein to Quatarra depression half a WITP hex (60 km,36 miles, 32 nautical miles). From the Mediterranian to Bir Hacheim one and a half hex (157 km, 97 miles, 84 nautical miles). But normally the combat concentrated more in the coastal zone. Does anybody think that that will be fun to play? A frontal onslaught in one or two hexes? [&:]
[&:][&:][&:]

[image]local://upfiles/20100/CAFA3E66E65D4A4AB56B5873BC480972.jpg[/image]




Mike Scholl -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Discussion (3/20/2006 2:56:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Not a bad way to start. Any more than 1 man per 25 square yards gets NO fortification or defense bonus, and much higher casualties. Even that puts only 4 yards between foxholes. Some way of controlling the idiocy of deploying defenders shoulder-to-shoulder and having it be a good thing needs to be found.



But let's say for instance that you wanted to apply the ground combat model to different theaters and times, perhaps allowable unit density should be tied to foritification level - ala WWI, as well as, terrain type - ala certain atolls.


What "certain atolls"? Coral atolls are only a few feet above water level. You can't dig in very far without drowning, so what fortifications you can build generally sit above ground level. The more of the coral you pile up into fortifications, the less atoll you have left. These just aren't very large pieces of ground. Now certain limits would also have to be placed on the attackers..., you can't land a Corps to attack a regiment on Wake either. The attackers can be somewhat thicker on the ground because they are up and moving rather than dug in to survive bombardment, but the real advantage of superior numbers here is the constant replacement of losses so that the odds against the defenders (who can't replace theirs) constantly increase. But the scale of the battles which could be waged on these specs of land is quite limited.




1275psi -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/20/2006 3:21:56 AM)

OK, Im no expert, but what i would like should not be too hard
You click on a hex
Now a seperate screen opens -the hex is a mini map of its own -and one sees some sort of land combat that you guys knows works real well (I do not play enough games to nominate one) .
When you control 75% of the hexes in that hex , its yours.

Air combat could target individual hexes inside this hex.

No idea how to make it work, or how to do the map, but I think it would solve some problems - then again?
Anyways -30 mile hexes sound more agreeable than 60.




GaryChildress -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/20/2006 7:26:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fairplay

A lot of players want stacking rules because of overstacking. For some atolls this may be true. But the main problem for 'normal' land hexes is 'understacking'. The size of a 60 miles hex is massively underestimated. Only to give you an idea you can see here the cauldron of Stalingrad. He fits nicely into a 60 miles hex. In the cauldron are nearly 300.000 german soldiers and allies, more than 20 divisions. Outside there was at least the same amount of soviet soldiers.



The battle in Normandy also fits into one hex (or perhaps two, depends where the grid lines are.The battle of the bulge to place in a 60 miles WITP hex, 30 allied divisions were involved in that battle. From the channel Beglium -Dutch border at the channel coast to the border of Switzerland the distance is 517 km (321 miles / 279 nautical miles). Let's be
generous and let asume that these are 7 WITP hexes. This perhaps gives a better impression about the dimensions.



This may apply to parts of China and India, but when it comes to Jungle terrain like Guadalcanal, New Guinea and such, I don't think you can stack like you could in Europe or the Russian steppes. Maybe I'm wrong but I think the Pacific theatre was more about controlling bases, than it was about controlling ground. Jungle isn't all that important to hold on to although you do need to cover your flanks and tail.




GaryChildress -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/20/2006 7:39:22 AM)

von Beanie mentioned something in the Interface discussion thread about LCUs which I think is a good idea. When a division breaks up into regiments, instead of A, B and C units name the pieces by their regiment numbers.







fairplay -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/21/2006 7:50:35 AM)

I don't have a silver bullet with that I can solve this issue. But it is an issue. I guess you are right that the Pacific theater was more about bases. But WITP has also a Burma theater and a Chinese theater. And wasn't the recapture of the Phillipines more about taking ground? These are strategic or operational considerations. Independently from them army forces have their limits. A company, a battalion, a division can only defend a certain frontline. Terrain of course has an influence on this. Jungle needs a higher force ratio than open terrain.
When you lokk at the Guadalcanal map you will realize that the defense perimeter is pretty small in comparison to the island. Also the length of the perimeter is approximately those nine miles long that I mentioned before. When in December the 1. Marine division was withdrawn 3 divison (2nd Marine, 25th Infantry and Americal) were sent to finish the job. More troops were not available., it was not a stacking problem.
Outside of the U.S. defense perimeter the Japanese movements were hindered by terrain but not by a "ZOC".
If you want to hold 6 bases on New Guinea and don't eliminate the enemy forces you need 6 divisions to defend them.
I fully concur with your opinion on stacking on islands. There are definite limits.

I have mentioned the European theater because I am covinced that many underestimate the dimension of a 60 mile hex. (The Russians had wonderful woods and swamps, the Ardennes forrests were quite dense). On Okinawa by the way the U.S. were "stacking" 4 divisions on 8 miles.
While crawling through the interet I found a page with pretty darn nice maps.(www.dean.usma.edu/history/web03/atlases/ww2%20pacific/ww2%20pacific%20war%20index.htm ) At least the link may be useful[8|].

[image]local://upfiles/20100/920B9BD0025746D39B08F44B88C058F4.jpg[/image]




The Gnome -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (3/21/2006 8:46:42 PM)

Hey all :) Long time no post, but I'll take a whack at this one.

One thing I'd like on all units, in this case LCU's, is an intensity level from say 1-10. This would represent how much determination the specified unit would put into accomplishing its goal. An LCU with a setting of "1", for instance, would launch either a probing attack, or a delaying action on defense. Crank it up to 10, and the unit will fight until it breaks or accomplishes the task.

I could then as a commander set a level to preserve my forces or fight to the last - depending on the situation.




TheElf -> RE: WitP II Ground Combat Model Discussion (4/12/2006 5:04:51 AM)

Bump




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