RE: Beta Testing (Full Version)

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Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Beta Testing (3/28/2006 11:00:44 PM)

Provided by Patrice to show the new Swamp terrain.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/630ADF2D561947D68538B599E2085B30.jpg[/image]



vonCommander -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 12:02:17 AM)

This ist the most beautifull swamp I have ever seen and I have seen a lot of swamphexes in my live[:D]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 3:12:44 AM)

From: wfzimmerman

Caption: The Soviets are trying to knock Rumania out of the war early, which leaves the Red Army vulnerable to overruns west of Kiev.

[image]local://upfiles/10463/D2B09B8EAD5C46E6899DCCA44D534DC0.jpg[/image]



tigercub -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 8:04:33 AM)

screenshots nice to see thanks, bit confused german armor 5&6 movment whats the idea/need? ok the german were a bit rag tag but seems a little odd.



Froonp -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 9:19:03 AM)

quote:

From: wfzimmerman
Caption: The Soviets are trying to knock Rumania out of the war early, which leaves the Red Army vulnerable to overruns west of Kiev.

I believe this one is with the old style Swamps.
Patrice



Froonp -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 9:21:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tigercub

screenshots nice to see thanks, bit confused german armor 5&6 movment whats the idea/need? ok the german were a bit rag tag but seems a little odd.

In WiF FE, nearly all ARM Corps have a move of 5 or 6. Same for MECH.
Rare ARM units (DIV I believe) have a move of 4 only.

MOT units have a move of 4 or 5.
INF units have a move of 3 or 4. Some rare INF have a move of 2.
MIL units have a move of 2 or 3.
GARR units have a move of 1.



Matt242 -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 11:19:36 AM)

Nice screenshots indeed. Overall it looks very good.

A few (personal) comments:
1) I hope that all the beautifully drawn planes will find their way onto the counters.
2) The factory symbols are a little small, i guess. Any way to make them a little bigger and easier to find (and count)?
3) All units have a thin white line on top which is divided into six parts. On some units some of the little white boxes are shaded grey and dark grey. What does this mean?



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 11:55:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Matt242

Nice screenshots indeed. Overall it looks very good.

A few (personal) comments:
1) I hope that all the beautifully drawn planes will find their way onto the counters.
2) The factory symbols are a little small, i guess. Any way to make them a little bigger and easier to find (and count)?
3) All units have a thin white line on top which is divided into six parts. On some units some of the little white boxes are shaded grey and dark grey. What does this mean?


1 - Yes. Also the naval units. I intend to have 3 different levels of unit resolution. The high res will have a lot of detail, the medium res less, and the low res only a number or 2. The idea is that as you zoom out and the counters get smaller, the details will be removed, so the numbers can be larger and legible.

2 - A single hex can have a lot of icons: factories, resources, city, and port symbols. Some have all 4. Another problem arises when part of the hex contains ocean. I do so dislike placing the factory symbols in the waves. Removing the flags (a toggle switch does that) makes the icons easier to see, because then there is less clutter. You do have an excellent point that finding and counting factories and resources is a problem when playing. I will have to think about how best to do that. Suggestions are welcome.

3 - The status boxes at the top of the unts indicate supply, disruption, transporting other units, and other stuff. I want to reduce the number from 6 to 5 (possibly even down to 4) so they are somewhat larger. Perhaps varying their size too, so the disruption status box is the largest. All of that has yet to be reviewed in excrutiating detail (my favorite way to do that analysis). When I get to it, I'll post the design for review and critique by the forum members (before rewriting the code).



Matt242 -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 12:25:46 PM)

Thanks for the infos on that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

2 - A single hex can have a lot of icons: factories, resources, city, and port symbols. Some have all 4. Another problem arises when part of the hex contains ocean. I do so dislike placing the factory symbols in the waves. Removing the flags (a toggle switch does that) makes the icons easier to see, because then there is less clutter. You do have an excellent point that finding and counting factories and resources is a problem when playing. I will have to think about how best to do that. Suggestions are welcome.


To me, showing hex control all the time (and keeping hex space for the icon) is not that crucial. It would be better not to flow the map with too many icons. One loses overview quickly.
Umm, two quick ideas:
1) Give a hotkey to show hex control. Highlighting the owned/opponent hexes in this mode would help and could be switched off afterwards.
or
2) Show hex control via special colors around the edges of borderland-/front hexes. Many games incorporate this technique and it suits the matter fine, i guess.



JanSorensen -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 12:30:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matt242

To me, showing hex control all the time (and keeping hex space for the icon) is not that crucial. It would be better not to flow the map with too many icons. One loses overview quickly.
Umm, two quick ideas:
1) Give a hotkey to show hex control. Highlighting the owned/opponent hexes in this mode would help and could be switched off afterwards.


You appear to have missed that Steve posted that it is already in the game to turn those flags on and off:
quote:

Removing the flags (a toggle switch does that)



Matt242 -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 12:47:56 PM)

Thanks for reminding me. Forget my first point.

The other point we were talking about was enlarging some icons (factories) so they can be found more easily.
My cent was and is to leave out the icon space for control icons and enlarge the others.
I just offered ideas of alternatively showing/highlighting hex control.



Froonp -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 1:49:06 PM)

quote:

3) All units have a thin white line on top which is divided into six parts. On some units some of the little white boxes are shaded grey and dark grey. What does this mean?

From Top to Bottom.

Both Russian units in Minsk are disrupted (2nd little box is grey). The top unit is a Reserve, so this is normal. Same for the CAV in Gomel.
The Russian (5-3) INF is disrupted (2nd little box is grey).
The Russian (5-1) GARR in Brest-Livosk is both disrupted (2nd little box is grey) and isolated (4th little box is black). It is worth 1 combat point, and won't be reorganized if it survive this turn.
Many German planes between Krakow & Pskov are disrupted (2nd little box is grey) (due to have flown missions I suppose).
The Russian (3-1) GARR in Pskov is both disrupted (2nd little box is grey) and out of supply (4th little box is greenish).
The Russian (4-5) MOT southwest of Pskov is out of supply (4th little box is greenish).



mlees -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 5:19:59 PM)

quote:

2 - A single hex can have a lot of icons: factories, resources, city, and port symbols. Some have all 4. Another problem arises when part of the hex contains ocean. I do so dislike placing the factory symbols in the waves. Removing the flags (a toggle switch does that) makes the icons easier to see, because then there is less clutter. You do have an excellent point that finding and counting factories and resources is a problem when playing. I will have to think about how best to do that. Suggestions are welcome.


Hmmm. I am not sure if this has been covered in your map thread. I was wondering:

Make the computer find those hexes for the player.

Have the computer "count" the resources/oil/factory controlled by you, and possibly via a pull down menu, displaying a spreadsheet accessible at any phase of the turn, that lists the hexes that those things can be found, as well as highlight them (or put a dot in the hex, using the same base color for the regular map icon) on the minimap. You can also indicate in the spreadsheet which of those things are "out of supply", or just plain unused, with a visual cue on the minimap.

The mechanics for a lot of this is used by the computer during the production phase.



Ballista -> RE: Beta Testing (3/29/2006 5:21:28 PM)

The maps and units look great ! Thanks for the visual update. I can't wait to scroll around the map and see how MWIF potrays the world *drool*.......

And for anyone who hasn't played CWIF, the control of hexes icons are a godsend when playing the game.....



HardRock -> RE: Beta Testing (3/31/2006 10:13:47 PM)

Will there be an option to clip the counters ;-)

A fingernil clipper icon would suffice ;-)



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Beta Testing (3/31/2006 10:46:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardRock

Will there be an option to clip the counters ;-)

A fingernil clipper icon would suffice ;-)


Well, I could add Coke stains to some of them. And perhaps that 1-4 you keep rebuilding could be faded and somewhat dog-eared [see mollifoged below].

My family uses the word 'mollifoged'. It is best explained through example. When my brother was 4 years old he was waiting in line to go on the merry-go-round. My mother had given him his ticket to hold as he waited. Picture a 4 year old with cotton candy in one hand a small paper ticket in the other; wait 20 minutes; examine ticket. By the time he got to the ticket taker, my brother's ticket was all mollifoged.



fuzzy_bunnyy -> RE: Beta Testing (3/31/2006 11:31:31 PM)

gosh, that doesnt look like a very happy russian position. Is it just me or are like 4-5 corps about to die? and why is that 4-2 ART alone? also, why are the russian airfields garrisoned? in the abscence of PARA, Id imagine those units are needed at the front.



Greyshaft -> RE: Beta Testing (4/2/2006 2:51:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fuzzy_bunnyy

gosh, that doesnt look like a very happy russian position. Is it just me or are like 4-5 corps about to die? and why is that 4-2 ART alone? also, why are the russian airfields garrisoned? in the abscence of PARA, Id imagine those units are needed at the front.

The gentle art of beta-testing often involves setting up unrealistic positions in order to test 'what-if' scenarios. So a weak russian unit might be left out by itself to test the overrun rules or a port full of ships could be left ungarrisoned by land units to test the forced rebasing rules for ships etc.

Beta-testing rarely involves playing to win... unless you are testing the rules for Russian Surrender [:D]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Beta Testing (4/5/2006 8:16:50 PM)

The following was provided by beta tester Fred Zimmerman.
[Screen shots from the beta testers are posted by me to avoid legal conflicts with the non-disclosure agreement they signed.]
============================================================================================
The Soviets are on the verge of knocking Rumania out of the war, but the Germans are on their way to Kiev. Which side do you expect to win?



[image]local://upfiles/10463/5612187988AE4E63AD3FFF96327C267E.jpg[/image]



tigercub -> RE: Beta Testing (4/6/2006 5:34:32 AM)

bugger kiev save Rumania, cut of the russians!take Odessa...and capture them.my plan[:'(]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Beta Testing (4/6/2006 7:09:15 AM)

A second screen shot from Fred.
==============

Panzers have reached the Black Sea, will the Soviet armor be able to fight its way out? This is on a 1920 x 1200 screen.



[image]local://upfiles/10463/06AB7673B8334E55925BE5CD127766A9.jpg[/image]



Matt242 -> RE: Beta Testing (4/6/2006 2:01:25 PM)

Wow!

The more i see, the hotter i get *sigh*.

What recently came to my mind:
Does a single player play all of the Axis/Allies or will it be possible to play a single MP as well?

If so, could 2 or 3 players play on the same side (via internet for example)?



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Beta Testing (4/6/2006 9:05:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matt242
Wow!

The more i see, the hotter i get *sigh*.

What recently came to my mind:
Does a single player play all of the Axis/Allies or will it be possible to play a single MP as well?

If so, could 2 or 3 players play on the same side (via internet for example)?


My design calls for a team leader for each side. That could be the only player for the side, or there could be other team members. In addition to players controlling major powers, I envision each major power being able to delegate some responsibilities to other team members.

For example, the German player could appoint an Air Marshal to control all the air units. There are interpersonal mechanisms that have to be worked out here by the players. From the program's point of view, each major power may assign units to other players. The person playing the major power can take back control of any or all of his units at any time.

My goal here was to permit, for example, the USA to be split into an Atlantic and Pacific theaters and played by two players. Or the Japanese to separate the naval units from the land units - as to who moves them. I hope that small assignments can be made to new players to get them involved in a game gradually, rather than throwing them into a meat grinder as their initiation to WIF. Watchers are another category.

I have more to say on this but they are turning off my water for 3 hours this morning and everything wet has to to be attended to in the next 45 minutes.



macgregor -> RE: Beta Testing (4/6/2006 9:32:53 PM)

I'm another one that will be looking foward to team play via the internet. There should be some format where team players can exchange ideas. Would it be possible to say, capture an image of a section of map and perhaps ,draw out plans to send to an ally? Or would I have to do that using my own screen grab and image editor? It would be nice if the game could facilitate this though I realize there are limits to what you can do.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Beta Testing (4/6/2006 9:41:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: macgregor

I'm another one that will be looking foward to team play via the internet. There should be some format where team players can exchange ideas. Would it be possible to say, capture an image of a section of map and perhaps ,draw out plans to send to an ally? Or would I have to do that using my own screen grab and image editor? It would be nice if the game could facilitate this though I realize there are limits to what you can do.


Could you work out a few examples? Perhaps 3: for land, air, and naval units? The clearer a picture I have of what you envision, the better the chance that I can enable it. No blind promises though.



macgregor -> RE: Beta Testing (4/7/2006 12:32:33 AM)

Playing as a team I often like to submit ideas to my teammate(s). Likewise, I also like to know what my allies would do in certain situations. Since the primary mode of communications between allies will most likely be email(well, for this anyway), perhaps some way of switching the game into a freeze mode while allowing one to say, highlight hexes or insert captions and then email the image to your ally. There are other ways this could be accomplished using the available screengrabs and any image edit programs. However, the game could facilitate this considerably if it were feasible. I'm not sure it's worth your time at this point. It was just a thought.



TheDishwasher -> RE: Beta Testing (4/7/2006 1:32:09 AM)

How is net play handled? I assume it's as Chris envisaged with everybody online at the same time. If so, then something similar to the virtual whiteboard programs would be handy. A virtual whiteboard that only your team mates could see and that you could pin a section of the map to then draw on with virtual crayons. There are many examples of whiteboard programs floating about the net - I may even have one hanging about that I wrote several years ago.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Beta Testing (4/7/2006 1:56:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheDishwasher
How is net play handled? I assume it's as Chris envisaged with everybody online at the same time. If so, then something similar to the virtual whiteboard programs would be handy. A virtual whiteboard that only your team mates could see and that you could pin a section of the map to then draw on with virtual crayons. There are many examples of whiteboard programs floating about the net - I may even have one hanging about that I wrote several years ago.


Yes, everyone online at the same time.

I am replacing CWIF's DirectX calls with Indy10 calls. To be more precise, Dan Hatchen is working on the Internet calls using Indy10 and I am revising the existing code to enable the conversion. In preparation for that, I spent yesterday and today pulling 7000 lines of code related to Internet messaging out the Main Pascal units and gave it its own file. I have managed to achieve a clean compile so far, but am debugging the messsage processing system I damaged in the conversion [as expected]. At least the Main unit is now down to 11,500 - still a little too large for my taste but half the size I inherited.

As to whiteboards, I am undecided. Whenever you create a capability for performing a rather general utility function, people are always disappointed. They each have had different experiences and therefore have different expectations. Sating them all is hopeless, especially for such a small market as there is for wargames, and given that it is an auxiliary feature to the primary purpose of the program.

Still, something more than banal text messaging seems needed. As I said, I'm undecided. Perhaps a program or set of programs could be identified and recommended to players. Ideally, they would be dirt cheap, or freeware.



JagdFlanker -> RE: Beta Testing (4/7/2006 3:51:48 AM)

if yer playing live you might just be better off getting a voice program like ventrillo or skype and discuss the game while playing it. all players can actually be on at the same time, but when private discussion is needed you can kick the opposing side out for a minute and/or go on a private channel. mic's are dirt cheap, and it's a lot easier to talk about it than to write back and forth about it!

another handy option might be a way to make a jpg of the entire map with a keypress. then if you want you can go in an editor, draw some arrows and so forth then email it to your teammates. plus it'd be nice to have to take snapshots of your game to keep and/or to post with AAR's!



tigercub -> RE: Beta Testing (4/7/2006 4:10:24 AM)

Soviet armor dont think so,have the germans got supply to own panzer? attack targets of opportunity!



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