RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (Full Version)

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wworld7 -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/1/2006 4:28:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

I'm hooked and I'm a critic![;)]



Be still my heart...

Flipper



ny59giants -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/1/2006 5:25:53 AM)

quote:

I'm hooked and I'm a critic!


_____________________________

I shouldn't tell you this, Mandrake, but you're a good officer. It looks like we're in a shooting war.





I think Ron should change his "Silent Service" fan boy to a BB fan boy.[sm=sterb032.gif]



LargeSlowTarget -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/1/2006 5:26:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I have an idea. Just for giggles someone post the "Perfect" game they own and then everyone else post all the bugs and flaws from their experiance with that title.


Great idea. Let's start with 'Minesweeper'...



Odox -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/2/2006 11:23:06 PM)

Gentlemen:

Once again I want to thank you for your most welcome responses.

Three other people that have been of inestimable help to me in exploring WiTP have been esteban, PzB and el cid again. I have no idea how their names escaped me when I first posted.

Warmly,

Odox



Apollo11 -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/3/2006 4:31:12 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I have an idea. Just for giggles someone post the "Perfect" game they own and then everyone else post all the bugs and flaws from their experiance with that title.


MS Solitaire and MS Minesweeper (that both come with OS)? [:D]


Leo "Apollo11"



Apollo11 -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/3/2006 4:34:15 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Great idea. Let's start with 'Minesweeper'...


Damn... when I answered Mogami on 1st page of the thread you already overtook me on 2nd... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"




aletoledo -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/3/2006 6:58:06 PM)

Odox, I think there is a couple big points you're missing.
first of all you'll never see a WitPII appear in 6-8 months, not matter how much business sense it would mean, because software isn't created that quickly. considering they haven't really even started it, the soonest you'll see a possible finished 2nd edition would be probably 2 years from now. you're simply not going to find a better pacific ww2 game before that time either, so you'll have to be very patient and hope they actually do make the game at all, otherwise you're never going to play something like WitP in your lifetime.
second, the bugs you've read about are really an overexaggeration by the grognards of this forum. it really is the grumblings of a dieing breed of history buffs that won't accept anything less than a time machine. the game works and once you get used to it, is the best ww2 you'll probably ever play.

quote:

Hi, I have an idea. Just for giggles someone post the "Perfect" game they own and then everyone else post all the bugs and flaws from their experiance with that title.

I submit chess as the perfect game, but I'm not sure if I saw the last patch. :)



dtravel -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/3/2006 7:03:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aletoledo
I submit chess as the perfect game, but I'm not sure if I saw the last patch. :)


I don't think its due out for about another hundred years. [;)]



Mynok -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/3/2006 8:11:09 PM)


Chess was orphaned by the vendor a long time ago. Sad how companies just don't support their games! [:D]



Nikademus -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/3/2006 8:27:05 PM)

I'm still holding the candle for Pacific Tide.....

[:'(]



Mynok -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/3/2006 8:57:16 PM)

[:D]



dereck -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/4/2006 12:40:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I have an idea. Just for giggles someone post the "Perfect" game they own and then everyone else post all the bugs and flaws from their experiance with that title.


Sierra's Baseball Pro'94 and also their Football Pro '95 thru '98.



Odox -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/4/2006 4:59:34 AM)

Greetings all:

I think perhaps my response to the idea of a 'perfect game' was addressed in a previous post.

Thank you aletoledo for your honesty. I can appreciate both WiTP and the loyalty of it's fans.

One thing has come as something of a surprise, and that is Nik's Mod.

I typically ignore much of the work of the modders on games of this type, but it seems to have been a mistake to do so in the case of Nik's Mod.

Andrew Brown's map is also superior to stock IMHO. I personally abhor the 'cartoonishness' of so many of these games. It seems the developers could have followed the original theme of pix art a bit further and toned down the cartoony primary-color approach.

Nikademus has done an excellent job in addressing so many of the game's oddities, that it has gone so far as to have me reevaluating my decision to return WiTP. I will perhaps await only 1.8 now.

For Nikademus: wonderful work on your Mod. Forgive me for having overlooked it up to now. Have you experienced any problems with the mod interfacing with stock WiTP? Admittedly this question might be for Andrew Brown, but any problems with his map also? To be able to use the two together would be a real plus in my book.

Once again, thank you all for your responses.

Respectfully,

Odox



pasternakski -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/4/2006 5:39:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aletoledo
...the bugs you've read about are really an overexaggeration by the grognards of this forum. it really is the grumblings of a dieing breed of history buffs ...



[image]local://upfiles/6977/2F475E0DD7F34BDF85FC93B7600E1643.jpg[/image]



Nikademus -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/4/2006 9:07:43 AM)

quote:

For Nikademus: wonderful work on your Mod. Forgive me for having overlooked it up to now. Have you experienced any problems with the mod interfacing with stock WiTP? Admittedly this question might be for Andrew Brown, but any problems with his map also? To be able to use the two together would be a real plus in my book.


Nikmod is it's own scenario so there is no interference with other scenarios such as stock Grand campaign. There are two versions currently. Scn 40 - Grand campaign version of Nikmod (12/7/41 start thru end of war) and Scn 45 which is a scn 13 conversion (5/42 start through end of war)




Speedysteve -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/4/2006 11:56:07 AM)

Hi Odox,

To get a general feel for a Nik Mod game have a look at some of the AAR's. There are at least 3/4 going on in there including one of mine against Nik (earlier mod 4.0 version).

Regards,

Steven



LargeSlowTarget -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/4/2006 12:15:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Great idea. Let's start with 'Minesweeper'...


Damn... when I answered Mogami on 1st page of the thread you already overtook me on 2nd... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"




Great minds think alike - but apparently your mind is running even slower than a large slow target [;)]



Odox -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/4/2006 9:03:59 PM)

Speedy:

Yes by all means your AAR has been a treat! And it seems to be playing nicely also.

Nik's Mod has me re-evaluating WiTP.

Thanks for all the great responses!

Odox



ny59giants -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/4/2006 9:33:59 PM)

Odox,
Check out the Iron Storm AAR if you want a slightly different "Alternative" history pre-Pearl Harbor. It might be of interest to you.



mogami -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/5/2006 4:41:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I have an idea. Just for giggles someone post the "Perfect" game they own and then everyone else post all the bugs and flaws from their experiance with that title.


Sierra's Baseball Pro'94 and also their Football Pro '95 thru '98.


Hi, Well I had trouble just getting the football game to load so I'll address the baseball game.
I still have Sierra baseball on my computer. But
1. With runners on 1st and 3rd a double steal always works. If the throw goes to 2nd the runner on 3rd will always score and the runner going to 2nd is always safe. This is a serious error. (can't say it is a bug or not.)(I 've had teams steal over 300 bases in a single season since runners on 1st and 3rd always results in at least 1 steal)
2. Pick off attempts always result in error. (not AI pickoffs just human)
3. The game does not always properly award a save.
4. If you don't like the result of an AB you can hit exit before the play resets for next pitch and do it over again[X(]
5. The AI pinch hits at wierd times (or refuses to pinch hit when it makes sense. The AI also bunts in wierd manners. (runner on first 2 outs slow batter at the plate and it bunts)
6. The AI cannot maintain it's pitching staff. The bullpens for computer controlled teams are always wore out from over use. Humans of course use their AAA/low rosters to keep players rested and healthy. Overall the computer controlled teams are wore out by mid season. (A bad year for me is winning just 100 games. I won 140 more then 1 season)(I won 110 after building a team totally from low ranked players)



moses -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/5/2006 5:43:51 PM)

I've played almost every serious wargame from the 80's and 90's. (in the last decade it becomes impossible to play them all). The bad ones I lose faith in immediatly. The good ones I play and play until finally I discover enough flaws that I lose the immersive effect and move on to something else.

I've been playing WITP heavily since it came out. I'm probably getting close to the point of moving on now after my current PBEM's end. The fact that I've probably spent 1000 hours before this point does say something.

The older games were more abstract and therefore harder to poke holes in. With more low level detail it becomes easier to find fault in games like WITP. Once you find a flaw you can test and test and prove that in fact the flaw exists. (Surprise???)

People should just get realistic. There is no perfect simulation or game. Matrix has been extrodinarily responsive in trying to address issues and make people happy. Its arguably the best stratigic wargame ever made. It's held this title, I believe, since before the first patch and its improved since then.

Anyone who likes stategic level wargames, is interested in the Pacific theater, and has a few hundred hours to spare should own it.



dereck -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/6/2006 12:57:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

quote:

ORIGINAL: dereck


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I have an idea. Just for giggles someone post the "Perfect" game they own and then everyone else post all the bugs and flaws from their experiance with that title.


Sierra's Baseball Pro'94 and also their Football Pro '95 thru '98.


Hi, Well I had trouble just getting the football game to load so I'll address the baseball game.
I still have Sierra baseball on my computer. But
1. With runners on 1st and 3rd a double steal always works. If the throw goes to 2nd the runner on 3rd will always score and the runner going to 2nd is always safe. This is a serious error. (can't say it is a bug or not.)(I 've had teams steal over 300 bases in a single season since runners on 1st and 3rd always results in at least 1 steal)
2. Pick off attempts always result in error. (not AI pickoffs just human)
3. The game does not always properly award a save.
4. If you don't like the result of an AB you can hit exit before the play resets for next pitch and do it over again[X(]
5. The AI pinch hits at wierd times (or refuses to pinch hit when it makes sense. The AI also bunts in wierd manners. (runner on first 2 outs slow batter at the plate and it bunts)
6. The AI cannot maintain it's pitching staff. The bullpens for computer controlled teams are always wore out from over use. Humans of course use their AAA/low rosters to keep players rested and healthy. Overall the computer controlled teams are wore out by mid season. (A bad year for me is winning just 100 games. I won 140 more then 1 season)(I won 110 after building a team totally from low ranked players)



Maybe but it wasn't released with a miniscule fraction of the bugs which WITP has been. I just don't have the time to deal with them anymore which is a shame because this game (WITP) had so much potential but, in my opinion, with so many bugs, with it's being so damned biased towards the Japanese, it just isn't worth spending my time on it. I've played Baseball Pro since 1994 and can see myself playing it for 12 more. I can't see myself doing that with WITP - especially for as much work as a player has to put into it to play.

Sorry if this observation ruffled the feathers of those who think WITP is the greatest thing since sliced bread but I just expect to buy a game that works by already having been tested. I didn't pay money for this game to be a beta tester. I paid for a game I expected to be bug-free. And YES software can and IS written bug free, just not in the game industry anymore because the people who buy them - all of you - don't care anymore about quality. All that WITP has been releasing has been bells and whistles but not once have they addressed real issues and root causes of the problems and they never will as long as people put up with it.



mogami -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/6/2006 6:30:49 AM)

Hi, This reveals that players will tolerate bugs in certain games. The stolen base bug and pick off bug seriously degrade the statistical integrity of FPS baseballPro (but I still play it as well) But if we played it H2H I would require a house rule "No double steals with men on 1st and 3rd"
The failure of the AI to manage it's pitching staff means the human will always win more games in a season then the ratings of his players would allow if all teams were human managed.

Your not a beta tester for Seirra simply because there is no support for that game to be found. The problems that are there will always be there. You either live with them or you don't play that game. My slowest players usally finish a season with more stolen bases then the fastest AI controlled players.


WITP can be played. I've finished quite a few games. I prefer a certain number of house rules to make it more to my liking.
Now I understand there are WITP players who never made a feature request and were stuck dealing with the problems when the game was changed by the request of others.

The point is not that WITP has bugs because every game I've ever bought had a bug or 2 or an issue that seriously impacted play. Some games we live with them and others they drive us crazy. The a2a in WIR makes WITP look bloodless. (It's nothing to have several thousand aircraft shot down in a single turn in WIR) In WIR you can force a massive enemy force to surrender (in fact this is the heart of the combat system, forcing large stacks of enemy troops to surrender each and every turn. Germany has lost the game when it can no longer do this at will)

WITP does not have a Japanese bias. It has an anti Mogami bais because I lose no matter what side I play.



Odox -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/8/2006 8:42:55 AM)

Gentlemen:

I would like to request to the moderator of this forum (Mogami) and to the management to close this particular thread and remove it from the Forum.

It was never my intention to stir up controversy nor to have the thread become a magnet for negativity and attack. I am appalled and ashamed that this has occurred and I regret to have my name associated with it, or be seen by my peers as the instigator of it.

My reasons for beginning it were among the very highest, as I believed out of respect for the game's developers I owed them an explanation as to why I was not at the present inclined to purchase the game. It was a point of honor for me motivated by my esteem for the game's developers and players. I believed I owed them an explanation.

In the clearest possible terms, without rancor or pettiness in the slightest degree, I wish to restate the following:

* * * War in the Pacific is an excellent game, among the best of it's kind.

* * * The scope and detail of the game are without comparison, and many might have believed it couldn't have been done at all.

* * * It would be thoroughly unrealistic of me to assume an effort of this scope and complexity could have been made entirely bug-free on the first attempt.

* * * I am completely in support of those who are working diligently to correct the problems which have thus far been brought to light.

* * * I am looking forward with inexpressible anticipation to the day when these issues will be resolved, and have the utmost confidence that the game's developers have a high commitment to the game's excellence, far beyond mere commercial gain.

With magnaminity I am most humbly,

Odox



mogami -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/8/2006 9:14:38 AM)

Hi, Relax the thread couold have been about the weather and still went where it went.
As long as no one gets personal with another poster I don't worry about topics or opinions. (till religion or politics or such gets brought in)

I don't fully understand your reasons for posting a "why I don't buy your product" thread but then you don't need my approval or undertanding to post as long as the rules are followed and the topic has something to do (slightly) with WITP or the Pacific war in general. It is enough for me that you felt you needed to post. But as to the response, like I said where a thread begins has almost no impact on where it goes so don't worry about that.

I don't like mustard on hamburgers[X(]



rtrapasso -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/8/2006 9:55:15 AM)

quote:


I don't like mustard on hamburgers




Arrghhhh!! Heretic!!![X(][:'(]



Dino -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/8/2006 4:07:10 PM)

Speaking of hamburgers... I don't like hotdog in giftwrap. [:-]



Nomad -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/8/2006 4:21:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:


I don't like mustard on hamburgers




Arrghhhh!! Heretic!!![X(][:'(]


Mustard belongs on Brats, not hamburgers. [:(][:-]

Odox, I really do not see a lot of flaming here, there were some uncomplementry posts on the first page, but all controversial threads have a few of those. I see your post as from one who probably would like the game but is still somewhat unsure.

I have been trying to stay somewhat in the middle. I am not happy with the bugs and they are working to fix those. At the same time there are a number of design elements that I am not happy with, but right now I am waiting for the bugs to be fixed and then maybe we can really see how the game works. A third item I am not completly happy with is that there is a lack of concrete information about how things interact and effect the game and a very huge lack of feedback to the player. I am not sure how much of that will get ironed out, we will just have to wait and see. So, even though there are a number of things I am not happy with, I still have 3 PBEM games going. I will not let the problems keep me from playing( internet problems really bolixed things a few months ago). [:)]



Terminus -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/8/2006 4:41:30 PM)

Echo that... Don't think you've been even slightly singed, Odox. I've seen worse...



06 Maestro -> RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender (4/9/2006 7:09:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, I have an idea. Just for giggles someone post the "Perfect" game they own and then everyone else post all the bugs and flaws from their experiance with that title.



Checkers is near perfect- if a bug shows up, you can spray it with Raid.



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