Reverse (Full Version)

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McGib -> Reverse (7/13/2000 12:33:00 AM)

I've looked in the V2.2 manual and did not see anything mentioned about tanks reversing, So ... Can vehilces back up in WAW? I know SSI was bugged alot about this and they never put this option in. I'm hoping that with all the detail that people are talking about, asking for, and what is already in the game, that this ability will find its way into a future patch.



Larry Holt -> (7/13/2000 12:40:00 AM)

AAAHHH! I was just about to post on this and you got to it first. Great intuition on your part. Its suicide to retreat tanks as they then are vulnerable to rear shots. There is no, "Driver, Tiger to the front, back up NOW!!! BACK BACK BACK!!" in the game. To put in a reverse mode flag in the code for all units would be a big deal so perhaps reverse could be toggled on then automatically toggled off when a new unit is selected. Perhaps to make it easy, if reverse mode is toggled and a unit is hit, the computer can just swap front and back armor values. Also movement points in reverse mode should be very low (2 mph max?) I can hear Michael Woods sighing over gamers who think they can program [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] but I just want to suggest that since this could be a major coding issue, perhaps the same effect can be achieved with some compromise in esthetics (swap armor values instead of a true move back function). ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



Fabio Prado -> (7/13/2000 1:17:00 AM)

Oh, yes! I dream of having this implemented in SPWAW, too...The ability of reverse movement would add just what is still missing in SPWAW... FAP ------------------ Fabio Prado [email]fprado@fprado.com[/email] Webmaster - The ARMOR Site!



Mac_MatrixForum -> (7/13/2000 1:24:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Holt: AAAHHH! I was just about to post on this and you got to it first. Great intuition on your part. Its suicide to retreat tanks as they then are vulnerable to rear shots. There is no, "Driver, Tiger to the front, back up NOW!!! BACK BACK BACK!!" in the game.
If nothing else, the tiger armour debate tells us that we want that front facing the enemy ALL the time. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] It would be nice as a feature for those longer-than-one-hex-retreats.
quote:

To put in a reverse mode flag in the code for all units would be a big deal so perhaps reverse could be toggled on then automatically toggled off when a new unit is selected. Perhaps to make it easy, if reverse mode is toggled and a unit is hit, the computer can just swap front and back armor values. Also movement points in reverse mode should be very low (2 mph max?)
Swapping armour values ain't going to be that much easier. You have to take all those slopes into consideration too. Well it's not worth it, I think. If in reverse mode, just double the movement cost?
quote:

I can hear Michael Woods sighing over gamers who think they can program [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] but I just want to suggest that since this could be a major coding issue, perhaps the same effect can be achieved with some compromise in esthetics (swap armor values instead of a true move back function).
Haha, but they've said and we've seen that they are gamers themselves. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] (Good thing too [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]) I think it would work as a global toggle like the All Formation-mode. When you have it on and move a vehicle, it moves just like it does now (graphics rotated 180 degrees, of course) and if the OP fire code checks for the heading anyway (this I'm guessing) that would be the rotated heading. Perhaps the graphics subroutines use that heading too. How hard can it be to change the movement code to accept reverse mode? Well although programming is my profession and hobby I'm not going to start lecturing MG how to do things because they sure know what they are doing as is VERY evident on the superb work they have done. Thanks a million. I'm sure you consider all these ideas. ------------------ Markku "Mac" Rontu "Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Sheridan in B5



BA Evans -> (7/13/2000 4:02:00 AM)

Each hex is aprox. 50 meters across. Was it common to drive in reverse for very long? I have a feeling that reverse movement could be measured in meters and not hundreds of meters. Can a tank driver even see behind him? I don't remember seeing rear view mirrors on tanks. What speeds can be attained in reverse gear? I believe Tigers had eight (8) forward gears but only one (1) reverse. Would it be more realistic to limit reverse movement to only one (1) or two (2) hexes? I have a feeling that reverse movement is really out of the scope of this game. Remember, the minimum move you can make in this game is 50 meters. That's a pretty fair trip for a tank to make when it can't see behind it and it is only creeping along in reverse gear. BA Evans



Ken Rutsky -> (7/13/2000 5:06:00 AM)

I think the old Squad Leader convention was to have reverse movement cost 4x normal. Ken Rutsky



McGib -> (7/13/2000 5:08:00 AM)

How far can a tank go backwards? It all depends on how great the need to go backwards is! If your in a PzIII and a T-34 is to your front I imagine the driver can go quite far backwards. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Now yes there would be a speed limit because tanks would not go very fast and I think that a hex, maybe two hexes in clear/flat terrain would be reasonable. I'll dont claim to be a programer but I do have a few ideas on how it I would like to see it work. Hold down the shift key and click with the mouse for player movement. For retreats a percentage using crew experience, suppression and wether the shot that caused the retreat hit or not to determine wether the tank goes in reverse or turns and runs. I dont know how hard that would be to do for the programers but I think it sounds fairly reasonable, and if its to difficult ... CHARGE! McGib Ready Aye Ready



ncpanther -> (7/13/2000 6:31:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by McGib: How far can a tank go backwards? It all depends on how great the need to go backwards is! If your in a PzIII and a T-34 is to your front I imagine the driver can go quite far backwards. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] McGib Ready Aye Ready
In a Battle I would assume that the crew would be buttoned. This would mean that the TC would have to guide the driver backwards while looking out of the periscope slots. Now I dont know about yall but I've done this in an APC and trust me its very hard and nerve racking. I just dont think you would go backwards very far. Maybe a few meters at most but I dont think 50m.I dunno I guess the TC could risk getting blown away and pop up out of the hatch(not a smart thing to do in a firefight) and then guide him back. Could go a bit farther that way but in the end if your tank is retreating it wants to get the hell outta there and ya dont go very fast in reverse.:.) ------------------ NC Airborne Sappers Lead the way!! SAPPERS ATTACK!!!!



Larry Holt -> (7/13/2000 8:40:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by ncpanther: ... Now I dont know about yall but I've done this in an APC and trust me its very hard and nerve racking. I just dont think you would go backwards very far. Maybe a few meters at most but I dont think 50m...)
Nerve racking yes but less so than being killed through your rear arc. Hexes are 50m but we don't know where in the hex a tank is. Sometimes it will be in the center and other times at an edge. The average distance to back then is more like 25m. In an exercise one time an M1 in my battalion stuck its nose through a tree line and was confronted with several Leopards. It quickly backed up and promptly backed into its wingman, hitting it on the gun tube. The gun trunnions were broken and it was out of action requiring to be sent off somewhere for a rebuild. So, yes its dangerous and perhaps there should be an increased chance of damage (as can happen in V3.0) an perhaps the mobility in reverse needs to be very low but turning around and presenting your rear armor is unrealistic. Reverse is a realistic action that is needed IMHO. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



Mac_MatrixForum -> (7/13/2000 9:50:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by McGib: How far can a tank go backwards? It all depends on how great the need to go backwards is! If your in a PzIII and a T-34 is to your front I imagine the driver can go quite far backwards. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]
The problem is this: SP series have totally clear terrain in many places. In real life you could reverse a couple meters or more and be behind an obstacle because there is generally much more variation in the terrain that is not represented by the 50m hexes that well. If the terrain really is that clear and level around you then you can safely back up quite a bit. The limiting factor is the x4 (or whatever cost is deemed good) multiplier in the movement cost. If you really have an enemy tank ahead and you have to retreat, you wouldn't be so crazy that you turn your back on it. Not even if it's a bit risky for you. It think that in tight situations, backing up a couple hexes is totally reasonable. ------------------ Markku "Mac" Rontu "Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Sheridan in B5



Beetlecat -> (7/13/2000 10:30:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Mac: ... (snip) The limiting factor is the x4 (or whatever cost is deemed good) multiplier in the movement cost. If you really have an enemy tank ahead and you have to retreat, you wouldn't be so crazy that you turn your back on it. Not even if it's a bit risky for you. It think that in tight situations, backing up a couple hexes is totally reasonable.
(i'm just quoting you, mac, since you were last.. I think the largest criticism with 'backing up' has been thus far that for the scope of multiple hexes, or even one hex for that matter, it's a pretty far distance to be 'reversing' the whole time. What I would assume, and this could even be worked into traversing type movements (from the enemy's view) in that extra care is taken so that throughout the whole movement, as much of the front armor is presented to the enemy, or that the tank is finding every little nook and cranny to hide in along the way. -- And that the end result of the move is that the front armor is facing the enemy (rather than having to spin the tank after moving) Needless to say, this would eat up movement points like crazy, and so it should. Perhaps this could cut down significantly on the opponents op/fire? That would have the effect on getting less ass shots, but the enemy should still be able to fire... I could understand if it's outside the scope of the current game engine, but something to consider for later? -Beetlecat



JJU57 -> (7/13/2000 10:48:00 PM)

I have seen way to amny shots of the turret pointing back but the tank moving in the direction of the front hull to ignore. Backing up id fine for a few yards, to get back into cover, but not for running away. To proper way to retreat is to fire smoke, point the turret toward the enemy to either suppress fire his way or just to get the fron turret armor his direction, and then to go as fast as possible. The game models this pretty well.



McGib -> (7/14/2000 12:10:00 AM)

One point Larry and I have tried to make is reversing and maybe/probably damaging your tank as opposed to turning around and running away and taking a round in the butt. Damaging your tank backing up is much preferable to taking incoming fire through that weak rear armor. Also I've seen many comments about it not being realistic for a tank to reverse 50m. Well my counter to this is how far do you think a infantry squad can move under fire? The game says 50m. With a hex based map your movement has to be based on the size of the hex. I dont think its unreasonable for a tank in SPWAW to reverse a hex, maybe two. I never said anything about covering the map with the gear shift in R. McGib Ready Aye Ready



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