OT: HMAS Sydney (Full Version)

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zuikaku -> OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 12:32:20 PM)

Hi!
Sorry for the off topic, but does anyone knows if the wreck of the HMAS Sydney have been explored? Are there any new details about her mysterios destruction?



Terminus -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 12:44:40 PM)

Not much mystery to it; the two ships killed each other...



Terminus -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 12:49:48 PM)

As for either wreck (the Sydney or the Kormoran) they've never been found.



zuikaku -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 12:53:19 PM)

well, the mistery is there are no survivors. They couldn't all die! The fire from Kormoran couldn't kill everybody onboard...



Terminus -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 12:55:12 PM)

Why not? Eyewitnesses on the Kormoran reported loud explosions consistent with magazines going off. Besides, they were far from land, so any initial survivors could easily have perished in the water. There were three survivors off the Hood...



zuikaku -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 1:02:43 PM)

Haven't read anything about magazine explosions? The Kormoran crew tracked Sydney as she drifted away, and reported it burning in the distance until after midnight...



Terminus -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 1:07:17 PM)

The Kormoran was drifting as well. Basically, the two ships drifted apart, and the Kormoran lost contact with the Sydney in mist. Flashes and sounds consistent with large explosions were then seen and heard on the Kormoran. I say it's perfectly possible; the Kormoran has 6*6-inch guns to the Sydney's 8, and had surprise on their side, so they got first blows.



zuikaku -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 1:38:28 PM)

I'm a great fan of Kormoran as well as other raiders, but... something is just wrong in this story. Yes, both the sydney and kormoran vere badly damaged and were drifting out of control. Yet, crew of Kormoran managed to abandon the ship and most of them survived. Sydney had better armor protection and (I assume) damage control. Magaziones were probably flooded by that time (3 hours or more after the battle). If the situation aboard was so hopeless, they would abandon the ship well before the explosions (just like the Kormoran crew did). And, that's why this is weird. What do you think about theory that Japanese I-boat finished off Sydney?



Terminus -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 1:57:49 PM)

I think it's pretty standard conspiracy theory claptrap, concocted by people who simply couldn't believe the confluence of circumstances: that an experienced RAN captain brought his ship basically alongside an uidentified ship in wartime, that an armed (albeit heavily armed) merchant ship finished off a light cruiser, and that there were no survivors.

Another aspect is that the Kormoran blew away the Sydney's bridge almost immediately, presumably killing the entire command echelon of the ship. Also, if the fires were not under control, or only seemingly under control, they still could have reached the Sydney's magazines.

And finally, even if there were survivors from the Sydney, nobody on their side knew where they were. They could very easily have died of exposure. All that's ever been found was a Carley raft. Look at the Indianapolis. Hundreds of survivors perished in the water, lots of them by shark attack, even though a very large percentage of the ship's company escaped her when she sank.



JeffroK -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 2:05:03 PM)

The OZ Govt has committed some funds to the search for Sydney, but the possible area is pretty huge so we'll wait to see.

I think a lot of the conspiracy theories have been debunked, but I still think something odd happened!



zuikaku -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 2:15:27 PM)

Well, something was very wrong with the whole procedure of closing two of the ships too much!
And BTW wasn't Sydney CA, not CL? CLs usually didn't carried 8" guns.



JeffroK -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 2:18:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuikaku

Well, something was very wrong with the whole procedure of closing two of the ships too much!
And BTW wasn't Sydney CA, not CL? CLs usually didn't carried 8" guns.


Yes,

but just off the Australian Coast wasnt the Denmark straits so thinngs may have been off high alert. Plus the Chatham Cl was built for Europe and got pretty hot, of NW OZ could be 100+ at that time of year so maybe she wasnt closed down fully.

The Sydney only had 6" guns



zuikaku -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 2:29:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Yes,

but just off the Australian Coast wasnt the Denmark straits so thinngs may have been off high alert. Plus the Chatham Cl was built for Europe and got pretty hot, of NW OZ could be 100+ at that time of year so maybe she wasnt closed down fully.

The Sydney only had 6" guns




or maybe they were just a bit overconfident after successfull mediteranean campaign? But it seems that gun turrets were not manned at all! I cannot understand that. and that don't explain one thing... why most of the Kormoran's crew survived? Both ships sunked in approx same area in same time. But one crew survived and the other just perished? How could 60 years pass without any serious investigation?



Terminus -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 2:36:53 PM)

The Sydney was a modified Leander class light cruiser with 4*2 6-inch guns. There have been more than a few investigations, but nothing has ever been proven to people's satisfaction. Nobody seems to want to believe the only witnesses, those naughty Germans.



Terminus -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 2:39:45 PM)

http://warships.web4u.cz/lode.php?language=E&stat=AUS&typ=CL&trida=Leander+modif.



zuikaku -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 2:42:19 PM)

I think nothing wouldn't be odd in the story if Sydney exploded instantly after beeing fired upon. I believe the crew of the Kormoran, but just have this feeling that something is wrong with this event.
BTW, I'm not an Aussie [:)] Maybe their fan, but not an Aussie (but on the other hand I'm also fan of the Kriegsmarine and IJN)... So, I consider myself objective regarding this event



zuikaku -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 2:45:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

http://warships.web4u.cz/lode.php?language=E&stat=AUS&typ=CL&trida=Leander+modif.



152mm is 6" not the 8", but this has no impact on her fate...



Terminus -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 2:47:41 PM)

There is such a thing as a fire that you think you've put out, but haven't. On a warship full of ammunition and fuel, that's many times more dangerous than on land. Plus, with (presumably) most of the senior officers dead on the bridge...

The Kormoran's crew estimated that they inflicted around 1,000 hits on the Sidney with their primary and secondary batteries, as well as their anti-aircraft guns, plus a torpedo hit for good measure. The Sydney got in four hits on the Kormoran in return, all of them 6-inch.



Monter_Trismegistos -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 2:49:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
light cruiser with 4*2 8-inch guns


Could you repeat that??? :)



Terminus -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 2:50:04 PM)

Yes, as I said 4*2 6-inch guns...

Typo...[;)]



zuikaku -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 2:56:45 PM)

Well, I've never been on the combat ship, so I dont know[;)] And since, i don't live by the sea, I don't know much about damage control...



NemRod -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 3:02:15 PM)

A link to a very intersting site about WW2 cruisers.http://www.world-war.co.uk/
One of the "STORIES" is about the loss of HMAS Sydney.



LargeSlowTarget -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 3:06:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
The Kormoran's crew estimated that they inflicted around 1,000 hits on the Sidney with their primary and secondary batteries, as well as their anti-aircraft guns, plus a torpedo hit for good measure.


What secondary batteries?




Terminus -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 3:11:02 PM)

As far as I've been able to find, the Kormoran had 6 6-inchers, a 75mm, two 37mm and 5 20mm guns, plus 6 torpedo tubes.



zuikaku -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 3:14:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NemRod

A link to a very intersting site about WW2 cruisers.http://www.world-war.co.uk/
One of the "STORIES" is about the loss of HMAS Sydney.



thanks a lot. This report explains why nobody survived a bit more (use of AP shells and hundreds of them exploding inside the ship after penetrating armour belt).



trojan58 -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 3:29:12 PM)

You've also got to remember that according to the German survivors the "Sydney's" crew were lining the decks basically sky-larking and taking in the view, at a range of 1000 yards or less the Kormorans 37mm and 20mm secondaries would have cut them down in droves. The forward guns were quickly knocked by a torpedo hit and the bridge wipped out by 6" gun fire. It was not unusuall for ships to sink with no survivors located, how many merchant ships and escorts went down in the Battle of the Atlantic with no one surviving, especially if no-one was immediatelly at hand to rescue them. The Kormoran was in a diiferent situation. They had actually only taken a few hits, however the fires reached the mine deck which was still full and they were unable to ditch them. They abandoned ship in a more controlled manner (life raft and boats launched) with relatively plenty of time to spare before the mines blew. If she had had time to ditch the mines its possible she may have survived.



zuikaku -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 3:34:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: trojan

You've also got to remember that according to the German survivors the "Sydney's" crew were lining the decks basically sky-larking and taking in the view, at a range of 1000 yards or less the Kormorans 37mm and 20mm secondaries would have cut them down in droves. The forward guns were quickly knocked by a torpedo hit and the bridge wipped out by 6" gun fire. It was not unusuall for ships to sink with no survivors located, how many merchant ships and escorts went down in the Battle of the Atlantic with no one surviving, especially if no-one was immediatelly at hand to rescue them. The Kormoran was in a diiferent situation. They had actually only taken a few hits, however the fires reached the mine deck which was still full and they were unable to ditch them. They abandoned ship in a more controlled manner (life raft and boats launched) with relatively plenty of time to spare before the mines blew. If she had had time to ditch the mines its possible she may have survived.



They couldn't ditch mines since they had no power! Mines can not be ditched if ship drifts out of control...



LargeSlowTarget -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 3:42:16 PM)

Well, to split the hairs - 37mm and 20mm are AA, not secondary. The 75mm was 'in the open' as part of the disguise as an Allied MCS, since most Allied freighters carried deck guns. Now and then it was used as 'Anhaltekanone' ('stopping gun'), i.e. for firing warning shots in order to demand a victim to stop. Hardly a secondary battery either.



trojan58 -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 3:54:51 PM)

I think you'll fined a secondary battery is anything not defined as the Primary battery, hence the 37mm and 20mm are secondaries to the main guns 6".




LargeSlowTarget -> RE: OT: HMAS Sydney (4/13/2006 3:58:15 PM)

Matter of perception, let's agree to disagree.



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