AB or standard's map? (Full Version)

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George Patton -> AB or standard's map? (4/16/2006 9:42:58 AM)

I have to choose which map use in the next game against Chuck. In the first game, aborted, we used AB's map, but I found that the march of the troops through the jungle is very long.
And, also the allied submarines are a little too much deadly.
Maybe this last problem will be solved by Nik mode. Don't know, I never used it, this will be the first time.

Anyway, which mode do you suggest it's better and more realistic to use?



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/16/2006 10:20:00 AM)

AB's map is great.[&o]

Be forewarned that the extended map is a submariners dream.
Single lanes that can be packed with subs in deep water hexes.



Saburo Sakai -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/16/2006 12:04:35 PM)

Hi guys. I'm Patton on Saburo's pc.

What is the big difference with the subs between standard and AB's map? And why?
It seems the only big difference between the two maps. Am I right?



saj42 -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/16/2006 12:07:43 PM)

I hope you find the following constructive

The march of troops through jungle is long because of the game code (see manual 8.3 - speeds will be lower than printed due to fatigue as well) - nothing to do with the map.
Allied submarines too deadly - what patch version are you using? Various tweeks have been made to the game routines - again nothing to do with the map.
Nik Mod, amongst other things, primarily deals with A2A bloodfest and UberCAP issues.

I'm a fan of Andrews Standard Map and Nik Mod 5 - I'll never go back to standard map.



JeffroK -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/16/2006 1:04:28 PM)

Second vote for AB's map.

The Vanilla version is so 20th Century!

I dont use the extended version though.



ctangus -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/16/2006 2:21:43 PM)

Hi Pat -

I still vote for AB's map. [:)]

I think you saw the allied subs effective because of the way I used them. After the first two or three weeks I mostly tried to attack with the US S-boats, which have torpedos that work. Also the Dutch & British subs. The larger US subs, which have all the duds, I mostly used for other duties.

BTW, Happy Easter!



Ron Saueracker -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/16/2006 4:37:01 PM)

ABs map with the extension is a must in my mind. Having the Middle East forces the Allied player to actually use British merchant shipping to move supplies and troops instead of just having the AKs/APs sit in harbour or play amphibious silly bugger. It also removes the bogus ability which Japan has in the game of capturing India and removing the British from the game.

Speaking of this, the extended map removes any ability Japan had of gaming the map edges as is possible in the standard map. Besides the Middle East, the crucial additions of the Society Islands (Bora Bora, Tahiti) and Panama gives the Allies historical bases to build up and fall back upon if the Japanese palyer decides to game the first turn and the supply model and play silly bugger by invading all the islands between the US and OZ. Panama ensures that at least a route still exists.

Then of course there are all the corrections that AB has done. All in all, I would not think of using the standard map anymore. Worlds apart.[&o]

As for ASW, AB just changed the map.



George Patton -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/16/2006 5:02:13 PM)

Hi. I'm back after eastern's lunch with my wife's home made lasagne [&o][&o][&o]

Ok, Chuck. You convinced me. I start immediately to plan the new game.
AB CHS Extended Map, Scenario 140 ik 5.02.

Bye
I'll open a new AAR this evening. (I have to find a new name for the game)

Bye
Pat



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/16/2006 7:08:21 PM)

AB map, CHS and subs.

CHS cut all the ASW weapons by 50%.
So if you are using 1.795 be forewarned that the subs will survive a lot of ASW direct hits.

The extended version allows the off map lanes to be packed with submarines.
At least with the non-extended TF's can be directed away from the edge.
The extended has single lanes that are too easy to interdict.

Personal choice though.
Decide what you are looking for.[;)]



Ron Saueracker -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/16/2006 7:20:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Black Mamba 1942

AB map, CHS and subs.

CHS cut all the ASW weapons by 50%.
So if you are using 1.795 be forewarned that the subs will survive a lot of ASW direct hits.

The extended version allows the off map lanes to be packed with submarines.
At least with the non-extended TF's can be directed away from the edge.
The extended has single lanes that are too easy to interdict.

Personal choice though.
Decide what you are looking for.[;)]


I'd love my opponent to stick subs in those rat runs! Just run over and over them until they are dead. No place for the sub to run. Two edged sword in my mind, and the surface guys have chain mail. Been trying to get Bill to come on in and play but so far he has not been cooperative.[;)]



Black Mamba 1942 -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/17/2006 2:14:37 AM)

This is exactly what I've been doing.
6 confirmed sub sinkings in 2 months.

3 by one group of RN North Atlantic veterans.[:D]



SGT Swanson -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/17/2006 1:23:49 PM)

Yes, serious kudos to AB for all his hard work.[&o][&o][&o] The map itself changes a lot and makes for a more historical game setting. Like the rest: if I could, I would delete the standard maps all together.



bradfordkay -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/17/2006 9:55:05 PM)

Sgt Swanson wrpte: "Like the rest: if I could, I would delete the standard maps all together. "

I have. I installed a WITP-CHS version of the game where AB's map and the CHS data/graphics have overwritten all the original game date. I chose to install it this way (rather than using AB's very nice switching utility) because I have no desire to use the original map anymore...



mlees -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/17/2006 10:16:59 PM)

I have questions for anybody who's in the know:

I am playing CHS scenario 155 with AB's extended map, WiTP ver 1.6.

I noticed that the Japanese Air ASW assets seem to have no probs locating my single sub's in deep water (one boat per hex). They don't score many hits yet, but each turn most of the dozen or so boats around the Home Islands are spotted and attacked. Not a lot of hits yet (1 a week or so). This seems higher than I remember. My subs (as Allied player) dont seem to attack much either. But I hope that will go up when they get radar refits.

Is my memory faulty, or has there been some tweak to up the Air ASW search chances?

Will they score more hits as they get more experienced? Will they get less hits when my boats get Air search radar?



Andrew Brown -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/18/2006 1:51:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: George Patton
Ok, Chuck. You convinced me. I start immediately to plan the new game.
AB CHS Extended Map, Scenario 140 ik 5.02.


Just a clarification - there is no version of the Nik Mod scenario for my extended map. There is a version for my standard map - which does not have the Middle East and Panama extensions.

Currently, only CHS and scenarios derived from it are made to use the extended map.

Andrew



SGT Swanson -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/18/2006 3:19:36 AM)

You also need to move your subs around every so often. By keeping them in the same hex will only help their ASW search get better.



George Patton -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/18/2006 9:38:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: George Patton
Ok, Chuck. You convinced me. I start immediately to plan the new game.
AB CHS Extended Map, Scenario 140 ik 5.02.


Just a clarification - there is no version of the Nik Mod scenario for my extended map. There is a version for my standard map - which does not have the Middle East and Panama extensions.

Currently, only CHS and scenarios derived from it are made to use the extended map.

Andrew


But scenario 140 is not the Nik mode for you extended map?



AirGriff -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/18/2006 1:51:02 PM)

What's the difference between CHS and Nik mod? I've read some stuff on the Nik mod. It sounds interesting to play, though it sounds like he's got some things to fix yet.




Andrew Brown -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/18/2006 1:55:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: George Patton
But scenario 140 is not the Nik mode for you extended map?


No, it is for my standard map only. Keep in mind that I have two maps - my "standard" map and my "extended" map. The difference between them is that the "extended" map includes two "off map" regions - Middle East and Panama.

Andrew



Andrew Brown -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/18/2006 2:01:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AirGriff
What's the difference between CHS and Nik mod?


A very short and barely correct answer would be: CHS is mainly intended to provide more accurate OOBs/TO&Es. Nik's mod is mainly about implementing fixes in the scenario data to oversome some of the shortcomings in the game mechanics.

Andrew



George Patton -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/18/2006 2:15:02 PM)

Ok. I didn't check if it was the ext map. I've done it now. I see. As jap player I was not worried about that, but it's better for me now. [;)]



SGT Swanson -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/18/2006 9:22:45 PM)

And now you have joined the converted.[8D]



Hoplosternum -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/19/2006 4:11:00 PM)

I have played more on the Standard Map than ABs. Now while I like ABs map it does play quite differently and this will have an impact on the game, especially depending on peoples play styles.

By reducing the maximum size and especially the starting sizes of many bases this makes defence tougher early on. There are far fewer bases for the IJ to take to secure the Solomons etc and far fewer forward bases that can support any meaningful allied air forces for defence.

Once the allies get their dozens of SeeBees they can rapidly build up anything they still have but early on I think the map can help the Japanese.

I don't want to criticise ABs map though. The addition of Bora Bora etc. are excellent. They certainly give the allies more depth. China and Burma have been significantly slowed which I think are good.

But bare in mind that a general reduction in the number of bases and size of bases will impact how the game plays. Also some things seem to have been designed with an eye on curtailing certain 'abuses' - early allied massed 4E Bomber counter attacks, early conquest of China etc. If you and your opponents play styles don't involve exploiting these you may find the map just helps the Japanese get their perimeter up quicker and easier. By reducing LBAs airbases early you also boost KB even more.




bradfordkay -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/20/2006 8:41:43 AM)

It's time to ask this question:

El Cid's posting seem to indicate that changing the slots used for things in the game can seriously mess up the game. He has shown that by changing the base in the Bataan slot to any other base on Luzon, the USAFFE forces will withdraw to that new destination instead of Bataan.

Andrew, when you created your map, did you just add new base slots at the end of the list, or did you insert them into the lineup and thus change the slot number/location for some of the bases?

I do not claim to understand how the editor works, so this question is being asked in pure curiosity. As you know, I so prefer your map that I cannot bring myself to play the original.



mlees -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/20/2006 9:32:36 AM)

I have a similar question for Andrew. I am playing the CHS/ext AB map. Japanese Amphib TF's have made two landings on Manila hex, and not suffered from the Guns of Corregidor. (I still hold the Bataan hex, although there are IJA units in it.)

Has this GoC feature disappeared?



Andrew Brown -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/20/2006 10:05:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
Andrew, when you created your map, did you just add new base slots at the end of the list, or did you insert them into the lineup and thus change the slot number/location for some of the bases?


Keeping in mind that base changes are scenario changes, not map changes, when modding scenarios I add new bases into unused and available base slots, so the existing bases are unchanged in their positions. However there is an exception:

- For CHS (extended map scenario), I put Aden in the Karachi slot, so that it became one of the default reinforcement points for India, as well as a RN ship withdrawal location. Karachi was moved to another slot, so it doesn't perform those functions.

Andrew



Andrew Brown -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/20/2006 10:10:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

I have a similar question for Andrew. I am playing the CHS/ext AB map. Japanese Amphib TF's have made two landings on Manila hex, and not suffered from the Guns of Corregidor. (I still hold the Bataan hex, although there are IJA units in it.)

Has this GoC feature disappeared?


I have seen comments stating that this feature does not work before, even with the official map. I don't know much about this except that, when I originally drew my map, I ensured that the Bataan and Manila hexes were positioned in exactly the same hexes (i.e. X-Y coordinates) as on the official map. I did this in case the Bataan/Manila CD feature was tied to hex coordinates, which I think has since been confirmed. So with the hexes aligned and the bases in the same slots in the database, the feature should work on my map as well as on the official map.

You will need to ask the WitP developers for a certain answer, though.

Andrew

Edit - this feature COULD be related to LCU location in the database as well, and that is something I am working on for the next CHS release - getting as many LCUs in their "official" database slots as possible.



bradfordkay -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/20/2006 10:18:41 AM)

Andrew, thanks for the prompt and frank answers. I had a feeling that the case was as you have stated. I appreciate the effort you are putting into the new CHS release. Take your time...



mlees -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/20/2006 10:42:08 AM)

Very well. Thanks!



Nikademus -> RE: AB or standard's map? (4/20/2006 6:58:24 PM)

check supply at Bataan.



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