RE: optional rules (Full Version)

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Froonp -> RE: optional rules (8/9/2006 11:21:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Ok. That last Synthetic oil plant is from Politics in Flames and requires it to be placed in Northern Africa (if it is built). I'll work out a specific hex (if the CWIF code hasn't already taken care of that).

This is hex 84,46
This screen shot is direct from the game (except for the counter which is a scan of the original cardboard counter).

[image]local://upfiles/10447/8F78F285CBF74A5D9D6F3FBA6C646C36.jpg[/image]



YohanTM2 -> RE: optional rules (8/10/2006 12:35:38 AM)

I don't think there should be a counter limit on these. It is arbitrary, not like manpower constraints.

Rob



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: optional rules (8/10/2006 2:15:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan
I don't think there should be a counter limit on these. It is arbitrary, not like manpower constraints.

Rob


Ah, but the specter of WIF FE rears up its head and pronounces "You will not change the game!".

P.S. He has been nibbling on my butt about the map changes already.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: optional rules (8/10/2006 3:43:51 AM)

Here is my daily ration of optional rules for you to review.
=============================================================
[17][Surprised ZOCs][RAW 20 s. 2.2]
This optional rule can have a major impact on play balance in the game. It eliminates the ZOC of units who are surprised. This lets a player who declares war and gains the benefit of surprise, to move land units through holes in an enemy line. If the surprised player doesn’t have a contiguous line of units forming his front line, it will be easy for the attacker to put out of supply and/or isolate a lot of the defending units by penetrating to the rear and cutting off their supply.

When this optional rule is used, no surprised unit has a ZOC during the impulse that it is surprised.
=============================================================
[18][Bounce Combat][RAW 22 s. 14.3.3]
This is a very unusual rule because it changes the results of the air-to-air combat table and inserts a completely new element into air-to-air combat. The idea behind the rule is that at times one side may be able to force the other side to engage in one-to-one combat between air units. This rule adds more complexity to the air-to-air combat system and is not available when playing by email (PBEM).

To appreciate what this rule does, it is necessary to understand the basics of the WIF air-to-air combat system. Normally, air-to-air combat is fought by large groups of air units, with each air unit representing hundreds of planes. The combat system forms the combatants into 4 groups, with each side having a sorted list of bombers and fighters. The air-to-air strength of the opposing front fighters, augmented by their supporting fighters, determines the combat odds and the combat results table (CRT) columns for the die rolls. The description just given is somewhat simplified, but for the purposes of this explanation of bounce combat, they are sufficient.

When the optional rule for bounce combat is being used, air-to-air combat proceeds as normal unless one side or the other receives a DC result on the air combat CRT. These are good results for the defender since they let him clear through one of his bombers. The optional rule for bounce combat permits the defender to either take the DC result as normally, or to treat the result as a Bounce Combat. Note that a bounce combat is completely different from a DC result. The only thing they have in common is that both are good for the defender (i.e., the player who received the DC result). The defender gets to choose between 2 good things: DC or Bounce Combat.

If the defender chooses a bounce combat, the normal air-to-air combat sequence is interrupted to immediately fight a bounce combat. To fight a bounce combat, the defender selects any one of his remaining fighters and any one opposing aircraft (fighter or bomber) that remains in the combat. These two aircraft fight one round of air-to-air combat.

Note that the defender gets to select the air units for both sides. However, his opponent has the ability to choose his own unit for participation in the bounce combat if he spends 3 surprise points. For this separate air-to-air combat, the air-to-air values are calculated normally except that there is no benefit derived from any of the other fighters, and the defender (i.e., the player who initiated the bounce combat) gains +1 to the air-to-air rating for his fighter.

The results of the bounce combat are applied as per the "Air Combat Chart", but can only affect the two planes involved. After this combat is resolved, if the bouncing fighter is not aborted or destroyed it is placed in the rear of the line of fighters from which it came. If the bounced plane is a fighter and is either cleared through or not affected, it returns to its prior place in the fighter lineup. If the bounced plane is a bomber and the result is no effect, it returns to its prior place in the bomber lineup. After the bounce combat ends, the Air-to-Air Combat sequence of play resumes from where it had been interrupted.

Note that only the defender’s fighter returns to the end of the line of fighters. The other unit involved in the bounce combat goes back to where it was previously in the air unit lineups.

Here is a detailed example of bounce combat. The German player flies 3 fighters, and 3 bombers to a hex he is about to attack. The USSR player responds with 2 fighters and 3 bombers in ground support. The air-to-air combat value for the Soviet player, who fires first, is -1. The USSR player rolls an 11, a 'DC'. The German player decides not to clear through a bomber, but instead uses his FW 190 (which is the second fighter in line) to bounce one of the USSR player's fighters, which has a value of 7. The FW is a 7 but gets +1 to its air-to-air rating for this combat, so the odds are +1 and -1 for the German and USSR players respectively.

The USSR player rolls another 11 clearing the FW (which has no effect), while the German player rolls a 2, destroying the Soviet fighter. The German fighter now returns to the rear of the German lineup of fighters, and the German player must recalculate his air-to-air strength using his new fighter lineup against the new Soviet air-to-air strength before firing back at the Soviets (step 3 of the air-to-air combat sequence). Following the implementation of the German player's roll, the first round of air-to-air combat is concluded. Each player now decides whether they will abort the combat.

As I said, this adds to the complexity of air-to-air combat.
=============================================================
[19][V Weapons][RAW 23 s. 11.7.1]
This optional rule adds V-weapon units to the game. V-weapons simulate the unmanned rockets that Germany fired on England during the war. In game terms they have a strategic bombing effect, capable of both strategic bombing and carpet bombing. While the earlier V-1 weapons can be intercepted, the later V-2 and V-3 cannot. However, all V-weapons are destroyed upon use, which makes them somewhat unattractive to build.

Only Germany can build V-weapons, which both form a new force pool and are a new class for gearing limit purposes. They may not be accelerated (i.e, built ahead of their normal availability date). Because they are unmanned, their cost is the same whether the optional rule for pilots is being used or not.

V-weapons fly strategic and carpet bombing missions the same way other aircraft do. However, V-2 and V-3 weapons cannot be intercepted. If a V-1 is aborted, it is destroyed instead. Regardless of the bombing mission outcome, all V-weapons are destroyed after they attack their target.

All V-weapons can use rail movement and naval transportation as if they were land units. For capacity considerations, an active naval transport may carry 1 V-weapon. In additon, V-2 weapons can also move like land units. However, V-weapons can't fly a mission in the same impulse in which they have moved.
=============================================================
[20][Atomic Bombs][RAW 23 s. 11.7.1]
This optional rule adds A-bomb units to the game. These function as powerful strategic bombing weapons, but they must be carried to the target hex by a strategic bomber. They can be used on either strategic or carpet bombing missions.

Only the USA can build atomic bombs, which both form a new force pool and are a new class for gearing limit purposes. They may not be accelerated (i.e, built ahead of their normal availability date). Their cost is the same whether the optional rule for pilots is being used or not.

Once an atomic bomb has been built, it is available for placement with any US bomber with 9 or more printed strategic bombardment factors. The assignment of an atomic bomb to a strategic bomber is done at the start of a strategic bombardment mission. Until then they are simply ‘available’.

When carpet bombing, A-bombs have 25 strategic bombardment factors.

When using an atomic bomb for strategic bombardment, the strategic bomber carrying it must first get by any air-to-air combat and/or anti-aircraft fire without being aborted or destroyed. Should that hurdle be overcome, then the A-bomb may be dropped on the target hex. The attacker picks one of the following 3 targets within the hex: (1) factories, (2) ships in the port, or (3) resources. Half (rounded up) of whichever type he picks are destroyed with the losses chosen randomly.

A-bomb strategic bombardment is never modified for terrain, weather or night missions. The A-bomb is destroyed after it attacks its target. If its bomber is destroyed, the A-bomb is destroyed as well. Although you may fly other bombers to a hex being threatened by an A-bomb (to absorb the losses from air-to-air combat and antiaircraft fire), the dropping of an A-bomb precludes a normal strategic bombardment attack in that hex for that impulse.



Froonp -> RE: optional rules (8/10/2006 8:01:14 AM)

quote:

[20][Atomic Bombs][RAW 23 s. 11.7.1]

The description you gives is the old A-Bomb rule.
The latest (Aug04 rules available from ADG website) have it differently :

*********************************
11.7.1 V-weapons and atomic bombs (PiF option 23)
A-bombs
Only the USA can build an atomic bomb. It arrives as a reinforcement like all other units (see 4.2). It is a land unit but without a ZoC and is captured when overrun by an enemy land unit. If playing America in Flames or Patton in Flames there is no counter limit to A-bombs and, subject to research, any major power may build them.
A-bombs have no movement allowance. An A-bomb may only move by rail (see 11.10) and naval transport (see 11.4.5) as if it was an INF division (even if not playing with that option).
Furthermore, any of the owner’s bombers with 9 or more printed strategic bombardment factors may air transport (see 11.12), or launch a port attack with (see 11.2), or strategic bombard with an A-bomb in the appropriate step of each impulse.
During port attack or strategic bombardment, if the bomber survives any air-to-air combat and/or anti-aircraft fire without being aborted or destroyed, the A-bomb may be dropped on the target.
An A-bomb attacks with 25 factors instead of the bombers own factors. It may be included with other bombers attacking the target. A-bomb factors are modified for terrain, weather or night missions like all other bombers.
The A-bomb is destroyed after it attacks its target. If its bomber is destroyed, the A-bomb is destroyed as well.

Plus

11.8 Carpet bombing (option 32)
The carpet bombing
PiF option 23: You may carpet bomb with atomic bombs and V-weapons. When carpet bombing, A-bombs have 25 strategic bombardment factors.
*********************************



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: optional rules (8/10/2006 8:21:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

[20][Atomic Bombs][RAW 23 s. 11.7.1]

The description you gives is the old A-Bomb rule.
The latest (Aug04 rules available from ADG website) have it differently :

*********************************
11.7.1 V-weapons and atomic bombs (PiF option 23)
A-bombs
Only the USA can build an atomic bomb. It arrives as a reinforcement like all other units (see 4.2). It is a land unit but without a ZoC and is captured when overrun by an enemy land unit. If playing America in Flames or Patton in Flames there is no counter limit to A-bombs and, subject to research, any major power may build them.
A-bombs have no movement allowance. An A-bomb may only move by rail (see 11.10) and naval transport (see 11.4.5) as if it was an INF division (even if not playing with that option).
Furthermore, any of the owner’s bombers with 9 or more printed strategic bombardment factors may air transport (see 11.12), or launch a port attack with (see 11.2), or strategic bombard with an A-bomb in the appropriate step of each impulse.
During port attack or strategic bombardment, if the bomber survives any air-to-air combat and/or anti-aircraft fire without being aborted or destroyed, the A-bomb may be dropped on the target.
An A-bomb attacks with 25 factors instead of the bombers own factors. It may be included with other bombers attacking the target. A-bomb factors are modified for terrain, weather or night missions like all other bombers.
The A-bomb is destroyed after it attacks its target. If its bomber is destroyed, the A-bomb is destroyed as well.

Plus

11.8 Carpet bombing (option 32)
The carpet bombing
PiF option 23: You may carpet bomb with atomic bombs and V-weapons. When carpet bombing, A-bombs have 25 strategic bombardment factors.
*********************************


Ok. I won't include the stuff about Patton in Flames and America in Flames in the description.

It seems the A-bomb is now just 25 strategic bombing points (or air to sea factors if doing a port attack). Other than the transportation issue, it's like normal bombing factors.



Neilster -> RE: V weapons (8/10/2006 12:49:41 PM)

quote:

V-weapons simulate the unmanned rockets that Germany fired on England during the war.


As the V-1 was a pulse-jet powered cruise missile and the V-3 was a huge, buried, multi-stage cannon, perhaps the above could be more appropriately written as...

"V-weapons simulate the advanced weapons developed by Germany in retaliation to Allied strategic bombing which were aimed at cities in England and the Low Countries. The V-1 was a small pulse-jet powered robotic aeroplane, the V-2 was a liquid-fueled rocket and the V-3 was a large, buried cannon which was aimed at London and fired arrow-shaped shells that were progressively accelerated by many rocket charges firing in sequence. All had explosive warheads."

BTW, it doesn't seem to make sense that the V-3 is destroyed after use or that it can be rail or naval transported. The two smaller ones that were built at Lampaden (near Trier) fired a couple of hundered missiles for 2 months and even these were not transportable whatsoever.

Cheers, Neilster




mlees -> RE: V weapons (8/10/2006 5:44:40 PM)

As to my last post here (#28), please ignore. I made it without the benefit of caffeine...

In explanation: It wasn't synth plants I remember being no counter mix limit too, but new factory construction. But my foggy memory suffered form some obscure form of dyslexia.

There is indeed a counter mix limitation in CWiF to synth plants.

Please do not waste time researching this, Steve, and please accept my "Doh! as an apology.

Neilster:

quote:

V-3 was a large, buried cannon which was aimed at London and fired arrow-shaped shells that were progressively accelerated by many rocket charges firing in sequence. All had explosive warheads.


I googled V-3 rocket and got a mixture of results. The term seems to be used for the cannon, as you mention, but also a rocket. I think the V-3 was also used (incorrectly) by some folks as a reference to the "New York" rocket that was not completed before the end of the war. (IIRC, the counter bears a model name of A-1 for that rocket, but it is considered, and falls under the terms of, the V-weapon rules.)



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: V weapons (8/10/2006 8:31:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
quote:

V-weapons simulate the unmanned rockets that Germany fired on England during the war.


As the V-1 was a pulse-jet powered cruise missile and the V-3 was a huge, buried, multi-stage cannon, perhaps the above could be more appropriately written as...

"V-weapons simulate the advanced weapons developed by Germany in retaliation to Allied strategic bombing which were aimed at cities in England and the Low Countries. The V-1 was a small pulse-jet powered robotic aeroplane, the V-2 was a liquid-fueled rocket and the V-3 was a large, buried cannon which was aimed at London and fired arrow-shaped shells that were progressively accelerated by many rocket charges firing in sequence. All had explosive warheads."

BTW, it doesn't seem to make sense that the V-3 is destroyed after use or that it can be rail or naval transported. The two smaller ones that were built at Lampaden (near Trier) fired a couple of hundered missiles for 2 months and even these were not transportable whatsoever.

Cheers, Neilster


This level of detail is most appropriate for describing the counters - as is done for the other air units in the game. For the optional rules writeup I mainly wanted to communicate a reason that there is no need to build a pilot for these "air units". I'll clean the text up a bit at your suggestion, but I do not want to teach the reader about the technology at this point. I just want to give him enough information to decide whether to use the optional rule or not.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: V weapons (8/10/2006 8:35:57 PM)

Oh, and I forgot to add: I am not changing the rules from WIF FE.

The reason the units are destroyed probably has to do with the destruction of the part that is in the air, rather than the part that is on the ground. WIF FE rules treat V-Weapons like the A-Bomb in many regards (they are described together in the same paragraphs). For whatever reason, the designers have lumped them together in the same category.



Froonp -> RE: V weapons (8/10/2006 9:53:13 PM)

quote:

As the V-1 was a pulse-jet powered cruise missile and the V-3 was a huge, buried, multi-stage cannon, perhaps the above could be more appropriately written as...

I think that the V-3 of WiF is the next generation of rockets that followed the V-2, not that bizarre cannon.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: V weapons (8/10/2006 10:35:43 PM)

Here's another group of optional rule descriptions for you all to critique. I have included the rewrite for the A-bombs.

============
=============================================================
[20][Atomic Bombs][RAW 23 s. 11.7.1]
This optional rule adds A-bomb units to the game. These function as powerful bombing weapons, but they must be carried to the target hex by a strategic bomber. They can be used on strategic or carpet bombing missions and also in port attacks.

In general an A-bomb is treated as if it were a land without a ZOC and it is captured when overrun by an enemy land unit. It has no movement allowance and may only move by rail on ground. At sea it can be carried by a naval transport, where the A-bomb counts as if it were an infantry division in terms of capacity (this is true even if the optional rule for divisional units is not being used). Lastly, in the air, bombers with 9 or more printed strategic bombardment factors may: (1) air transport an A-bomb, (2) use it in a port attack, (3) use it for strategic bombing, or (4) use it for carpet bombing.

During the air mission, if the bomber carrying the A-bomb survives air-to-air combat and/or anti-aircraft fire without being aborted or destroyed, the A-bomb may be dropped on the target. If instead its bomber is destroyed, the A-bomb is destroyed as well. An A-bomb attacks with 25 factors instead of the bombers own factors and it may be included with other bombers attacking the target. When strategic bombing or carpet bombing, A-bombs have 25 strategic bombardment factors. When port attacking, they have 25 air-to-sea factors. Like all other bombers, A-bomb factors are modified for terrain, weather, and night missions. The A-bomb is destroyed after it attacks its target regardless of the combat results.

Only the USA can build atomic bombs, which both form a new force pool and are a new class for gearing limit purposes. They may not be accelerated (i.e, built ahead of their normal availability date). Their cost is the same whether the optional rule for pilots is being used or not.
They arrive as a reinforcements like all other units.
=============================================================
[21][Frogmen][RAW 24 s. 22.4.3]
This optional rule adds Frogmen units to the game. WIF uses the word frogmen to describe Italian frogmen and Japanese and Commonwealth mini-sub units. For all purposes these units are the same type: Frogmen. During the war frogmen units functioned as specially trained commando units that at times were very effective and at other times achieved nothing but their own destruction. The rules for these units reflect the highly variable results these unit types achieved historically.

Frogmen's special ability is to attack enemy naval units that are in port. Only one frogman may attack the same port in an impulse, and after an attack the frogmen are always destroyed, regardless of how well the mission went.

You can rail move frogmen and you can also transport frogmen with a naval or air transport. In this regard, they are just like any land unit. In addition, frogmen can make a naval move all by themselves, without involving other units. However, their independent naval move must end in a port, either a friendly or an enemy port. Ending an independent naval move in an enemy port is the way frogmen attack. They have to start in a port and be within their movement range of the enemy port in order to attack. That is, they have to get close.

A frogmen unit can end a move in an enemy port only if it started the move in supply. Frogmen make their naval move just like a surface naval unit. They can be intercepted (but not in the enemy port). If they are intercepted, they count as 1 surface naval unit for naval combat.

When Frogmen attack, it is similar to a normal port attack. First there is a search roll followed by naval combat using a modified naval air combat procedure. Like regular port attacks, surprise points can be used by both sides. The specific sequence is:
(1) both sides roll search dice, with the frogmen treated as if they were in a sea-box section equal to double their attack factors;
(2) if the frogmen's search roll is higher than their sea-box section, they are destroyed before attacking;
(3) the port's owner (i.e., the defending player) can avoid the attack by spending 4 surprise points;
(4) the attack uses the air-to-sea row of the naval combat chart.

However, the port’s owner chooses the first target, the frogmen’s owner the second etcetera. Both players can spend surprise points to alter the column or to select targets as per normal rules for spending surprise points.

Frogmen count as a ship if the port they are in is port attacked. They can be overrun like any other naval unit and can rebase into a friendly port if they survive (just like any other naval unit).

Frogmen, like most other units, are limited to those in the counter mix. They form a new force pool and a new gearing limit class.
=============================================================
[22][SCS Transport][RAW 25 s. 11.4.5]
This optional rule permits a SCS unit to transport a division sized unit, including enabling those divisions to be used for invasions. When this rule is in effect, major powers with a lot of cruisers have their ability to invade greatly enhanced. In particular, the Japanese can send forth a lot of cruisers carrying division sized units and launch invasions all across the Pacific Ocean. Without this rule in effect, invasions require naval transports or amphibious units to be available for launching invasions. The US and British also find this rule very advantageous, and to a lesser degree, the Italians.

This optional rule permits 1 non-motorized infantry class division to be transported on each SCS. The division can embark on, debark, and invade from the SCS, as if the SCS were a naval transport. While transporting a unit, a SCS cannot shore bombard.

German auxiliary cruisers (commonly referred to as surface raiders) can never be used to transport land units, not even when this optional rule concerning SCS Transport is being used.

Marine units and divisions can invade from naval transports, SCS, or amphibious units. But other land units can only invade from amphibious units.
=============================================================
[23][Amphibious Rules][RAW 26 s. 22.4.12]
This optional rule provides more verisimilitude to amphibious invasions. Without this optional rule, almost any infantry unit can invade a land hex from a naval transport. By adding the amphibious rules to the game, more restrictions are placed on conducting invasions from sea.

First, a new unit type is added to the force pool: Amphibious units. These form a new force pool and count against ship gearing limits. Amphibious units are a lot like naval transport units and if you are not playing with this optional rule, they are treated as if they were just more expensive naval transports.

However, when this optional rule is in effect, the differences between naval transports and amphibious units are very important. Only marines and divisions can invade from naval transports (the optional rule for SCS transports lets these types of units invade from SCS too). A full infantry corps can no longer invade from naval transports, but instead must be aboard an amphibious unit in order to invade. So, amphibious units are better than naval transports because they let corps sized infantry units perform naval invasions.

Conversely, amphibious units are poorer at the task of simply transporting units. Specifically, HQ-A, ARM, MECH, aircraft, and artillery units may not be transported on amphibious units. You can think of this as naval transports are best for transporting units while amphibious units are best for naval invasions. But remember that there is some overlap in their capabilities.


Also part of these amphibious rules, naval transports at sea can only embark a land unit from a coastal hex if that hex is a port or contains a HQ. This means an active HQ can always be embarked from a coastal hex. Marine units, infantry class divisions, and units embarking on amphibious units are not subject to this restriction.

Land units can no longer debark from a naval transport at sea into a friendly coastal hex unless the hex is a port or contains a HQ. An active HQ can always debark. Marine units, infantry class divisions and units debarking from amphibious units are not subject to this restriction.

Treat an amphibious unit as a naval transport for all other purposes.

One unusual exception to the above general rules is that even when playing with this option, and although they are armor units, the Commonwealth 79th and US Marine armor divisions can also invade from a naval transport.



mlees -> RE: V weapons (8/10/2006 10:48:41 PM)

Ummm, It's time for me to say something stupid again...

Optional rule 22 (SCS transport) obviously requires the optional Division sized units to actually work. (Or does it?)

IOW: Option "A" requires option "B" to be selected as well.

I realise that for you veterans, that's a "Duhhh!" moment, but new players, not so much.

Ummm, How many Division sized units are there? Infantry I know about... Are engineers? Armor divisions exist, but can they be invading from cruisers if you dont have option 23 selected? What about Artillery?



Froonp -> RE: V weapons (8/10/2006 10:51:26 PM)

quote:

In general an A-bomb is treated as if it were a land without a ZOC

This sentence misses the word "unit", isn't it ?

quote:

At sea it can be carried by a naval transport, where the A-bomb counts as if it were an infantry division in terms of capacity (this is true even if the optional rule for divisional units is not being used).

As you worded it, I seem to understand that the A-Bomb may be transported by TRS only, and that it count as a DIV while being transported, while the intend of the rule is to mean that it can be transported as an INF DIV, that is by any SCS or by a TRS / AMPH.
The original sentence in the rule designate "naval transport" as a mean of transport, which covers TRS but also TRS carrying DIV if the optional is used, but your "naval transport" seems to designate the TRS unit.
You should take the original sentense, it is clearer and shorter.
Or you should remove the word "a" that is before "naval transport".



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: V weapons (8/10/2006 11:03:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

In general an A-bomb is treated as if it were a land without a ZOC

This sentence misses the word "unit", isn't it ?

quote:

At sea it can be carried by a naval transport, where the A-bomb counts as if it were an infantry division in terms of capacity (this is true even if the optional rule for divisional units is not being used).

As you worded it, I seem to understand that the A-Bomb may be transported by TRS only, and that it count as a DIV while being transported, while the intend of the rule is to mean that it can be transported as an INF DIV, that is by any SCS or by a TRS / AMPH.
The original sentence in the rule designate "naval transport" as a mean of transport, which covers TRS but also TRS carrying DIV if the optional is used, but your "naval transport" seems to designate the TRS unit.
You should take the original sentense, it is clearer and shorter.
Or you should remove the word "a" that is before "naval transport".


Yes, I'll add 'unit'.

Actually I am rather carefully removing the acronyms TRS and AMPH from the rules . Though they are shorter, they require the reader to be able to interpret what they mean. I am willing to simply write the whole phrase out each time, especially here where I expect novices to be reading through the optional rules to understand what they do.

So, I'll rephrase this to say an A-bomb can be transported at sea as if it were an infantry division. And simply leave it at that - without explaining about how SCS, TRS, and AMPH have that the ability to transport infantry divisions.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: V weapons (8/10/2006 11:08:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees
Ummm, It's time for me to say something stupid again...

Optional rule 22 (SCS transport) obviously requires the optional Division sized units to actually work. (Or does it?)

IOW: Option "A" requires option "B" to be selected as well.

I realise that for you veterans, that's a "Duhhh!" moment, but new players, not so much.

Ummm, How many Division sized units are there? Infantry I know about... Are engineers? Armor divisions exist, but can they be invading from cruisers if you dont have option 23 selected? What about Artillery?


There is actually an optional rule [0] in MWIF which I skipped over when I started doing these. O.R. 0 is all about division sized units and answers the questions you are asking. It appears first in the list exactly because of the questions that you have. I'll do it next (it is rather long). If after that you still have questions, please let me know.

In a way, you are serving as the representative for all novices who will ever play this game. If it doesn't make sense to you, or takes you a few readings to figure out, wave a flag, send up a flare, sound a foghorn - I'll try to fix it.



Neilster -> RE: V weapons (8/11/2006 11:02:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Oh, and I forgot to add: I am not changing the rules from WIF FE.

The reason the units are destroyed probably has to do with the destruction of the part that is in the air, rather than the part that is on the ground. WIF FE rules treat V-Weapons like the A-Bomb in many regards (they are described together in the same paragraphs). For whatever reason, the designers have lumped them together in the same category.


I understand about not changing the rules. I just mentioned it in case it was a glaring hole that needed patching. I should have written "in retaliation for Allied strategic bombing" too.

How about "V-weapons simulate the advanced, pilotless weapons with explosive warheads that were developed by Germany in retaliation for Allied strategic bombing"?

Cheers, Neilster



Neilster -> RE: V weapons (8/11/2006 11:19:19 AM)

quote:

I googled V-3 rocket and got a mixture of results. The term seems to be used for the cannon, as you mention, but also a rocket. I think the V-3 was also used (incorrectly) by some folks as a reference to the "New York" rocket that was not completed before the end of the war. (IIRC, the counter bears a model name of A-1 for that rocket, but it is considered, and falls under the terms of, the V-weapon rules.)


The missile to bombard the US was the A-9/A-10, an A-10 with an A-9 upper stage. The A-9 was a highly modified A-4 (more commonly known as the V-2).

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/a9a10.htm

Cheers, Neilster



Neilster -> RE: V weapons (8/11/2006 11:34:30 AM)

quote:

This optional rule provides more verisimilitude to amphibious invasions.


Whilst I personally like the word "verisimilitude", perhaps "authenticity" would give our English as a second language folks an easier time. And most Americans. [:'(]

Only joking! [:D] WiF playing Americans are among the cleverest and best informed of all you good folk. [:D]

Cheers, Neilster



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: V weapons (8/11/2006 11:49:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Oh, and I forgot to add: I am not changing the rules from WIF FE.

The reason the units are destroyed probably has to do with the destruction of the part that is in the air, rather than the part that is on the ground. WIF FE rules treat V-Weapons like the A-Bomb in many regards (they are described together in the same paragraphs). For whatever reason, the designers have lumped them together in the same category.


I understand about not changing the rules. I just mentioned it in case it was a glaring hole that needed patching. I should have written "in retaliation for Allied strategic bombing" too.

How about "V-weapons simulate the advanced, pilotless weapons with explosive warheads that were developed by Germany in retaliation for Allied strategic bombing"?Cheers, Neilster


I am striving for shortness here. What I have is:
"V-weapons simulate the unmanned weapons of various types that Germany fired on England during the war."

Yes, I know, it is really vague. But it captures the essence of what the V-Weapons mean in WIF.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: V weapons (8/11/2006 11:58:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster
quote:

This optional rule provides more verisimilitude to amphibious invasions.


Whilst I personally like the word "verisimilitude", perhaps "authenticity" would give our English as a second language folks an easier time. And most Americans. [:'(]

Only joking! [:D] WiF playing Americans are among the cleverest and best informed of all you good folk. [:D]

Cheers, Neilster


Yeah, I thought about using other words. But since similar and simulation come from the same Latin root as verisimilitude, I decided the gist of what I was saying would come through. And when talking about war game design, verisimilitude is just so darn appropriate.

One of my on-going problems is deciding when to use words that are not something you hear said on television. I have this little mini-campaign to increase the range of words in common use by using them myself, but there is always the risk of sounding pompous. I just like words, I guess.



Neilster -> RE: V weapons (8/11/2006 3:38:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I am striving for shortness here. What I have is:
"V-weapons simulate the unmanned weapons of various types that Germany fired on England during the war."

Yes, I know, it is really vague. But it captures the essence of what the V-Weapons mean in WIF.


Ok, but thousands of them were fired at Antwerp and other bits of Western Europe.

Cheers, Neilster



Neilster -> RE: V weapons (8/11/2006 3:42:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Yeah, I thought about using other words. But since similar and simulation come from the same Latin root as verisimilitude, I decided the gist of what I was saying would come through. And when talking about war game design, verisimilitude is just so darn appropriate.

One of my on-going problems is deciding when to use words that are not something you hear said on television. I have this little mini-campaign to increase the range of words in common use by using them myself, but there is always the risk of sounding pompous. I just like words, I guess.


I'm prepared to take that risk. [:D]

Personally I'm trying to bring back 'balderdash' and 'nincompoop' [:'(] Fine, expressive words that should never have fallen out of favour. Perhaps you can work them into MWiF somewhere.

Cheers, Neilster



composer99 -> RE: optional rules (8/11/2006 8:42:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan

I don't think there should be a counter limit on these. It is arbitrary, not like manpower constraints.

Rob



Couple of comments here:

First, Patrice, I was under the impression that the Libyan oil plant (representing oil field development that historically did not, but could have in game terms, taken place there) appeared in the Libyan swamp hex.

Secondly, there are, I imagine, game balance reasons to impose a limit on synthetic oil plants according to the WiF:FE counter mix.



SamuraiProgrmmr -> RE: optional rules (8/11/2006 8:51:06 PM)

I am not sure of my opinion as I never played with synth oil, but I would ask that consideration be given to the fact that the cost may be a balancing issue for synth oil.

It is a real trade off... those are build points that could have been used for units.

Comments?



Zorachus99 -> RE: optional rules (8/11/2006 10:54:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

I am not sure of my opinion as I never played with synth oil, but I would ask that consideration be given to the fact that the cost may be a balancing issue for synth oil.

It is a real trade off... those are build points that could have been used for units.

Comments?


Synth was a big deal in WWII Germany. And that oil matters a great deal if you are using oil reorganization, sometimes more important than using it for production. Decide on reorganizing 5 oil dependant units (10 ships or 20 convoys (especially the 2bp planes)) or getting 1 resource to a factory. I tend to choose the flipped units.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: optional rules (8/12/2006 5:53:17 AM)

If history is any teacher, [and we all believe that don't we?], this post will generate some comments.[:D][:D][:D]

A couple more optional rules for you to critique.
=============================================================
[0][Divisions][RAW 2 s. 22.4.1]
This optional rule adds divisions to the game. Originally, WIF only contained corps/army sized units. In order to add more realism, Australian Design Group introduced division sized units, which have a major effect on stacking. Also, most specialty units are modeled at the division level in WIF. Just for simplicity’s sake, brigade sized units are included under the name division. Note that this optional rule does not add all division sized units to the game. For example, artillery and engineers are added under separate optional rules.

The primary effect of divisions is that they give a player the ability to have smaller, weaker units do things that otherwise would require a full corps/army sized unit. The change in the stacking rules enables players to use division sized units to add strength to individual hexes both when defending and attacking. And, as one final major effect divisions have on game play, a division can absorb a land combat loss that otherwise would have to be taken by a corps sized unit.

Divisions can be thought of as half a corps sized unit. This is an oversimplification, but not too much so. That’s because a corps sized unit can be broken down into 2 division sized units and 2 division sized units can be reformed into a corps sized unit. But there are a lot of details to performing either of those actions.

In general, divisions have the same abilities and restrictions as the corresponding unit type of corps/army size. For instance, armor divisions are like armor corps, motorized divisions are like motorized corps, and so on. Each division type goes into a new force pool. For gearing limits: (1) armor and mechanized divisions counting against armor gearing limits, (2) cavalry divisions count against cavalry gearing limits, and (3) all other infantry divisions count against infantry gearing limits.

Here is a list of restrictions and abilities pertaining to divisions:

∙ Stacking limits are 3 land units per hex but only 2 can be corps or army sized. This means that a hex can contain a maximum of 2 corps sized units plus a division.
∙ A division exerts a ZOC only into its own hex.
∙ A passive division is only worth 1 combat factor if attacked while out of supply.
∙ When choosing combat tables, divisions count as ½ a unit (rounding up). Specifically, armor and mechanized divisions count as only half an armor or mechanized unit for deciding who has the choice of combat table.
∙ In advance after combat, a motorized and cavalry corps/army cannot advance a second hex if only stacked with a mechanized or armor division. It could if it were stacked with a comparable corps/army sized unit.
∙ Although they are armor units, the Commonwealth 79th and US Marine Armor divisions can also invade from a naval transport (even when the optional rule for Amphibious Units is being used).
∙ The Commonwealth 51st air landing and German 5th mountain divisions are mountain units that can paradrop, but only into the same hex as a cooperating paratroop unit. If the accompanying paratroop is destroyed or aborted by Air-to-Air Combat or Anti-Aircraft Fire, while the air landing division survives, the air landing division must return to base.
∙ Divisions may be built ahead even though their equivalent corps type is still available in the force pools. The opposite is also true, with a corps sized unit being permitted to be built ahead even though equivalent division sized units are still in the force pool.
∙ At the start of the production step you can break down a corps or army sized unit into divisions provided that it is: (1) on-map, (2) active, and (3) not in an enemy ZOC.
∙ Divisions have the abilities and restrictions of their equivalent corps or armies in all other respects, with the exception of Invasions and Paradrops.

Breaking Down into Divisions

You may build divisions like any other land unit of its type. Or, at the start of the production step you can break down into divisions an on-map, active, corps or army unit that isn't in an enemy ZOC. Each corps or army breaks down into 1 division of the same type and 1 infantry or motorized division (the owning player’s choice). An SS corps breaks down into 1 SS division of the same type and 1 SS or regular German infantry or motorized division.

The combined strength of the 2 divisions is much weaker than the strength of the original corps/army. Precisely, the total combat factors of the divisions won't exceed half (rounding up) the combat factors of the corps or army. If there aren't enough divisions in the force pools to break down a corps or army, then you can not break down the corps or army. [This is different from WIF FE which lets the player magically pluck a division from anywhere on the map when there are not enough units in the force pool. However, a separate MWIF optional rule permits the unlimited break down of corps/army units into divisions. See that rule for the details of its implementation.]

Reforming a corps/army from Divisions

Divisions can reform into a corps or army. If 2 active divisions are stacked together, not in enemy ZOCs, at the end of the production step, and 1 of them is a motorized division, you can reform them into a corps or army of the same type as the non-motorized division. If there are no corps or armies of that type available, you can reform them as an infantry corps or army instead. The corps or army is randomly chosen from the force pools. Note that the combat factors of the corps/army will be less than twice those of the 2 divisions combined. The divisions are returned to the force pools.

For example, the Germans have a 2 factor motorized division and a 4 factor SS armor division stacked together at the start of the production step. They can be replaced by an SS armor or infantry corps that has 11 or less combat factors.

=============================================================
[78][Unlimited Breakdown][MWIF addition]
This optional rule modifies the restriction on breaking down corps/army sized units into divisions. The modification only affects the number of divisions available when breaking down a corps/army. All the other restrictions on breaking down units remain unchanged.

Also, this rule only applies to the major powers. Minor countries, even those that have a divisional unit as part of their force pools, are still unable to break down corps/army units into divisions (as is the case in WIF FE).

When this optional rule is in effect, rather than use the divisional units in the counter mix for breaking down divisions, when a player breaks down a crops/army unit, 2 new divisional units are created. As when normally breaking down units, one of the divisions is of the same type as the original unit and the second is either an infantry or motorized division (the owning player chooses). The combined strength of the divisions is always ½ or less the combat strength of the corps/army.

When a corps or army unit is broken down, it is not returned to the force pool (as it would be under the usual rules for breaking down units). Instead, it is placed in a separate pool, called the “Reform Pool”. Units in the reform pool remain there until either: (1) they are selected as the corps/army to replace 2 divisional units that are reformed into a corps/army, or (2) 2 divisional units that were created when a crops was placed in the Reform Pool are destroyed. You can basically think of the later situation as the two destroyed divisional units reforming as a corps sized unit that is then destroyed and returned to the force pool. Units in the Reform Pool can never be built while they reside there!

One effect of this optional rule is that the divisional units included in the counter mix are only available to the player by building them. They are never used when units are broken down into divisions. Indeed, when a divisional unit from the counter mix is destroyed, it is handled separately from one created through breakdown. Those from the counter mix go back into the force pools, while those divisions created when a corps/army is broken down simply disappear when they are destroyed.

However, for all other game play purposes there is no difference between the divisional units from the counter mix and those created when a corps/army is broken down into divisions.

The effect this rule has on play balance is uncertain and controversial. On the one hand it removes a somewhat artificial restriction on breaking down units that was imposed by the counter sheet limitations of WIF FE. On the other hand, it enables the Japanese player, for example, to generate a lot of divisions, place them on SCS units and invade numerous islands and other hexes in the Pacific simultaneously. Note that doing so, makes the total strength of the Japanese army units much less, but that is only temporary, until they can be reformed back into corps/armies.

This change also enables the major powers to use divisions more readily for taking casualties during land combat. But that applies to all the major powers, both on offense and defense. Again, breaking down corps/armies will reduce the total combat strength of the forces in the front lines. And one last use for this increase in the number of divisions is the opportunity to hold individual hexes with less expensive divisional units. This can be of use to Germany in Norway, and Japan for holding islands in the Pacific, for just 2 examples. It also has potential for helping to defending the somewhat porous frontlines and exposed supply lines in China.
========================
Everyone agrees on this, right?[:D][:D][:D]




lomyrin -> RE: optional rules (8/12/2006 7:17:41 AM)

If 2 of the divisons that were formed from different corps units are lost, will that return one of those corps to the main force pool provided their strenght factors are no more than half of one of those corps?

So if corps A makes Divs A1 and A2 and corps B makes Divs B1 and B2 and then Divs A1 and B1 are lost in battles, can one of the corps A or B be returned to the main force pool or must the specific Divs be lost for each corps to be returned?

Lars



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: optional rules (8/12/2006 7:44:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
If 2 of the divisons that were formed from different corps units are lost, will that return one of those corps to the main force pool provided their strenght factors are no more than half of one of those corps?

So if corps A makes Divs A1 and A2 and corps B makes Divs B1 and B2 and then Divs A1 and B1 are lost in battles, can one of the corps A or B be returned to the main force pool or must the specific Divs be lost for each corps to be returned?

Lars


Yes. I have yet to work through all the possible combinations and permutations. My goal is to return the strongest corps to the force pool possible within the usual restrictions on forming up a corps from two units.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: optional rules (8/13/2006 9:45:07 PM)

Some more optional rule writeups for you to critique.

=============================================================
[24][Optional CV Searching][RAW 27 s. 11.5.5]
This optional rule makes the effectiveness of carrier based air units, when performing naval searches, dependent on the range of the air unit. The effect of this rule is that carrier based air units built early in the war are much less effective when performing naval searches that those built later in the war.

Normally, the search number for a sea box is increased by 1 in Fine, Snow, or Rain when an undamaged, committed carrier is present. This optional rule replaces that universal increase of 1 with a modification based on the carrier air unit with the longest range. Note that the carrier air unit must be on an undamaged, committed carrier. If the longest range is 1-3, there is no modification made to the search number. If the range is 4-6, the search number is increased by 1. Finally, if the range is 7 or more, the search number is increased by 2.
=============================================================
[25][Pilots][RAW 28 s. 14.6]
In World in Flames, each aircraft unit comes with an inherent air and ground crews, which together are simply referred to as a ‘pilot’. This optional rule separates the pilot from the aircraft, which affects how air units are built, made operational, and destroyed. Basically, if you built 4 air units, but only 3 pilots, then one of the air units would not be available for combat duty. Instead, it would be placed in an air reserve pool. Under certain conditions though an air unit is destroyed, its pilot may survive and can then be assigned to an air unit from the air reserve.

V-Weapons and A-bombs do not need pilots. Carrier units are only affected by the optional rule for Pilots if the additional optional rule for Carrier Air units is also being used.

Pilots are built/trained separately from air units (each pilot costs 2 build points) and the cost of each air unit is comparably reduced by 2 build points. The net result is that an air force costs slightly less when this optional rule is being used. The reduction is caused by 2 events: (1) pilots surviving after the air unit itself is destroyed, and (2) poorer quality air units never being assigned pilots but instead left in the air reserve indefinitely. In the latter case, what happens is that a player builds a group of air units and assigns pilots to the best ones in the group. Rather than give the poorer units pilots, he instead builds more air units and holds the pilot(s) in reserve, awaiting the arrival of the better air units as reinforcements.

Pilots cost 2 build points and take 3 turns to train. They are subject to gearing limits as a separate class. In the reinforcement stage the number of arriving pilots is immediately added to the number of available pilots. Instead of putting reinforcing air units directly onto the map, you decide whether to assign them a pilot (assuming a pilot is available) or to place them in the air reserve pool. For each aircraft assigned a pilot, the number of available pilots is reduced by 1, of course.

After you have finished placing new reinforcements, you can remove active air units from the map and put them into the air reserve pool. They must be in a city in their home country to do this. For each aircraft you move to the air reserve pool, the number of available pilots increases by 1. You can move minor country air units into the air reserve pool from any city that its reinforcements can arrive in.

For example, the German player has 2 available pilots at the start of the Nov/Dec 1939 reinforcement stage. He takes 2 aircraft from the air reserve pool and puts them on the map, reducing his available pilot total to 0. Then he removes the obsolete He-51 from Berlin and moves it to the air reserve pool, increasing his available pilots total to 1. Note well, that pilot can not be assigned to an air unit until the next turn.

If an air unit is destroyed, the pilot might ‘die’ with it. The pilot dies if the aircraft is destroyed:
∙ in a sea area where his side has neither a naval unit nor a port,
∙ by an orange air-to-air combat result and the combat was over any sea area or enemy controlled hex,
∙ by a red air-to-air combat result,
∙ by anti-aircraft fire,
∙ by being overrun on the ground if the air unit is passive,
∙ by being overrun on the ground, even if the air unit is active, if the owner is surprised that impulse,
∙ by being in its home country when it is conquered,
∙ because it cannot return to base,
∙ by carpet bombing,
∙ if it is marked with a black death's head, or
∙ while flying a kamikaze mission.

Though the circumstances warranting this occur rarely, you can convert pilots back into build points. The two occasions when this might happen are: towards the end of the game when you find yourself with a glut of pilots, or in a desperate situation when you need every possible build point simply to hold on. During the production phase, simply give yourself 1 extra build point for each pilot you subtract from your total available pilots.

Any air unit on a damaged and successfully aborted naval transport, is placed into production to arrive as reinforcement in the next turn. This includes the arrival of a pilot for the air unit.

When using the optional rule for Carrier Air units, any carrier plane on a damaged and successfully aborted carrier, is placed into production to arrive as reinforcement in the next turn. This includes the arrival of a pilot for the carrier air unit. However, when a carrier is destroyed , any carrier air unit and its pilot are destroyed also.

When using the optional rule for Bottomed Ships, a carrier plane and its pilot on a bottomed carrier are still destroyed.

When using the optional rule for Internment, a minor country air unit can rebase into a neutral minor country. An air unit that does that is destroyed, but the pilot survives and the number of available pilots increases by 1.

When using the optional rule for Recruitment Limits only 1 air unit, with its pilot, may be placed in each eligible city.

There are special rules for pilots when a country is conquered or Vichy France is declared. For the details on what happens to pilots already assigned to air units and to those in production, see the section of the rules for Conquest and Vichy France.
=============================================================
[26][Food In Flames][RAW 29 s. 13.6.1]
This optional rule reflects the dependence of Great Britain on the rest of the Commonwealth for food. If supply lines to the other member nations of the Commonwealth are not maintained to Great Britain, then the factories there produce less.

For each of (1) Australia, (2) Canada, (3) India, and (4) South Africa where no resources are transported to a factory in Great Britain during a turn, the number of resources that did reach a useable factory in Great Britain is reduced by two (minimum 0). The Commonwealth player chooses which resources are lost.

For example, it is Jul/Aug 1942, and the Commonwealth player managed to ship 1 resource from Canada to a factory in Great Britain this turn. Alas the convoy lines from India and South Africa are cut and Australia is Japanese controlled. A total of 15 resources did reach useable factories in Great Britain this turn. Because 3 of the requisite 4 convoy pipelines were cut, that number is reduced by 6, from 15 to 9. The Commonwealth chooses to lose 6 non-oil resources.



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