RE: optional rules (Full Version)

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Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 2:47:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
Carrier planes range in cost from 0 to 1 to build points each when using pilots. A 0 BP cost plane can also be useful to maintain or increase gearing limits.
Stacking of 2 carrier planes that can fit on 1 carrier is a separate option in WiFFE.

Carrier planes reorganizing costs .1 oil each not .5 oil each.
Lars


I agree. Thank you for the correction.

I intend to review all the optional rules as to whether to separate them into pieces or not. But not until I complete this exercise of defining them all clearly. Mainly,I expect the Convoy in Flames optional rule to warrant fragmentation.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 2:52:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

A carrier air unit can fly a mission from a hex just like any other air unit. It is treated as if it were a fighter if it flies as a fighter and as a bomber if it flew as a bomber. If it hasn't yet decided its role (i.e. it is in a sea area), it has the effects of a bomber.

(...)

Carrier air units may only perform normal (i.e., like other air units) rebase missions when not stacked on a carrier.

Both sentences contradict each other, so you should remove the first, and only leave the last.
This is a leftover in the rules from the times when Option 56 did not forbid Carrier Planes from flying missions from hexes.
Now they are only allowed to fly missions from CV.

*******************************
14.4.1 Carrier plane units (CVPiF & SiF option 56)
(...)
Carrier planes as aircraft
CVPiF option 56: Carrier planes may only ever fly rebase missions when not stacked on a CV.
*******************************

Also, you can add that :
- A TRS transports 2 CVP.
- CVP add one tenth of their Air to Air rating as backup fighters.


Your last two points are in the writeup (somewhere).

How about ...

A carrier air unit can fly air missions from a hex just like any other air unit - with the one exception is that it can only fly rebase missions in the manner described earlier. It is treated as if it were a fighter if it flies as a fighter and as a bomber if it flies as a bomber. If it hasn't yet decided its role (i.e. it is in a sea area), it has the effects of a bomber.




lomyrin -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 4:06:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

I will stand by the extermely powerful label for the partisan HQ. Consider a Germany that is deep into Russia with their HQ's at the front far to the east. German units are placed for garrison purposes but they are usually out of supply and cannor fight the partisan HQ. Now the Partisan HQ moves from south to north cutting off rail line after rail line and making a run of hexes German supply cannot cross threatening to put the entire German fighting forces out of supply deep into Russia. Germany must then rail an HQ back from the front to stop this partisan HQ. Just disorganizing it is not good enough since it will reorg at the end of turn. That is power.

Lars

Generaly, the Axis always have at least 1 HQ it can rail move to kill a threatening PART regrouping.
Either this is the HQ that keeps the Kriegsmarine in Supply in France, sometimes it is a reinforcing HQ that makes a stop in his movement east to kill the PART, sometimes it is a minor country HQ as the Rumanian or Yugoslavian, and sometimes it is an Italian one. There are also some supply sources around in Russia such as Moscow, the Baltic States Capitals, and the Ports of the Black Sea.
I agree this is a nuisance, but never could Zoya be able to move south to north cutting railways as you describe if the Axis take the PART problem seriously.


Moscow is not a supply source for Germany until Russia has been conquered.

Yes, an HQ can be railed to deal with the partisan HQ but it will be disorganized and not able to do more than provide supply for perhaps 1 or 2 garrison units. That is not nearly enough to knock out Zoya.

If this is in say 43, you can usually not afford to take an HQ from France to do the job.

I am not disputing the rule but am likely to not use this option after all.

Lars




composer99 -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 5:41:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

This is an old post I intended to respond to but never did. placing the Italian synthetic oil plant in the coast is important for enabling it to be convoyed by sea. That wouldn't be possible if it were in the inland swamp hex. And the hex number on the counter is very precise as to where it should be placed.


Ah. You are correct (the swamp hex is just nearby, that would explain my confusion). Not that I've ever seen any Italians shell out the 10 bp for the thing. Too many other things to spend the bps on, and not much chance of getting any return on your investment.




composer99 -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 5:52:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Your last two points are in the writeup (somewhere).

How about ...

A carrier air unit can fly air missions from a hex just like any other air unit - with the one exception is that it can only fly rebase missions in the manner described earlier. It is treated as if it were a fighter if it flies as a fighter and as a bomber if it flies as a bomber. If it hasn't yet decided its role (i.e. it is in a sea area), it has the effects of a bomber.



Perhaps the following would be better:

"Carrier air units can fly air missions from carriers just like other air units fly missions from hexes, but they can only fly rebase missions from hexes, as described earlier. It is treated [...]."

I might add here that I think you said that land-based fighters add 0.5 factors to an air-to-air combat when they are in backup, but they should add 1 factor. Unless I am out-of-date on land-based fighters fighting a2a in a sea-box:

quote:

Instead of adding the usual 0.5, carrier air units add one-tenth of their air-to-air strength as back-up fighters.




composer99 -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 5:59:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

here is a fun question about Guards Banner Armies - When exactly do you promote them? Does "after the battle" mean before advancing into a second hex as a result of a Breakthrough result? This makes a difference for possibly overrunning anything in the second hex.

I think that the Battle ends after the advance after combat. Common sense dictate that. How a unit would instantly gain 30% combat points before advancing after combat ?
The Combat and the Advance after combat are all part of the Battle for me.


The rules in 11.16 Land Combat are reasonably clear on this, I think, since "Advance after Combat" is mentioned as part of 11.16.5 Resolving Attacks, which is clearly part of the combat sequence of play. Furthermore, in 22.4.14 Guards Banner Armies, the rules explicitly state "The replacing Guards Banner unit maintains the same facing as the unit it replaces." According to strict sequence of play, modifying the facing of attacking or defending units happens after advancing after combat. When you reference both the combat resolution rules and the Guards Banner rules, I think it's pretty unambiguous.




Zorachus99 -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 7:38:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

here is a fun question about Guards Banner Armies - When exactly do you promote them? Does "after the battle" mean before advancing into a second hex as a result of a Breakthrough result? This makes a difference for possibly overrunning anything in the second hex.

I think that the Battle ends after the advance after combat. Common sense dictate that. How a unit would instantly gain 30% combat points before advancing after combat ?
The Combat and the Advance after combat are all part of the Battle for me.


The rules in 11.16 Land Combat are reasonably clear on this, I think, since "Advance after Combat" is mentioned as part of 11.16.5 Resolving Attacks, which is clearly part of the combat sequence of play. Furthermore, in 22.4.14 Guards Banner Armies, the rules explicitly state "The replacing Guards Banner unit maintains the same facing as the unit it replaces." According to strict sequence of play, modifying the facing of attacking or defending units happens after advancing after combat. When you reference both the combat resolution rules and the Guards Banner rules, I think it's pretty unambiguous.


I think facing is used here to indicate face up or face down.




Froonp -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 11:39:24 AM)

quote:

Moscow is not a supply source for Germany until Russia has been conquered.

Oh, thanks for pointing this out !!! [&o]
I never realized that Major Power Capitals were secondary supply sources when conquered, and Minor Countries Capitals were secondary supply sources when controlled.
I always assumed that they became secondary supply sources when controlled.
I'm happy to know I was wrong, it's another thing we will play right in our next game [:D].




Neilster -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 12:28:17 PM)

So what to do about the partisan HQ?

There seems to be a growing concensus that it might be a bit powerful. I guess I can always not play with the rule.

My feeling is that partisans should be a problem for the Axis if they neglect garrison forces but not something that requires moving HQs (which represent a massive amount of manpower and materiel) around Europe to chase down. Partisans were really only able to operate with any freedom in rugged/wooded terrain and when given significant assistance from some outside source. This doesn't really gel with an HQ rampaging around in any hex it likes behind enemy lines and getting reorganized every turn, no matter where it is (unless I've misunderstood something).

Cheers, Neilster

Edited to add "able" in "only able to operate". An error of omission.




Froonp -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 1:07:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

So what to do about the partisan HQ?

There seems to be a growing concensus that it might be a bit powerful. I guess I can always not play with the rule.

My feeling is that partisans should be a problem for the Axis if they neglect garrison forces but not something that requires moving HQs (which represent a massive amount of manpower and materiel) around Europe to chase down. Partisans were really only to operate with any freedom in rugged/wooded terrain and when given significant assistance from some outside source. This doesn't really gel with an HQ rampaging around in any hex it likes behind enemy lines and getting reorganized every turn, no matter where it is (unless I've misunderstood something).

Cheers, Neilster

Well, anyway you're obliged if you want to fight the partisans threat efficiently to now & then rail move a HQ from somewhere, this PART HQ rules does not add that, Partisans already have that side effect. This is easy to counter, as any other partisans are easy to counter, nothing more.
As I said previously, you see Zoya coming from the turn before, so there's plenty of time to muster the supply if needed (it is not always needed, lomyrin argument was in the frame of a German deep in Russia with German HQ too far from the rear areas which IS NOT the common case neither) and to muster at least 2 garrisoning troops to at least ZoC it and to prevent it from moving.

I'm worried that lomyrin's remark has growed this feeling as this is a false feeling.




Zorachus99 -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 3:10:36 PM)

I didn't know Zoya and Tito could change ownership of a hex !!

Regardless of this ability, some partisans are part of a forcepool (the yugoslav partisan for instance). These partisans are drawn before generic partisans are placed correct?

If so, do home country partisans count against foreign trooop commitments, allowing the partisan to leave the home country based on the reorganization value of Tito (is it 0)?

Worst case is Tito conquers bulgaria if ungarrisoned... other unpleasant things as well considering he has ZOC. Something to watch out for.




Froonp -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 3:24:48 PM)

quote:

Regardless of this ability, some partisans are part of a forcepool (the yugoslav partisan for instance). These partisans are drawn before generic partisans are placed correct?

These partisans are from older countersheets and are no longer used in WiF FE. They are not part of WiF FE.
Edit : These partisans are from the very first Countersheet 14 released in 1993 for WiF 5th Edition. They disappeared in the following reprinting in 1997, reprinting which was the first released with WiF FE.




Zorachus99 -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 6:45:08 PM)

They came on the countersheet replacements (I've bought 3 replacements for Wif FE) that I purchased in late 2003. I'm using my newest obviously.

Strange...




composer99 -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 6:51:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

So what to do about the partisan HQ?

There seems to be a growing concensus that it might be a bit powerful. I guess I can always not play with the rule.

My feeling is that partisans should be a problem for the Axis if they neglect garrison forces but not something that requires moving HQs (which represent a massive amount of manpower and materiel) around Europe to chase down. Partisans were really only able to operate with any freedom in rugged/wooded terrain and when given significant assistance from some outside source. This doesn't really gel with an HQ rampaging around in any hex it likes behind enemy lines and getting reorganized every turn, no matter where it is (unless I've misunderstood something).

Cheers, Neilster

Edited to add "able" in "only able to operate". An error of omission.


You have, if you're using oil rules. If Zoya or Tito flip over and can't get at friendly oil sources, they won't be able to re-organize, even if they're in supply.

Furthermore, neither Zoya nor Tito are excellent combat units, and most partisans themselves have pretty crappy combat factors (except for some post-war ones that won't appear in MWiF 1). With just a few low-power HQs (Mannerheim in the summers, Antonescu, an Italian or two, and von Leeb if you leave Kesselring in the West by 1942) you can maintain supply pretty well over the rear areas of European Russia, or at least over those areas you are conducting a partisan sweep in, and given partisans' (and partisan HQs') poor combat factors you don't have to bring back kill-stacks from the front to deal with them.




composer99 -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 6:56:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99
The rules in 11.16 Land Combat are reasonably clear on this, I think, since "Advance after Combat" is mentioned as part of 11.16.5 Resolving Attacks, which is clearly part of the combat sequence of play. Furthermore, in 22.4.14 Guards Banner Armies, the rules explicitly state "The replacing Guards Banner unit maintains the same facing as the unit it replaces." According to strict sequence of play, modifying the facing of attacking or defending units happens after advancing after combat. When you reference both the combat resolution rules and the Guards Banner rules, I think it's pretty unambiguous.

I think facing is used here to indicate face up or face down.


Yes, there can be no doubt about that. The point is that it becomes clear, when cross-referencing the rules, as to when Guards Banner promotion occurs:

You advance after combat, if possible.
Then, you adjust the participating units' facing (turning some of them face-down if needed).
Then, the USSR player, whether the attacker or defender, is eligible to promote units to Guards Banner Armies if enough German forces were destroyed/shattered/retreated over the Soviet forces destroyed/shattered/retreated, and this is so because the new Guards Banner Armies maintain the same facing (as previously determined) as the units they replace.




Neilster -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 7:37:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99


quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

So what to do about the partisan HQ?

There seems to be a growing concensus that it might be a bit powerful. I guess I can always not play with the rule.

My feeling is that partisans should be a problem for the Axis if they neglect garrison forces but not something that requires moving HQs (which represent a massive amount of manpower and materiel) around Europe to chase down. Partisans were really only able to operate with any freedom in rugged/wooded terrain and when given significant assistance from some outside source. This doesn't really gel with an HQ rampaging around in any hex it likes behind enemy lines and getting reorganized every turn, no matter where it is (unless I've misunderstood something).

Cheers, Neilster

Edited to add "able" in "only able to operate". An error of omission.


You have, if you're using oil rules. If Zoya or Tito flip over and can't get at friendly oil sources, they won't be able to re-organize, even if they're in supply.

Furthermore, neither Zoya nor Tito are excellent combat units, and most partisans themselves have pretty crappy combat factors (except for some post-war ones that won't appear in MWiF 1). With just a few low-power HQs (Mannerheim in the summers, Antonescu, an Italian or two, and von Leeb if you leave Kesselring in the West by 1942) you can maintain supply pretty well over the rear areas of European Russia, or at least over those areas you are conducting a partisan sweep in, and given partisans' (and partisan HQs') poor combat factors you don't have to bring back kill-stacks from the front to deal with them.



Good. I suppose the flip-side is that (unless I'm mistaken) the oil option is generally Axis unfriendly. So subtle, is WiF....

Cheers, Neilster





lomyrin -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 8:04:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99


quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

So what to do about the partisan HQ?

There seems to be a growing concensus that it might be a bit powerful. I guess I can always not play with the rule.

My feeling is that partisans should be a problem for the Axis if they neglect garrison forces but not something that requires moving HQs (which represent a massive amount of manpower and materiel) around Europe to chase down. Partisans were really only able to operate with any freedom in rugged/wooded terrain and when given significant assistance from some outside source. This doesn't really gel with an HQ rampaging around in any hex it likes behind enemy lines and getting reorganized every turn, no matter where it is (unless I've misunderstood something).

Cheers, Neilster

Edited to add "able" in "only able to operate". An error of omission.


You have, if you're using oil rules. If Zoya or Tito flip over and can't get at friendly oil sources, they won't be able to re-organize, even if they're in supply.

Furthermore, neither Zoya nor Tito are excellent combat units, and most partisans themselves have pretty crappy combat factors (except for some post-war ones that won't appear in MWiF 1). With just a few low-power HQs (Mannerheim in the summers, Antonescu, an Italian or two, and von Leeb if you leave Kesselring in the West by 1942) you can maintain supply pretty well over the rear areas of European Russia, or at least over those areas you are conducting a partisan sweep in, and given partisans' (and partisan HQs') poor combat factors you don't have to bring back kill-stacks from the front to deal with them.



Zoya does not need oil to reorganize, it is exempt from that rule and since it is always in supply in it's home country it will always reoerganize at the end of turn.

It is a 6 factor white print HQ and not all that easy to kill.

As Patrice pointed out some players feel it is very powerful, other do not share that opinion.

Lars




Zorachus99 -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 8:27:59 PM)

That sounds like rather bizarre behavior. Particularly when it says that the Zoya is treated like 'any other HQ-I'. That means oil would need to be used if you asked me.

The dilimma is that oil cannot be traced over enemy controlled hexes, where Zoya would normally operate. However considering it's value, perhaps it should make a path to an oil source (capturing a port most likely). Particulary since it changes the control of hexes as it moves. Partisans can no longer be placed in hexes the HQ has walked through. Units can no longer be railed over enemy controlled hexes. Quite powerful.




lomyrin -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 8:55:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

That sounds like rather bizarre behavior. Particularly when it says that the Zoya is treated like 'any other HQ-I'. That means oil would need to be used if you asked me.

The dilimma is that oil cannot be traced over enemy controlled hexes, where Zoya would normally operate. However considering it's value, perhaps it should make a path to an oil source (capturing a port most likely). Particulary since it changes the control of hexes as it moves. Partisans can no longer be placed in hexes the HQ has walked through. Units can no longer be railed over enemy controlled hexes. Quite powerful.


Check the latest rules para 22.4.16 (Partisan HQ's). It details the supply and no oil requirement.

Lars




Zorachus99 -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 10:24:58 PM)

Gah my electronic version of the RAW is already out of date?  [sm=00000023.gif]





Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 10:35:14 PM)

I am closing in on the last of these. I expect to finish them by the end of the month.

=============================================================
[59][Offensive Chits][RAW 61 s. 16]
This optional rule models the ability of a major power to accumulate logistical strength in preparation for a major offensive effort. It is quite important for game dynamics. Specifically, it increases the ability of players to break strong defensive lines. Typically it is used by Germany to break the Allied defense of France and the Low Countries in 1940, but it’s also used by both sides in the USSR, and by the Allies when they need to break Fortress Europe. The Japanese and USA benefit too in the Pacific when they need to perform numerous naval invasions simultaneously. In general, it is a splendid rule that enhances the dynamics of the game - with the ever present caveat of increasing the complexity as well.

An offensive chit represents the assembly of large quantities of supplies and replacements for a major offensive. Each offensive chit costs 15 build points and takes 3 turns to build. You can use an offensive chit in one of the five ways listed below. Each active major power can use only 1 offensive chit per impulse. Neutral major powers cannot use an offensive chit. After you use an offensive chit, it is destroyed.

It is easiest to think of the different uses of offensive chits by the choice of Action you have taken for an impulse. The benefits are as follows:

Air action
∙ At the start of an air action designate 1 of your active HQs to distribute the logistics of the offensive chit. The HQ may not be on a naval transport.
∙ The range of the designated HQ is its reorganization value, measured in hexes and/or hex-dots. The range calculation ignores terrain, neutral countries, enemy units, and enemy ZOCs.
∙ All aircraft units controlled by your major power roll an extra die in any ground strike mission they conduct within range of the designated HQ. This is cumulative with surprise effects and the Tank Busters optional rule.
∙ All aircraft units controlled by your major power double their bombing factors in any other air mission (except naval-air or naval-air interception) they conduct within range of the designated HQ.
∙ Every aircraft unit reorganized by the designated HQ only costs half the usual reorganization point cost.
∙ The designated HQ can move, fight and/or reorganize units normally during the impulse it supplies benefits.
∙ At the end of the impulse, the HQ becomes passive (if it isn’t already).

Naval action
∙ At the start of a naval action designate 1 of your active HQs to distribute the logistics of the offensive chit. The HQ must be in a port hex and may not be on a naval transport.
∙ Immediately, every passive naval unit controlled by your major power becomes active if the unit is: (1) in the port, (2) in 1 designated sea area that the port borders, or (3) in every port that is adjacent to the designated sea area. If the HQ’s port borders two or more sea areas, then the player designates one of them to receive the benefits. Carrier air units receive this benefit too, if they are on carriers that qualify under one of the three listed conditions.
∙ At the end of the impulse, the HQ becomes passive (if it isn’t already).

Land action
∙ At the start of a land action designate 1 of your active HQs to distribute the logistics of the offensive chit. The HQ may not be on a naval transport.
∙ The range of the designated HQ is its reorganization value, measured in hexes and/or hex-dots. The range calculation ignores terrain, neutral countries, enemy units, and enemy ZOCs.
∙ You gain the ability to double the strength of your units during combat as described below. However, the number of units that can gain this benefit is limited to twice the designated HQ's reorganization value. For example, if the HQ has 3 reorganization points, then you can double the strength of 6 units.
∙ You can double the combat factors of the major power's land units within range of the designated HQ when you calculate the final odds for an overrun or land combat.
∙ You can double the same unit in more than one overrun or land combat but it counts against the designated HQ’s total each time.
∙ You can only double each unit once per overrun or land combat. This means you can not quadruple a unit’s combat strength.
∙ If you are using the Artillery optional rule, then for a field artillery unit within range of the designated HQ you can also (1) double the artillery unit’s combat factors for ground support or (2) receive an extra die roll during a ground strike by the artillery unit.
∙ Every land unit reorganized by the designated HQ only costs half the usual reorganization point cost. This benefit is completely separate from the doubling benefits.
∙ At the end of the impulse, the HQ becomes passive (if it isn’t already).

Combined action
∙ If you play an offensive chit at the start of a combined action, you can perform the maximum number of activities that would be allowed if you had chosen a naval, an air and a land action (e.g. as Germany you could perform unlimited air missions, naval moves, naval combats, land moves, and land combats, but only 3 rail moves).
∙ It only costs half the normal reorganization point cost of a combined action to reorganize each land, naval or aircraft unit. This benefit applies to all units reorganized by HQs, and also to those reorganized by air and naval transports.


Reorganize HQs
∙ Lastly, you can play an offensive chit at the start of a naval, air, land, or combined action, to make all of the passive HQs controlled by your major power active. This is in lieu of gaining any of the previous listed benefits.
=============================================================
[60][Ukraine][RAW 62 s. 19.12]
This optional rule simulates a possible political decision that could have been made by either Germany or the USSR. Neither of them made this decision, so it is purely a “what if” optional rule.

The Ukrainian army represents the forces that could have been raised by both sides if a more tolerant attitude had been displayed towards the Ukrainians. At the start of the game, all Ukrainian units are removed from the game.

At the start of any Peace step, the major power controlling Kiev can expend an offensive chit to create the Ukrainian minor country.

If an Axis major power creates The Ukraine, Germany must destroy 1 of each type (militia, garrison, infantry, motorized, etc) of SS corps on the map or the production circle (owner's choice). If a corps of a type isn't on the map or production circle, 1 of that type taken from the force pool must be removed from the game instead (owner's choice). If the German player refuses to do this, then the Ukraine is not created.

When the Ukraine is created, all hexes in The Ukraine controlled by the creating side become Ukrainian home country hexes. As more hexes in the Ukraine become controlled by the creating side, they immediately revert to Ukrainian home country hexes.

All hexes in the Ukraine controlled by the other side remain under their control. However, their status changes to conquered Ukrainian hexes (except for Soviet controlled cities which remain part of the Soviet home country for supply only, and even then only until occupied by an Axis controlled unit).

Immediately upon creating the Ukraine, the Ukrainian militia is placed on the production circle to arrive as a reinforcement in the following turn. The remaining available Ukrainian units are added to the force pools and may be purchased from now on. In future years, as more units become available, those units too are added to the force pools. Soviet militia from cities in the Ukraine are removed from the game if they are not on the map. And if they are on the map when the Ukraine is created, then they are removed from the game when they are destroyed (i.e., they do not go back into the force pool).

Once created, the Ukraine is treated as a separate minor country with Kiev as its capital aligned with the installing major power (e.g. all blue factories are available to the owner, Kiev is a secondary supply source, etc). It can be conquered and liberated in the same manner as any other minor country.

Before the Ukrainian minor country is created, Soviet (not Ukrainian) partisans may be placed there. As soon as the Ukrainian minor country is created, remove all partisans in The Ukraine. Soviet partisans may no longer be placed there. Instead, whenever a roll for partisans in the Soviet Union is called for, you also make a separate roll for partisans in The Ukraine. The partisan number in the Ukraine is 10 and only affects enemy major powers (i.e. equivalent to the green partisans on the Partisan table).

For example, the Soviets control Kiev in May/Jun 1944. At the start of the production step, they expend an offensive chit to create the Ukrainian state. All partisans in the Ukraine are removed. During the next partisan step, the Partisan table calls for partisans to be rolled for in the Soviet Union. You would make two rolls, one for partisans in the Soviet Union and one for partisans in the Ukraine.

If a unit controlled by an Axis major power (except Ukrainian) enters or declares war on The Ukraine, the USSR can break the Nazi-Soviet pact during any Allied declaration of war step.
=============================================================
[65][City Based Volunteers][RAW 67 s. 22.4.8]
This optional rule simulates the volunteers from certain select cities that potentially would have fought for specific major powers. As examples, Vlassov was a successful Soviet general who defected to the Germans after his capture, the SS recruited personnel from occupied areas and Japan used some Chinese and potentially would have used some Indians or Siberians as well.

These units become available to the respective major power when their home city is controlled by that major power. During any production step while this city is controlled, that major power may place that unit onto the production circle as if built that turn. These units are free the first time they are purchased and do not count for gearing limits. They arrive as reinforcements in their home city.

City based volunteers that arrive in cities in an aligned minor country, are units of that minor county. All other volunteers are major power units. If they are killed, they are returned to the controlling major power's force pool and may be built again later, but you have to pay and gear for them normally from their second build onwards.

When their city is occupied or conquered by an enemy major power, city based volunteers are removed from the game if they are in the force pool or on the production circle when the city falls. If instead they are on the map, then they remain under control of their controlling major power until they are destroyed.

Note that as their home cities may be controlled, lost, and then re-controlled during the game, these units can enter and leave the game several times. However, they are free only once nonetheless.

At the start of a campaign, it is assumed that none of the units have been brought into the game yet (e.g. the Austrian SS unit can be purchased free the first time it is built in any campaign).
=============================================================
[75][Facility Repair][CWIF addition]
This optional rule will be replaced by the optional rule for Construction Engineers (4b) described previously.
=============================================================
[76][Scrap Units][CWIF addition]
This optional rule simplifies play by removing any need for the players to make decisions about which units to scrap. The effect of this optional rule is stark: no unit is ever scrapped. Note that eliminating scrapping units can have a substantial impact on game play, though for the Barbarossa scenario it is not too bad.

Serious effort has been put into simplifying the decision making process for scrapping units. For example, there are recommendations/defaults for which units to scrap at the start of every scenario for every major power. Also, if you make your own decisions as to which units to scrap at the start of a scenario, those decisions can be saved to a file and reused for all future games.

Nonetheless, the concept of scrapping units can be difficult for beginners to understand, so this optional rule is provided as a way of making the game easier to play while climbing the learning curve.
=============================================================
[80][Extended Game][CWIF addition]
This optional rule extends the game to August/September of 1948. Of course the game could always end sooner by mutual agreement of the players or by one side achieving an automatic victory.
=============================================================
[81][Unrestricted Setup][CWIF addition]
This optional rule removes some historical constraints imposed on the players when setting up their units. WIF purists will say that this is a gross distortion of the game, but it is a common enough optional rule in computer games, so it is included here.

Instead of each player having his units separated into groups that have specific restrictions on where they set up, all of a player’s setup units at the start of a scenario are lumped into one large group and any unit can be placed in any hex the player controls. Normal stacking limits are in effect. Using this optional rule also removes the restriction on the German and USSR forces having to set up close to the front line in Barbarossa and many other scenarios.




Froonp -> RE: optional rules (8/29/2006 10:55:13 PM)

quote:

59][Offensive Chits][RAW 61 s. 16]

About offensive chits there are some things wrong :

You state in a couple of places : "The HQ may not be on a naval transport."
This is not what the rule say. They say : "An HQ cannot supply benefits while on a TRS."
Your writeup seems to say that the HQ designated for Offensive Chit canot be on a TRS. In reality, what the rule means is that the OC benefits cannot be given to a HQ which is on a TRS.
Example : Clark is on a TRS. A Land OC is played on him. He and a MAR Corps and a MAR INF invade Truk.
When Clark is invading, he is no more in the TRS, so the OC benefits now apply. He can double him and the 2 other corps, and the ART that is firing from a nearby island.

The part :
"∙ The designated HQ can move, fight and/or reorganize units normally during the impulse it supplies benefits."
In the Air Action is irrelevant, the HQ cannot move nor fight in an Air Action.

The part about Naval Actions is the old one, it was changed in the latest rule.
Now, it is :
*****************************************
16.2 Naval action
If you play an offensive chit at the start of a naval action, specify one of your face up HQs that is in a port hex. Any naval or aircraft units stacked in that hex that initiates a naval combat (see 11.5.2) may demand a re-roll of the search dice (see 11.5.5) by both sides, in any round of combat this impulse.
Re-rolling of naval search dice may be demanded any number of times this impulse provided that the total number demanded does not exceed the HQ's reorganisation value.
Example: Nimitz is in Pearl Harbor stacked with 3 SCS and a P-38G FTR. Jay plays a naval offensive chit on Nimitz at the start of his naval action. The Lighting flies into the 4 box of the Hawaiian Islands and the 3 SCSs into the 4 box of the Marshalls sea area, both of which contain Japanese and US units. During the naval combat step the US picks the Marshall Sea area and they both roll search die. The Japanese roll a 2 to a US roll of 10.
Jay demands a re-roll. This time he rolls a 5 while Kasigi rolls a 3. This commits the entire Japanese navy but only the US carrier fleet in the 4 box is included. Jay could take a risk and use up Nimitz's third and last re-roll on another roll, but decides to save this for later rounds (or even to help the Lightning in the Hawaiian Islands) on the (wise) assumption that the search re-roll might end up worse rather than better.
*****************************************




composer99 -> RE: optional rules (8/30/2006 4:37:07 AM)

(1) I remember during the WiFCon 2005 seeing the latest Naval O-Chit rules in action at another table. It turned out to be a bit of a dud - but that was Pablo's bad luck on the dice.

(2) The fact that partisan HQ's don't need oil to reorganize is an advantageous thing for them. All the more reason for the Axis to align Yugo by conquering Greece, I guess. Not to mention make sure they have adequate garrison left behind in the USSR - but that is what all those crappy city volunteer SS militia and garrison units are good for.

(3) The CWiF extended game option will not make a lot of sense unless you are playing with the WiF/AiF/PatiF "Supergame" rules, but of course they will not be implemented in MWiF. Otherwise, they just mean the Allies have three more years to beat the Axis to bits.

(4) I remember once trying the Unrestricted Set-up in the CWiF Beta before I got rid of it. All I remember, sadly, is that I remember trying it. It must not have been very memorable, although in principle it could be interesting.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: optional rules (8/30/2006 5:16:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99
(1) I remember during the WiFCon 2005 seeing the latest Naval O-Chit rules in action at another table. It turned out to be a bit of a dud - but that was Pablo's bad luck on the dice.

(2) The fact that partisan HQ's don't need oil to reorganize is an advantageous thing for them. All the more reason for the Axis to align Yugo by conquering Greece, I guess. Not to mention make sure they have adequate garrison left behind in the USSR - but that is what all those crappy city volunteer SS militia and garrison units are good for.

(3) The CWiF extended game option will not make a lot of sense unless you are playing with the WiF/AiF/PatiF "Supergame" rules, but of course they will not be implemented in MWiF. Otherwise, they just mean the Allies have three more years to beat the Axis to bits.

(4) I remember once trying the Unrestricted Set-up in the CWiF Beta before I got rid of it. All I remember, sadly, is that I remember trying it. It must not have been very memorable, although in principle it could be interesting.


Unrestricted setup shouldn't have all that much effect in the Global War scenario. But for some of the other scenarios, where there are 4 times as many units at the start of the game - well, then it could have major consequences.




Neilster -> RE: optional rules (8/30/2006 5:54:50 AM)

quote:

...August/September of 1948


Eh? When I last played WiF, the turns were Jul/Aug and Sep/Oct. Have they changed?

Cheers, Neilster




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: optional rules (8/30/2006 6:44:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Neilster

quote:

...August/September of 1948


Eh? When I last played WiF, the turns were Jul/Aug and Sep/Oct. Have they changed?

Cheers, Neilster


Oops,[:(] July/August 1948. ---- But did you catch all the other mistakes I have intentionally made?[:D][:D][:D]




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: optional rules (8/30/2006 8:03:53 AM)

After this post I just have 1 optional rule writeup left to do.

=============================================================
[61][Intelligence][RAW 63 s. 22.1]
This optional rule tries to simulate some of the effects of intelligence operations run by the major powers during WW II. Many of them are now famous. Hence the difficulty in simulating this - hindsight is perfect. Therefore the game mechanisms mostly affect probabilities. Since any intelligence operation can end up acting as counter-intelligence, the net benefit depends on the amount of effort each side puts into intelligence operations.

This rule represents the full range of intelligence operations, from the normal information gathering that all military forces pursue diligently to the mammoth code breaking enterprises that the Poles, French, British, and later the Americans, engaged in.

The process here has 4 components: (1) intelligence operations, (2) transforming intelligence operations into die rolls and multiples, (3) determining which side has been successful in gathering intelligence, and (4) spending accumulated intelligence points.

Step 1 - Intelligence operations
There is 1 free intelligence operation given to each major power during the intelligence step, and more can be purchased at a cost of 1 build point for each additional intelligence operation. Intelligence operations are subject to gearing limits as a separate class. Note that since there are 5 Allied major powers and only 3 Axis major powers, the Allied side always gets 2 more free intelligence operations every turn (guess which side thinks this is a good optional rule to use?).

Step 2 - Intelligence operations => die rolls and multiples
Secondly, the players decide whether they are going to convert intelligence operations into die rolls or multiples. For the United States a single intelligence operation (IO) can be used to generate 2 die rolls or 2 multiples. For Germany and the Commonwealth a single IO can be converted into 2 die rolls or 1 multiple. All other major powers receive 1 die roll or 1 multiple for each IO. These decisions are make separately and secretly by each major power. Once everyone has entered their decisions, the program determines which side has been successful at gathering intelligence.

Step 3 - Determining which side gains intelligence points
The third step in the process is for each side to roll as many dice as they committed to in the second step. The highest die roll for each side is compared. The difference in the two die rolls is used to calculate the number of intelligence points the winning side receives. If the highest dice rolls were the same, the Allies are taken to have out rolled the Axis by 1. If a side rolls no dice, its highest die roll is a '0'. For each major power on the winning side, the Difference is multiplied by the number of multiples the major power committed to in the second step.

For example, it is Nov/Dec 1939. Italy, the USA and the USSR are neutral and can't attempt to gain intelligence points. Heinz has spent 1 German build point on intelligence operations. Together with his free intelligence operation, he has 2 Ios to convert into either die rolls or multiples. He could have: (a) 4 dice rolls, (b) a multiple of 2, or (c) 2 dice and a multiple of 1. Obviously ‘c’ is the best choice and he decides to buy 2 dice rolls and 1 multiple. Kasigi spends his free Japanese intelligence operation on a multiple (hoping to the German dice rolls win the competition for highest die rolled and he can then gain some intelligence points).

Jeremy has spent a Commonwealth build point on intelligence. He decides to roll 4 dice. Jeanne spends 3 French build points, all on multiples (4), while Ju-Ming spends a Chinese build point on a multiple and the free operation on a dice roll.

There are 2 Axis dice rolls and 5 Allied dice (4 for the CW and 1 for China). The highest Axis die is a '7' while the Allies inevitably roll a '10' as their highest die. Because they lost the die roll competition, the Axis get no intelligence points this turn. Since the Difference is 3 (10 - 7), China gains 3 intelligence points while France gets 12. Jeremy gains no intelligence points since he had no multiples.

Intelligence points can be accumulated from turn to turn and spent whenever the player wants. However, if a major power's home country (the UK only for the Commonwealth) is conquered, or a Vichy government installed, then during the peace step that major power loses all accumulated intelligence points and the conquering major power gains half of them.

Step 4, Spending intelligence points

You can spend your intelligence points during any turn. Simply announce the expenditure at the appropriate time and deduct the points spent from your accumulated total. You can't spend intelligence points in an impulse if you are surprised in that impulse. If both sides want to spend intelligence points at the same time, the side with the initiative spends them first.

Here is how you can spend intelligence points (IP). Die roll modifiers and re-rolls are explained in more detail after this list.
∙ For 1 IP you can examine a random half of the entry markers of 1 other major power.
∙ For 1 IP you can examine one side’s (but not both) next initiative roll, but only if it has already been determined.
∙ For 3 IP you can randomly add 1 land, naval or aircraft unit to your force pool from next year's builds. See Rushed Research below for more details.
∙ For 3 IP you can secretly roll for the next weather (or learn what the die roll for the next weather is, if it is already determined).
∙ For 3 IP you can move a randomly chosen entry marker from either US entry pool to the other or from either US tension pool to the other. See US Entry Marker below for more details.
∙ For 5 IP you can secretly roll the next initiative roll. See Secret Initiative Rolls below for more details.
∙ For 5 IP you can add 1 to any die roll.
∙ For 15 IP you can re-roll 1 die.
∙ For X IP you can subtract half of another major power's intelligence points. X is determined by a die roll. See Counter-intelligence below for more details.
∙ For X IP you can give X/2 intelligence points to any other active major power on your side. For example, you spent 10 IP to give an ally 5 IP.

You can modify or re-roll any die/dice roll, whether it's yours or your opponent's. If it's a combat roll, one of your units or hexes must be involved in the combat.

If you want to modify a die/dice roll, you must announce this before the die/dice are rolled (side with the initiative deciding first). However, you decide after rolling whether to add 1, subtract 1, or apply no modifier to the result.

Both sides can spend points to modify the same roll. A net modifier of less than -1 is -1, and a net modifier of more than +1 is +1.

If you want to re-roll any dice, you must announce this after the die/dice are rolled but before any other action occurs. If you do demand a re-roll, all dice are re-rolled. Re-rolled dice cannot be re-rolled a second time.

Rushed Research adds units to your force pools and represents rushing research into new weapons models. You can add a unit even if your force pools are not empty. You decide whether you want to add a land, aircraft or naval unit. A unit is randomly chosen from the type you designate. If none of the type you designate (land, aircraft, or naval unit) is available in the next year's units, one is randomly chosen from the following year, and so on.

You can only move a US Entry Marker from one pool to another during the US entry step after all US entry rolls. Any major power can do this, provided there is a marker available to be moved.

Secret Initiative Rolls are when you secretly roll the next initiative roll. The sweetness of this choice is that you can decide after rolling whether it is yours or your opponent's roll! Of course, if one of you has already rolled the initiative for the next turn's roll, you won't have any choice. Pre-determined dice rolls can still be modified or re-rolled by spending intelligence points though.

Counter-intelligence is an attempt to subtract half another major power's intelligence points. You roll a die and lose that many of your intelligence points. If you don't have enough, you lose what you have but don't get the benefit. If you have enough, reduce another major power's accumulated points by half.
=============================================================
[73][Fog Of War][CWIF addition]
This optional rule was available in CWIF but will not be added to MWIF until product 2.
=============================================================
[74][Limited View Production][CWIF addition]
This optional rule was available in CWIF but will not be added to MWIF until product 2.
=============================================================
[77][Add Chinese Cities][CWIF addition]
This optional rule adds more cities in China. The purpose behind doing this was to provide Chinese units with (primarily) more supply sources and (secondarily) better defensive terrain. Although the changes were made reluctantly and with quite a bit of discussion over a period of months by WIF players, I feel this option should be available to accommodate the increased number of hexes the Chinese player has to defend when using the European map scale in China. Numerous other terrain changes were made in combination with these city additions, since the sheer number of hexes in China increased by times 6.

Using this optional rule adds 16 cities in China. Under control of the Communist Chinese are: Ningsia,, Sining, Tianshui, and Yennan. Under control of the Nationalist Chinese are: Tungkwan, Nanyang, Ankang, Ichang, Nanchang, Chihkiang, Hengyang, and Kweilin. And, lastly, under control of the Japanese are: Kaifeng, Suchow, Paoting, and Wuhsing.
=============================================================
[79][Leaders][Leaders in Flames]
This optional rule will not be implemented for MWIF product I.





Froonp -> RE: optional rules (8/30/2006 1:06:50 PM)

quote:

(1) I remember during the WiFCon 2005 seeing the latest Naval O-Chit rules in action at another table. It turned out to be a bit of a dud - but that was Pablo's bad luck on the dice.

I don't like the latest Naval OC, I prefered the old, and I would have prefered if the game gave the choice between the 2 variations of the OC.
Steve, do you think that MWiF could give the player the choice between the 2 Naval OC, the old and the "new" ?
After all, the old OC is already coded in MWiF.

quote:

(3) The CWiF extended game option will not make a lot of sense unless you are playing with the WiF/AiF/PatiF "Supergame" rules, but of course they will not be implemented in MWiF. Otherwise, they just mean the Allies have three more years to beat the Axis to bits.

Yes, I agree.
I played a CWiF 1939 Campaign up to end of 1946 once, and the endgame was boring because there was nothing left to produce.
This is the reason why I was talking Steve to introduce the additional aircrafts & ships of AiF & PoliF & PatiF (taking only the latest), because that makes units to produce up to 1950, but he does not want.
It is common practice, and it is the way ADG says it should be played, to add AiF, PoliF and PatiF counters to regular WiF FE campaigns for players who own them.




Froonp -> RE: optional rules (8/30/2006 1:54:06 PM)

quote:

Step 1 - Intelligence operations
There is 1 free intelligence operation given to each major power during the intelligence step, and more can be purchased at a cost of 1 build point for each additional intelligence operation. Intelligence operations are subject to gearing limits as a separate class. Note that since there are 5 Allied major powers and only 3 Axis major powers, the Allied side always gets 2 more free intelligence operations every turn (guess which side thinks this is a good optional rule to use?).

Only Active Major Powers can attempt to gather intelligence

quote:

(...)

∙ For 5 IP you can add 1 to any die roll.

No, For 5 IP you can add +1, 0 or -1 to any die roll.

quote:

(...)

∙ For X IP you can give X/2 intelligence points to any other active major power on your side. For example, you spent 10 IP to give an ally 5 IP.

This is not it.
If I read what you wrote, by spending 9 IP I would give an ally 5 IP, which is wrong.
If you want to give X points, you spend 2X points, which is slightly different.

quote:

(...)

Secret Initiative Rolls are when you secretly roll the next initiative roll. The sweetness of this choice is that you can decide after rolling whether it is yours or your opponent's roll! Of course, if one of you has already rolled the initiative for the next turn's roll, you won't have any choice. Pre-determined dice rolls can still be modified or re-rolled by spending intelligence points though.

There's one thing that may seem unclear here.
If you are in a Turn where a side has bonuses to the Initiative die roll, are those bonuses included or not in this Secret Initiative Rolls. You know, you can be at +2 Axis, +1 Axis, neutral, +1 Allied or +2 Allied.

The key IMHO is in the terms here. This is a Secret Initiative Roll, so it is further modified by the Initiative modifier. So, if the Allied are at +2 for this turn, if they spend 5 points in Secret Initiative Roll and roll for example a 5, this means that it is either a 5 for the Axis or a 7 for the Allied.

This said, this option is a great way in 1944-1945 to really really chose who plays first each turn, by wisely letting the Axis play first in the Winters to climb at +2 Allied, and then get all the spring, summer and fall playing first. Playing first is great for many things :
- mainly because you firt first, you bomb first.
- you see the weather first, so you can take advantage of it.
- because you often play an impulse more than your opponent, sometimes resulting in what we call a flip-flop, that is you play last, and next turn you play first, so you play twice in a row.




mlees -> RE: optional rules (8/30/2006 5:01:32 PM)

quote:

No, For 5 IP you can add +1, 0 or -1 to any die roll.


I haven't finished my morning coffee yet.

Why would you spend the points to add +0 to a roll?

Just to get rid of the IP's?




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