Longest DEI have held out (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945



Message


niceguy2005 -> Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 6:18:35 PM)

Not counting Timor, I'm curious what is the longest the DEI have held out in PBEM games. It seems to me that many Japanese players are slower than I would be finishing off the Dutch. Also, what is the quickest that anyone has completed this conquest?





aletoledo -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 6:57:40 PM)

I usually finish off the dutch in febuary 42. Timor in my current PBEM was too fortified for me to take at all though.




rtrapasso -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 7:32:01 PM)

It's still holding out in "Fear and Loathing" AAR - and they are almost into August 1942. i suspect that it will NOT fall (well, not entirely...)




denisonh -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 7:32:30 PM)

Should rename thread "Longest time Japanese Player put off taking DEI".




niceguy2005 -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 7:41:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: denisonh

Should rename thread "Longest time Japanese Player put off taking DEI".

True, the Japanese player is in the drivers seat. But it also depends on how hard the allied player fights for it. If the Allies evacuate everything it will fall a lot sooner obviously




niceguy2005 -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 7:42:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

It's still holding out in "Fear and Loathing" AAR - and they are almost into August 1942. i suspect that it will NOT fall (well, not entirely...)

Yep, Im thoroughly enjoying that AAR. In one of my PBEMS it is mid April and Java is about to fall, I'm sure Palmebang won't be far behind.




Nikademus -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 7:43:34 PM)

seems to me that the Timor gambit just provides the Japan player with an easier option vs. Northern Oz. [&:] [&:]




Feinder -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 7:54:06 PM)

I tried fortifying Timor with in my PBEM game vs. Erstad. Didn't do me a bit of good. Timor simply got pummelled by every bombardment TF and LBA in the SRA. It took him maybe an extra month, but it Timor still succombed to the Japanese might.

I won't do that again.

North Oz really isn't threatened at this point (10-42), but "Fortress Timor", wasn't.

-F-




Nikademus -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 7:56:42 PM)

Kind of what i was figuring too. Timor's rough terrain makes it attractive for a ground slugfest but only if the japanese navy and airforce allow it to be one. Pummeling the bases with air and sea forces is exactly what i'd do to counter such an aggressive move by the Allied player. Fighting in the enemy's backyard is never advisable unless your holding all the cards.

then again, i usually hit Timor first as a prelude to taking Java. (pincer movement)




Elladan -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 8:37:36 PM)

The key to holding any part od DEI seems to be a reinforcement with troops from Malaya and possibly some other places. Do you have any plan for efficient evacuation of Malaya/Singapore ? That means without excessive losses in shipping and with good part of ground forces intact. Is it ever worth a try?




niceguy2005 -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 8:38:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I tried fortifying Timor with in my PBEM game vs. Erstad. Didn't do me a bit of good. Timor simply got pummelled by every bombardment TF and LBA in the SRA. It took him maybe an extra month, but it Timor still succombed to the Japanese might.

I won't do that again.

North Oz really isn't threatened at this point (10-42), but "Fortress Timor", wasn't.

-F-

This is what I saw happening. Seems to me that Timor is a no man's land. I like it when the Japanese stack lots of planes and troops there for me to bomb from my nice safe, nearly malaria free bases in N. Oz.

In fact, in my first PBEM game I repositioned my forces from Timor to Java. I like this strategy and would probably do it again.




niceguy2005 -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 8:40:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Do you have any plan for efficient evacuation of Malaya/Singapore ? That means without excessive losses in shipping and with good part of ground forces intact. Is it ever worth a try?


Yes, the Batavia express works great...that's a FT TF from Batavia to Sing. But I don't like to pull too many troops out of Sing early. Everyday that Sing stands is HUGE for the allies. I usually rush at the end of the seige to pull out whatever survivors I can - though some consider this a little gamey.




Nikademus -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 8:45:02 PM)

I never evac. I fight to the death. Make the invader pay. Besides, a good Japan player will make you pay for every AP/AK you try to sneak into the hot zones. (I know i do!)






Ron Saueracker -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 10:11:09 PM)

December 42 in my PBEM and I still hold half of Java.[:)]




Andy Mac -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/2/2006 11:02:55 PM)

In one game Java held until June 43 and had a large proportion of the IJA there just long enough for my CW army to land on Malaya and secure Singapore !!!

It was an early game and we both made mistakes




BLUESBOB -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/3/2006 12:35:10 AM)

It's currently June 27, 1942 in the PBEM I'm playing, and I still hold Maumere, Waingapu, Kendari, Amboina, and, of course, Timor. Once the Japs tried landing at Amboina. A surface fleet caught a Jap TF flat-footed there, and sank five DD's, an AK, and a PC. I lost the Canberra. He landed regardless, and I fought for it with less than a 1000 troops, with support from 48 C-47's and 48 B-17's in Darwin. After several weeks of steady fighting, the Japs escaped on some APD's (I assume). I believe he landed at least two NLF's, but I'm not positive. It's been the Dutch forces shining moment in my campaign so far.




niceguy2005 -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/3/2006 1:33:36 AM)

Impressive Ron
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

December 42 in my PBEM and I still hold half of Java.[:)]





niceguy2005 -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/3/2006 1:34:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

I never evac. I fight to the death. Make the invader pay. Besides, a good Japan player will make you pay for every AP/AK you try to sneak into the hot zones. (I know i do!)




He means he makes his troops fight...the bunny runs like h#$&. [:'(]




niceguy2005 -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/3/2006 1:36:01 AM)

Obviously several players are making long campaigns out of DEI, is that because JPN isn't pushing hard enough?

Still haven't heard from the JPN fanboys. HOw quickly can DEI be taken?




Nemo121 -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/3/2006 2:14:13 AM)

If the Japanese player is willing to give up operations elsewhere then all of the DEI ( excepting a couple of unimportant places in Sumatra) could be the Japanese player's by the end of December 1942. If it is desired to capture the DEI resources intact then it will prove essential to commit the battleline ( or at least a very large portion of it) to bombardment of the defenders ( thus robbing them of the engineers that tend to sabotage the oilfields, resources etc.)


If operating under the assumption that British and Dutch forces would not attack Japanese task forces at sea until their aggressive intent was confirmed ( which can only be conclusively done by allowing them to land) then the important areas in DEI ( areas rich in oil and resources AND those areas from which it is possible to easily bomb/interdict these resource/oil sources) can be taken by the end of December with the committment of 6 Independent Brigades, the battleline, 2 aviation regiments, 1 parachute regiment, 6 to 8 BFs ( depending on the amount of fighter cover you want for your convoys) plus 4 or 5 NLFs/SNLFs to take Timor etc quickly. No more than 4 Sentais of Oscar would be required to essentially neutralise Singapore/Batavian aerial strike capabilities.

Obviously in this instance the capture of the DEI would have to be part of a wider plan both supporting and being supported by the attacks in Malaysia and the isolation of Allied forces in the Philippines such that the committment of a small number of Zero and Betty Daitais within the DEI AOA but tasked with supporting these attacks would be extremely beneficial.



If Japanese forces are assumed to be able to come no closer than 300 miles from Allied bases (excepting in areas where they have land or carrier-based air cover) it should still be possible to take the entirety of the DEI by mid-January by utilising a few more Zero Daitais and a viral method of expansion ( e.g.) transports land at Mendano. Major forces are some 400 miles east of the Mendano landing. Once this occurs these forces can, within 3 to 4 days, make their way to Kendari, Amboina, Sorong etc, land, establish airbases and refueling/replenishment depots for the battleline. Utilising the battleline with LRCAP to absorb bomber attacks Batavia could be quickly reduced and 3 Regiments landed. This will ensure the securing of Java itself. Once that is done it will be a simple matter to close the vice by taking Southern Borneo and escorting troops to Palembang/Teloekboetang under cover of the battleline. It is, of course, assumed that Singapore will have been rendered largely impotent by army bomber strikes from the Malaysian peninsula.


I know that may seem fast but I think the potential is there. I missed the timescale of the first option outlines above by a fortnight because of some newbie mistakes in my invasion planning but definitely it could have been wrapped up in 3 weeks instead of 5 and I think that a more temporally spaced phasing than occured in my game could actually accelerate the capture of DEI so that even without benefit of any first turn warps etc all important areas would fall before mid-January.


So, 2.5 weeks with the benefit of nil Allied reaction until landings are confirmed and no more than 5 weeks ( probably as little as 4) if what seems to be the common house rule of requiring Japanese TFs to be more than 300 miles from Allied bases on December 7th is required.

The rate of loss during this time will be very high but overall losses will be significantly lower than for a long drawn-out campaign. Certainly a long drawn-out campaign will attrit the Allied player to a great extent also but Allied productive capacity makes the attrition of any of their resources save carriers, battleships, submarines, whole combat units ( with no fragments for rebuilding) and four-engined bombers, irrelevant and thus the longer campaign has nothing to recommend it except a smaller RATE of casualties... which is an entirely illusory "benefit" to the Japanese player.




niceguy2005 -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/3/2006 2:39:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

If the Japanese player is willing to give up operations elsewhere then all of the DEI ( excepting a couple of unimportant places in Sumatra) could be the Japanese player's by the end of December 1942. If it is desired to capture the DEI resources intact then it will prove essential to commit the battleline ( or at least a very large portion of it) to bombardment of the defenders ( thus robbing them of the engineers that tend to sabotage the oilfields, resources etc.)


If operating under the assumption that British and Dutch forces would not attack Japanese task forces at sea until their aggressive intent was confirmed ( which can only be conclusively done by allowing them to land) then the important areas in DEI ( areas rich in oil and resources AND those areas from which it is possible to easily bomb/interdict these resource/oil sources) can be taken by the end of December with the committment of 6 Independent Brigades, the battleline, 2 aviation regiments, 1 parachute regiment, 6 to 8 BFs ( depending on the amount of fighter cover you want for your convoys) plus 4 or 5 NLFs/SNLFs to take Timor etc quickly. No more than 4 Sentais of Oscar would be required to essentially neutralise Singapore/Batavian aerial strike capabilities.

Obviously in this instance the capture of the DEI would have to be part of a wider plan both supporting and being supported by the attacks in Malaysia and the isolation of Allied forces in the Philippines such that the committment of a small number of Zero and Betty Daitais within the DEI AOA but tasked with supporting these attacks would be extremely beneficial.



If Japanese forces are assumed to be able to come no closer than 300 miles from Allied bases (excepting in areas where they have land or carrier-based air cover) it should still be possible to take the entirety of the DEI by mid-January by utilising a few more Zero Daitais and a viral method of expansion ( e.g.) transports land at Mendano. Major forces are some 400 miles east of the Mendano landing. Once this occurs these forces can, within 3 to 4 days, make their way to Kendari, Amboina, Sorong etc, land, establish airbases and refueling/replenishment depots for the battleline. Utilising the battleline with LRCAP to absorb bomber attacks Batavia could be quickly reduced and 3 Regiments landed. This will ensure the securing of Java itself. Once that is done it will be a simple matter to close the vice by taking Southern Borneo and escorting troops to Palembang/Teloekboetang under cover of the battleline. It is, of course, assumed that Singapore will have been rendered largely impotent by army bomber strikes from the Malaysian peninsula.


I know that may seem fast but I think the potential is there. I missed the timescale of the first option outlines above by a fortnight because of some newbie mistakes in my invasion planning but definitely it could have been wrapped up in 3 weeks instead of 5 and I think that a more temporally spaced phasing than occured in my game could actually accelerate the capture of DEI so that even without benefit of any first turn warps etc all important areas would fall before mid-January.


So, 2.5 weeks with the benefit of nil Allied reaction until landings are confirmed and no more than 5 weeks ( probably as little as 4) if what seems to be the common house rule of requiring Japanese TFs to be more than 300 miles from Allied bases on December 7th is required.

The rate of loss during this time will be very high but overall losses will be significantly lower than for a long drawn-out campaign. Certainly a long drawn-out campaign will attrit the Allied player to a great extent also but Allied productive capacity makes the attrition of any of their resources save carriers, battleships, submarines, whole combat units ( with no fragments for rebuilding) and four-engined bombers, irrelevant and thus the longer campaign has nothing to recommend it except a smaller RATE of casualties... which is an entirely illusory "benefit" to the Japanese player.

Very good analysis. If I understand you right, this requires going around Malaya. I'm not sure I would do that. No point in letting those forces escape.




Nemo121 -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/3/2006 2:44:59 AM)

Going around Malaysia? Sorry I don't understand if you mean not putting ground troops into Malaysia or moving troop convoys past Singapore and up the eastern edge of Sumatra?




pasternakski -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/3/2006 3:28:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
a more temporally spaced phasing ... could actually accelerate ... even without benefit of any first turn warps

She won't stand the strain much longer, Captain.




Nemo121 -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/3/2006 9:38:58 AM)

[:D]




Greco, Thomas A -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/6/2006 2:26:48 AM)

I have sucessfully held all of Java and all of Sumatra south of Palembang in at least five PBEM games against accomplished and high profile opponents. I do not mean that I held them into 1942. I mean that I held them until the end of the war or until IJ surrender. I call the defense "Napoleans Hat". It stopped working in the CHS games.




Mynok -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/6/2006 6:06:59 AM)


Japan needs to take a two-pronged route. Singapore needs to be taken before Sumatra is attempted, and Borneo, Celebes and the Amboina area needs to be secured before Java is attempted. Going for anything else before those areas are secured is foolhardy.

Speed should never be the goal of a Japanese conquest of the SRA. It is counterproductive. Steady, methodical advance will still conquer the needed bases, and they will be in better shape because the engineers will have been bombarded into oblivion before the base is taken. Remember, Japan has six months of reserves. That means I don't need to land convoys of oil/resources in Japan until May.

I use every bit of that time to ensure that as few Allied ships/troops escape as possible, and that they destroy as little as possible on their way to nirvana.

Nemo is correct: the Japanese BB's must be in the SRA until the major oil bases are captured. Their primary job is to bombard for five months.




Ron Saueracker -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/6/2006 6:16:01 AM)

Contrary to much opinion, I believe after 4 successful attempts holding the DEI in Stock, Lemurs and CHS variants that only a holding force need be expended at Singapore and Luzon initially but make sure they stay neutralized by air. Take them later...go for Burma, Sumatra, Borneo, Moluccas, Celebes, Bali, Java. Timor is not much more than a graveyard for whoever holds it.




Nemo121 -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/6/2006 8:01:08 AM)

Any detail on the operational details of Napoleon's Hat?




TommyG -> RE: Longest DEI have held out (5/6/2006 7:01:50 PM)

sent info by PM




Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
0.59375