Mining enemy bases (Full Version)

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zuikaku -> Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 10:58:56 AM)

How to do this? Mine warfare TFs just refuses to lay mines in enemy base hex, no matter if the base is defended, undefended, if I escort mine warfare TFs or not. Yes, I set them on retire. What's the catch? Anyone knows?



michaelm75au -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 12:23:56 PM)

Check that the DM/MLs have mines onboard - a number under ammo.
After they lay them, the mine ammo will be a red 0.

Michael



zuikaku -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 1:14:35 PM)

yes, they have the ammo. and they can (and do) mine every hex other then ones with enemy base.



Charles2222 -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 1:48:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuikaku

yes, they have the ammo. and they can (and do) mine every hex other then ones with enemy base.


In previous versions (up to 1.602) I have been able to mine Allied bases with the 4 IJN mine subs. The only thing I can think of that you might not be doing, that I am, is setting the speed on cruise. I've never heard of that making a difference, but then you might be using allied ships as well.



zuikaku -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 1:54:03 PM)

My version is 1.60. Sub minelaying works fine. Surface minelaying don't work for enemy base hexes only. I tried cruise, full and mission speed, all with same results. I heve only MLs in the TF. Is that a problem?



MarcA -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 1:58:52 PM)

I have no problems with allied sub minelaying missions to enemy bases, though I have not tried it with ML's or DML's.

I don't believe speed is an issue. If you check 6.1.9.9 of the manual, mine laying TF's within 25 hexes of destination will move at max speed other wise at cruise and they should act like bobmbardment TF's, arriving at night and sprinting away from the hex after laying. It does say they will avoid enemy carriers and surface combat. Could be that your TF's are just avoiding potential combat.



mc3744 -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 2:04:25 PM)

With the Allies I've mined several enemy bases with DM and ML under 1.60. I have not yet tried with 1.80.

Make sure you have 'retire' allowed (they won't lay mines with 'no retirement')



zuikaku -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 2:05:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mantill

I have no problems with allied sub minelaying missions to enemy bases, though I have not tried it with ML's or DML's.

I don't believe speed is an issue. If you check 6.1.9.9 of the manual, mine laying TF's within 25 hexes of destination will move at max speed other wise at cruise and they should act like bobmbardment TF's, arriving at night and sprinting away from the hex after laying. It does say they will avoid enemy carriers and surface combat. Could be that your TF's are just avoiding potential combat.


That's impossible! They even refuse to minelay the empty enemy base deep behind my lines (Iollo on the PHI). I play as Japan vs. AI. I've sent mine ops TF from Noumeia to Auckland escorted by carrier group and surface combat group. They all replenished with AOs. They sprinted to Auckland, but didn't mined it. There were no any enemy ships present (they fled due to my CV's). I can still use subs to mine auckland, but this is more effective and devastating way... when it works...



Charles2222 -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 2:07:49 PM)

I must say that sounds a bit peculiar, as I never thought of mining enemy bases with surface ships, because that's usually what the enemy does to their ports. Perhaps the designers didn't think anybody would want to do such a thing?



zuikaku -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 3:22:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I must say that sounds a bit peculiar, as I never thought of mining enemy bases with surface ships, because that's usually what the enemy does to their ports. Perhaps the designers didn't think anybody would want to do such a thing?


What about with mining minor enemy bases to prevent them from build up? What about dissrupting traffic in busy ports? manuals says nothing about enemy base hexes are excepted from mining.



Arkady -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 3:48:39 PM)

strange, i'm mining everything around, friendly or enemy bases without problems

try to be more specific, what ships (types and names) you have in your Mine Warfare TF, what is setting for retirement, what is target and what is home port, current location etc



m10bob -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 5:01:52 PM)

When I too had problems with ML's doing anything, I just laid the mines by plane instead. (An asterik looking device will show on the map.)
So far, with mines in the water for maybe 3 months, I have never seen anything actually hit a mine??Don't know what the odds are of hitting them, but the color of that "mine indicator" changes, and I don't know the color significance either.
I have enemy ports with a yellow asterisk, and one with what looks like dark grey??



zuikaku -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 5:33:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arkady

strange, i'm mining everything around, friendly or enemy bases without problems

try to be more specific, what ships (types and names) you have in your Mine Warfare TF, what is setting for retirement, what is target and what is home port, current location etc



I don't have the game here on the job, but it's a japanese mine warfare TF. It's a fast mine warfare TF (all mls are able to go at 15 kts at least). There are approx 20 MLs in the TF. There are 4 classes of them at least in that TF (I don't see how that coul'd be a problem). There are no other ship types in that TF. Home base is Noumeia (port size 9 + MLE, 180k of supplies, naval HQ). Current target is SUVA. Retirement allowed. This turn it is replenishing halfway there from AOs. there is also an escort SC TF set to follow mine warfare TF (Mutsu, Nagato, Ashigara, Aoba, Kako, Kinugasa) . When it replenish next turn, i'll set the target for Suva. And I will not get the message (TF XX will commit mine ops warfare in hex xx), TF will only proceed there and not drop their mines. All the mines are still onboard, they didn't drop them in replenishment hex, since I've set mine ops TF to follow SC TF untill replenishment. Onlyy when they both replenish, i set SC TF to follow and mine ops TF to go to Suva. But, nothing works. Have anyone actually mined a base with surface TF (not subs or airplanes) playing Japanese side?



Mike Solli -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 5:41:24 PM)

I've mined many bases with Japanese MLs in both 1.6 and 1.8. I have had difficulty, on occasion, attempting to mine a hex that was beyond the range of the MLs (beyond their max range). This usually happened with the short range MLs. It sounds like you're doing everything right. The only thing that I keep focusing on is the refueling prior to laying the mines. Can the TF reach the target hex before refueling? If so, do that and then refuel on the way back. Maybe that will work.



zuikaku -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 5:51:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I've mined many bases with Japanese MLs in both 1.6 and 1.8. I have had difficulty, on occasion, attempting to mine a hex that was beyond the range of the MLs (beyond their max range). This usually happened with the short range MLs. It sounds like you're doing everything right. The only thing that I keep focusing on is the refueling prior to laying the mines. Can the TF reach the target hex before refueling? If so, do that and then refuel on the way back. Maybe that will work.



I actually refuel them before and on the way back. But they also don't want to mine New Hebrides which are well in range (7 hexes from Noumeia). I'm not using those small MLs which have range of only 600 NMs...



siRkid -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 7:49:38 PM)

Just a thought, do you have any mine sweepers in the TF. I don't know if it will have an impact but it might confuse the AI routines.



DaveConn -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 8:42:32 PM)

[edited to delete incorrect response]



Mike Solli -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 8:45:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveConn

I think the key is above: "Retirement allowed". Status must be patrol/do not retire to lay mines, right?

--Dave



I respectfully disagree. The TF must be set to retirement allowed for it to lay mines.



Nikademus -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 9:21:49 PM)

its do not retire when your laying mines in your home port (+ hit undock)



Mike Solli -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/3/2006 9:45:13 PM)

That's cool Nik. I never could figure out how to mine a home port. Thanks![:D]



FeurerKrieg -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/4/2006 11:29:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

I've mined many bases with Japanese MLs in both 1.6 and 1.8. I have had difficulty, on occasion, attempting to mine a hex that was beyond the range of the MLs (beyond their max range). This usually happened with the short range MLs. It sounds like you're doing everything right. The only thing that I keep focusing on is the refueling prior to laying the mines. Can the TF reach the target hex before refueling? If so, do that and then refuel on the way back. Maybe that will work.


I can confirm this as well. I've used IJN MLs to lay mines at enemy bases in two different games. When I later invaded one of those bases the mines did a great job of knocking out a few of my own ships. [8|]



Charles2222 -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/4/2006 12:21:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuikaku


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I must say that sounds a bit peculiar, as I never thought of mining enemy bases with surface ships, because that's usually what the enemy does to their ports. Perhaps the designers didn't think anybody would want to do such a thing?


What about with mining minor enemy bases to prevent them from build up? What about dissrupting traffic in busy ports? manuals says nothing about enemy base hexes are excepted from mining.


I understood that the only way you would do this would be with a new minor base, but even then somebody must not want to keep that base in the least if they allow a surface ship to do this. As far as busy ports go, that's exactly the sort of place you wouldn't send a surface ship to lay mines, because with all that activity you have to expect very serious reprisal. Yes, it doesn't seem like most people would think of not allowing surface ships to lay mines at enemy ports, as you wouldn't expect normally that people would expect they would want to do it. To me it's an adage situation. If you're going to come in with a sizeable fleet, thereby to protect the minelayers from counterattack, in my mind the base is pretty much already yours. So if the plan was to do such a thing and then pull back it amounts to letting the enemy have control again. All the while realizing that you could probably take it at any time, which, if that were the case, means that you've just mined a position you ought to be possessing instead (mining against yourself). Of course, even having done all of that, it still would work to that port's protection if it is indeed in your hands later, because any enemy action will still have to go through those mines. I don't know, somehow mining a port in the enemy's hands with surface ships seems to defeat the purpose to me, because it takes so much effort to reasonably get such an operation off for especially the bases that haven't just sprouted up yesterday. I figure the best way to harass an enemy base mine-wise is to use subs for that, as they need nothing to accompany them to pull it off with relative safety. Naturally an really busy base is going to be more inclined to danger for even the sub type operation.



el cid again -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/4/2006 12:43:38 PM)

quote:

If you check 6.1.9.9 of the manual, mine laying TF's within 25 hexes of destination will move at max speed other wise at cruise and they should act like bobmbardment TF's, arriving at night and sprinting away from the hex after laying.



Which is of course pretty silly. Mine planting is a very time consuming art - and if you don't do it carefully - you get a minefield you better stay out of/away from. A properly surveyed mine planting operation only lays a very small number of mines in a day - and would not attempt it at night.

The problem is the game does not understand the difference between different kinds of minefields. All minefields are de facto defensive minefields - they don't hurt friendly vessels except by accident (low chance). These need to take a long time to lay. Mines laid by planes and dashing destroyer minelayers at night are offensive - meaning you cannot sail in those waters - they won't avoid friendly ships and you don't know where the mines are or are not.



zuikaku -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/4/2006 4:05:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22


quote:

ORIGINAL: zuikaku


quote:

ORIGINAL: Charles_22

I must say that sounds a bit peculiar, as I never thought of mining enemy bases with surface ships, because that's usually what the enemy does to their ports. Perhaps the designers didn't think anybody would want to do such a thing?


What about with mining minor enemy bases to prevent them from build up? What about dissrupting traffic in busy ports? manuals says nothing about enemy base hexes are excepted from mining.


I understood that the only way you would do this would be with a new minor base, but even then somebody must not want to keep that base in the least if they allow a surface ship to do this. As far as busy ports go, that's exactly the sort of place you wouldn't send a surface ship to lay mines, because with all that activity you have to expect very serious reprisal. Yes, it doesn't seem like most people would think of not allowing surface ships to lay mines at enemy ports, as you wouldn't expect normally that people would expect they would want to do it. To me it's an adage situation. If you're going to come in with a sizeable fleet, thereby to protect the minelayers from counterattack, in my mind the base is pretty much already yours. So if the plan was to do such a thing and then pull back it amounts to letting the enemy have control again. All the while realizing that you could probably take it at any time, which, if that were the case, means that you've just mined a position you ought to be possessing instead (mining against yourself). Of course, even having done all of that, it still would work to that port's protection if it is indeed in your hands later, because any enemy action will still have to go through those mines. I don't know, somehow mining a port in the enemy's hands with surface ships seems to defeat the purpose to me, because it takes so much effort to reasonably get such an operation off for especially the bases that haven't just sprouted up yesterday. I figure the best way to harass an enemy base mine-wise is to use subs for that, as they need nothing to accompany them to pull it off with relative safety. Naturally an really busy base is going to be more inclined to danger for even the sub type operation.




I planned to mine Cairns and Auckland. I do not intend to land there, only to hurt his ships where they feel quite safe. The idea was to also destroy any enemy ship that would put resistance while doing so. I think my plan is very good[:D] except the minelaying task force never does it's job [:@]



Arkady -> RE: Mining enemy bases (5/4/2006 5:18:23 PM)

try split this Minelaying TF to smaller ones...maybe there is a problem with only one ship that abort mining for others



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