Concerned with Passing... (Full Version)

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Magnum357 -> Concerned with Passing... (5/6/2006 3:29:57 AM)

I'm having some serious problems here with making Pass Plays. I've decided to go back to making American Rules Playbooks with a Custom League I'm creating, and I have some plays already drawn out on paper to be transfered to MaxFB, but its not going well. For some reason, whenever I make Pass Plays with complicated Reciever Routes, a lot of times the QB misses the Receiver quite often. For example, in some of my plays, I create a simple Slant Pattern or a pass pattern that heads troward the middle of the feild and it seems like that any passes that are thrown directly forward of the QB have a very good chance of missing even if there are hardly any Defenders in the Area. When Designing a "Clean Run" Pass Play (ie. in the PDS with no Defensive Opposition) the QB 9 times out of 10 will complete the pass to the Reciever, which is good, but I'm wondering if there are problems with the Passing game still.

David, I don't know if this is a bug or I need to just adjust the MainData.mdb values, but it just seems to me in my opinion that QB Passing has some clitches the more he throws forward down feild (ie. Straight Forward Parral to the length of the Feild). Passing to his Left seems ok, but sometimes (not as bad as passing Forward) Passing to his Right is not as accurate as Passing Left. Just thought I would let you know of my problems designing Passing plays.

And I'm using American Default rules to make these plays with.



Sonny -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/6/2006 2:16:17 PM)

I have troubles too with complicated pass routes. If I have trips to one side and they cross in the pattern it seems the QB never completes a pass to any of them - even if I only have one receiver looking for the ball.



Magnum357 -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/10/2006 1:36:58 AM)

After some recent work in trying to fix my problem, I think I noticed something. I decided to rework the plays that I did before and change the Pass Routes for each play. I decided to kind of copy some of the simple pass routes that the Stock plays in the game uses (a lot of simple straight lines). After setting many of my plays with simple straight line Pass Routes, the QB was passing to them much better then previously (hardly any overthrown passes for example).

David, I just wanted to let you know that I seriously think the game has problems with complicated pass routes. Even a simple "Quick out" or "Hitch" route has problems with the PDS and Quick Play games. I don't know if anyone else is having this problem (with higher end machines) but it is my opinion that Complicated Pass routes have difficulty being made with MaxFB.



David Winter -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/10/2006 2:26:20 AM)

At what point in these routes are you setting your look for pass flag to be true? Is it the first leg of the route, or the last leg of the route?

Where you set the players look for pass flag has a huge impact on how successful the pass is going to be. Setting the look for pass flag on at the first command point, then changing directions five times as the QB is in the throwing motion, is going to rarely result in a completed pass. The QB is throwing to a spot in front of the receiver at the time of the throw, if the receiver changes direction during the passing motion, or once the ball is in the air, it's not going to be a completed pass. The receivers are able to adjust to the ball a little bit (if they're moving in the same general direction) but they're not going to be able to make drastic adjustments.

I've had passing routes with up to 8 direction changes. With the look for pass flag set true on the last point, the passes were completed as expected.



22sec -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/10/2006 5:06:48 AM)

I have been setting the Look for Pass at the LOS, and have noticed on the complicated routes the QB missing WR.



jcd38 -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/10/2006 5:16:52 AM)

magnum/david

i was confused about when to set the "look for pass". what i did was put a "look for pass" at almost every point; begining with the first point and ending the last point with a "look for pass" and then usually a "stand". i also adjusted the receiver routes and the qb drops/wait commands to be more in tune with each other. part of my my reasoning was, depending on the defensive play, i.e. pass rush, the qb's timing would be affected, and he might check off or throw sooner or throw later.
anyway, i've done this for all the default plays; every player and every point. these plays combined with my adjusting the player ratings has started to produce some long completions, short passes and some other effects on a more realistic scale. my play results are starting to look very good. i'll post on fbmax my updated playbooks/maindata as soon as i tinker with them some more; i need to check them out more throughly.
i hope that helps you.



Marauders -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/10/2006 6:15:03 AM)

As David stated, the Look For Pass logic should not be set prior to a lot of cuts, because the quarterback will pass to a spot in line with what he reads. If the receiver runs all over after looking for the pass, he will often be missed.

There also has to be some timing on the play. A quarterback may have to be given some Wait For delay time prior to doing his Read logic so that he can read deeper routes. Sometimes just a half second will do, but timing matters.

In the real world, timing is a big factor in play design. Setting up a read progression is critical in making sure a play is dynamic and successful. Maximum-Football does reflect this.

Once the look for logic is set to true, it means the player can catch the ball without getting beaned in the back of the head, but it is best to get the receiver started on his pattern and timing when he needs to start looking for the ball.



David Winter -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/10/2006 7:19:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 21SEC

I have been setting the Look for Pass at the LOS, and have noticed on the complicated routes the QB missing WR.


This is to be expected. The look for pass flag should normally be on the last leg of the route or the pass will rarely be completed. Once the player is looking to receive a pass, if the QB sees him, he's going to throw to a spot infront of the receiver along the receivers current angle. If the receiver is changing direction (which slows him down as well as points him in the wrong direction) the QB will almost never hit him.

Marauders is correct in his post above. When it comes to timing up the play. You may also find that if you set your LFP flags to true on all receivers too far down field, the QB may never get enough time to throw the ball. He may have to take off with it or be sacked before any of them are ready to catch the ball.

I said it should normally be on the last leg of a route. But it's also possible to turn on and off the LFP flag on the same route. Lets say there are 5 command points in a route. You can turn on the LFP flag between points 0 and 2, then turn if off while the receiver makes a couple of hard cuts, then turn it on again from points 4 to 5. This means the QB will see the receiver looking for the pass right away if there is a hot route required. Otherwise, the QB will wait until the next point in that receivers route to throw the ball to him.



David Winter -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/10/2006 7:24:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jcd38

magnum/david

i was confused about when to set the "look for pass". what i did was put a "look for pass" at almost every point; begining with the first point and ending the last point with a "look for pass" and then usually a "stand".


You don't need to change that flag on every command point. Once the flag is set to a state at some point on the route, it stays in that state until you either change it to something else or the play ends.



Magnum357 -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/10/2006 11:46:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: David Winter

At what point in these routes are you setting your look for pass flag to be true? Is it the first leg of the route, or the last leg of the route?


David, in almost all of my Custom plays, I have the "look for pass" logic set at the very last Command point of the receiver route. I also read some of the other posts on this topic, some people are puting LFP Logic on all Command points, is this ok too do? I haven't tried this yet so I don't really know.

All I know is that some of my Receiver routes are getting hardly any completions. Mostly Slant routes, Out Routes (although they are a little better) and hitch Routes. all of these routes usually have only 3 command points and the LFP logic is set at the very last command point. At the moment, I have simple "Straight line" pass routes (ie. only 2 command points) with LFP logic at the end of the route and they seem too be getting better completions against defenses. If I go back too making Pass routes with more then 2 Command points (ie. Simple Line routes), what is the best way too make an effective pass route?



jcd38 -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/10/2006 3:35:55 PM)

david,

to clarify. for longer routes for example; 1st point "Move to Next Point"; 2nd point "Look for pass:True" and "Move to Next Point", 3rd Point "Move to Next Point", 4th Point "Stand" is what i would typically use and is ok. when you say the "Look for Pass" stays until i change it; does that mean a "Look for Pass: False" or any Last Statement command ends the "Look for Pass" logic; or will other any other commands end that state. thanks



Marauders -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/10/2006 7:08:30 PM)

quote:

when you say the "Look for Pass" stays until i change it; does that mean a "Look for Pass: False" or any Last Statement command ends the "Look for Pass" logic; or will other any other commands end that state. thanks


Once Look for Pass is True, it stays true until the end of the play. Look For Pass: False must be used to turn it off.

Keep in mind that Look For Pass must be logic prior to the Move To logic, or the game will never read the Look For Pass logic because it has already moved on to the next logic point.





jcd38 -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/10/2006 8:57:14 PM)

marauders,

thanks. my brain didn't catch the logic of true and false.[>:]



Marauders -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/10/2006 11:57:24 PM)

quote:

thanks. my brain didn't catch the logic of true and false


I just meant that other logic will not end that state, but logic that has Last Command logic, like Stand or Move To, will not allow the program to read it unless it is set prior to the Last Command logic.



jcd38 -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/11/2006 12:26:36 AM)

thanks. i got it. in my last post i was just joking about not catching it earlier. ya know, i had one of those temporary brain malfunctions.



Magnum357 -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/11/2006 2:13:03 AM)

Maurader and jcd38, thanks for the tips. I will try out those suggestions on LFP logic and see if I can get any better results with more complicated Pass Routes.



Marauders -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/11/2006 8:11:27 AM)

quote:

thanks. i got it. in my last post i was just joking about not catching it earlier. ya know, i had one of those temporary brain malfunctions.


Oh, all right. I thought maybe I was stating something that was so obvious that it looked condescending. I wasn't trying to make anyone look like he was having a brain freeze from too may ice slushies.

[sm=party-smiley-012.gif]



Deft -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/11/2006 3:50:33 PM)

Don't leave Look for Pass as your last command because the player will run in place and I have seen the QB have a hard time passing to him. Always follow a LFP command with a Move to Next Point.

Only use Stand commands when the route is intended to be stopped like a hitch route or a circle route for a HB. I wouldn't even use it in these cases because players have a harder time accelerating from a stand command than a wait for command.



Marauders -> RE: Concerned with Passing... (5/11/2006 6:58:47 PM)

quote:

Don't leave Look for Pass as your last command because the player will run in place and I have seen the QB have a hard time passing to him. Always follow a LFP command with a Move to Next Point.


... and use MOVE TO: END ZONE on deep routes.



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