The Uncertainty of War (Full Version)

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Wild Bill -> The Uncertainty of War (7/14/2000 11:08:00 PM)

Some of the problems I am seeing in the supposed "bugs" of SPWAW really aren't that at all, but actually could be some built in variables to produce the uncertainty of war. In the field, a commander always has unforseen problems. The plethora of difficulties that face him is phenomenal. There is so much more to combat than firing a weapon. We try to portray all the nuances of uncertainty with variables in the game that offer no guarantees. There are no guarantees in war. For me personally, the uncertainty factor is what makes a wargame fun and quite challenging. The commander in the field is forced to deal with unforseen problems, failures, lack of communication and a myriad of other possibilities. It would be nice to know that you have 3 batteries of 105s and no matter what happens, you will always have contact, they'll never run out of ammo and they will always fire on command and hit the target. Nice, but unrealistic. Totally. Commanders always bitch about what they did not have, could not get and what they needed but was unavailable. "Get me in contact with arty. I don't want to hear excuses. Fix that radio, corporal!" So I assume that is what is happening here, a bunch of disgruntled field commanders who did not get what they were promised. Guys, do you want a wargame with solid guarantees and 100% certainty. I don't really think that you do. Personally, I don't. Last night, I got my butt dragged all over the map by Sgt. Rock (David Heath). He pummeled me mercilessly with 88s and Tiger tanks. His brother, Danny, a newbie was the second Allied player (A 3 player TCP/IP game). Following his brother's advice, he moved into a valley (when do you listen to the enemy? - [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]) In one turn he lost five tanks, half of our tank force. Poor Danny! From that point on he just watched [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/mad.gif[/img] Now I was forced to fend of four Tigers, 2 88s, and a host of German SS engineers with a platoon of US engineers, and five Shermans. It wasn't pretty. I cashed in my reinforcement ticket (a new feature in SPWAW TCP/IP play) and purchased 2 Jumbos to help assuage the onrushing German tide. The reinforcements come in between one and three turns after you request them. Well, how nice it would have been to have gotten them on the first turn, but no...it took three turns to get them. As I waited, I died. By the time they arrived on the field, I had two Shermans left and the fight was over. So that is my bitch for the day. Why did I have to wait three turns for my reinforcements? You won't get everything promised. And not everything promised will be there when it is supposed to be. This is war, fellow gamers and we are forced to improvise. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Drake666 -> (7/14/2000 11:40:00 PM)

Got to agree with you their WB. Anything can happen in war, the best thing to do is adapt and overcome. Thats what I always do [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



McGib -> (7/14/2000 11:51:00 PM)

I'll agree with you on that WB. After 13 years in the service I know that "s**t happens". Sometimes its a good thing ... sometimes its not.



Wild Bill -> (7/14/2000 11:54:00 PM)

And doesn't it raise the level of excitement and suspense, fellas? Wouldn't have it any other way..well sometimes I would [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



stevew -> (7/15/2000 12:07:00 AM)

Hi Wild Bill : I also enjoy the uncertainty very much. But I think gamers love more the ability to control the preferences, which is why we have the new arty effective control there. But is it possible that gamers can have one more button to tune up/down the "out of contact" for the arty ? (I know there must be some boundary that gamers can not ask for everything. ;-D ) Thanks a lot for such a great game. Steve



Wild Bill -> (7/15/2000 12:13:00 AM)

It would be nice, Steve, a scale for artillery certainty, much as ammo limits, etc. I suppose it would be a good thing to add. But either way, yes or no, it does not hurt to ask. We have gleaned some pretty good ideas from your questions and comments. We may not get them all this time around, but you can believe that all of this is a help to us. I guess you could say, "Ask for everything, take what you can get." Life is kind of like that too, isn't it? Philosophy 101 - closed for the day Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Beantown -> (7/15/2000 12:18:00 AM)

Wild Bill, I agree with you. One of the best things that has come from wargaming for me personally has been experiencing failure. This may sound strange to some, but if one always can 'play God' on the battlefield, it not only cuts into the realism factor, it never teaches one to experiment with new tactics. I've learned far more by losing to humans and computer opponents alike than I ever have simply tuning the game to the point where I can have total control over every nuance. It has made me a better player (I hope) and has additonally provided me with insights into the history that I read. The moves you guys are making are long overdue in computer wargames, and keep up the great work!



Wild Bill -> (7/15/2000 12:58:00 AM)

Well said Beantown...even the part about us [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Seriously, you have a valid point. What is the saying, "You learn by your mistakes." Thankfully a quick restart and we're off again. So sad that so many guys on the real battlefield could not do that. I do hope in some way we honor them by our hobby. Let that too be a motivation in wargaming, remembering the real heroes! Now I'm waxing nostalgic, so I'll quit. WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Nikademus -> (7/15/2000 1:03:00 AM)

agree totally with ya WB which is why i've tried to focus on some issues that tend to affect the game 'in general' or perhaps the better word is 'frequently' hence i focused on issues like the Tiger I mantlet question (because such a rating would cause balance issues in tank vs tank) and the general HE factor of direct fire artillery. Granted on the last one opinions vary but from what i've read most seem to agree on that issue. In case i hav'nt said it recently, you guys are the BEST keep up the good work :-)



Tankhead -> (7/15/2000 1:22:00 AM)

I agree with you Wild Bill. The fog of war is a fact of real wars. To be out of contact with arty and some of your troops is a normal thing in the heat of battle. I like the way SPWaW is at the moment you learn to addapt to overcome with with what you have at the moment, makes you a better commander change of plan "a must" to overcome your enemy, one never knows what to expect from is enemy, even more so againts a human opponent "unpredictable" If one would always have what he requested it would make the game "how should I say this" like many other games out there nothing special boring, that is what seperates SPWaW apart from the rest of the games "Special" Keep up the good work as far I'm concern everything in the game so far is fine with me. Tankhead ------------------ Rick Cloutier [email]rcclout@telusplanet.net[/email] Coordinator: Tankhead's SPWAW Resources http://sites.netscape.net/rcclout



rexmonday -> (7/15/2000 1:29:00 AM)

In the past I've posted a couple of messages about bugs/features. All I can say is that the response has been amazing. Some of the problems that Matrix have sorted out have been flaws or errors that were with us since SP1. I admire SSI for releasing the code and letting all this serious rewriting go on, but I have to say that the amount of support and continued dialogue that has gone on has put them to shame. The back room boys at Matrix are fixing things that they have left broken for years.... Maybe I can suggest an expanded designer's notes section in the v3.0 manual, so as to explain the reason why certain of the new tweaks and features work the way they do. After having read the discussion on this board over many of the things that puzzled me I can at least, if not completely agree with the resons, understand and appreciate them.



Gobbler -> (7/15/2000 9:12:00 AM)

as to uncertainty - it is goos to remember that when it's happening to you it was probably happening to the other guy earlier. we don't recall the breaks only the busts. Thanks for all the work Matrix.



johnfmonahan -> (7/15/2000 9:17:00 AM)

Speaking of uncertainty, how about being able to buy arty concentrations ? I remember an SPI games from 20 years ago where a US player could have an arty concentration that had 1d6 batteries. So if you had a great target, you requested arty and got 1 to 6 batteries. I don't know if something like this is doable in SPWAW but it would need to be limited to the US. No one else in WWII really had unplanned arty. There was a good article in an old Strategy and Tactics magazine about arty fire in WWII. Basically, it said that the Soviets fired off a planned timetable by bn or brty. The Japanese had only one know bn shoot in the whole war, they used direct fire almost exclusively. The Germans fired by btry or rarely bn, the Brits by btry or bn and the US by the way we all know and love, btry, bn and Group adjusted by anyone with a radio. The flexibility in most wargames is a reflection of modern US practices. It is not reflective of history. I would limit most countries to a rigid fire plan, with a little flexibility for the Brits and Germans. The US is ok they way it is. Comments ? ------------------ When in doubt, go on line.



Jon Grasham -> (7/15/2000 10:54:00 AM)

Well, for the Germans, I have always read that what the unit was assigned was theirs alone. Unflexible for the other poor unit that is getting swamped and has to go waste time getting aproval by the officers, but great for the assigned unit, which would know it had a battery of 150s waiting to be called upon. The US obviously had the most flexible, if Sgt. Screwball finds himself in a mess, he can pop on the horn and so long as it isn't shooting somewhere else, get something to help him out, or wait for something to become available. Perhaps this could be reflected partially in price. Also battery contact status be country determined, but then if you paid for it, and only get it on 3 scattered turns, that's a lot of wasted points. Kind of a tight rope to walk to make it satisfy both areas: Gameplay (the players want what they paid for in full, not on turns 5 and 17), and history (the US would have the best in all respects, availability, quantity, etc). I tend to limit myself to what I feel is semi-accurate of the nation. (don't buy a corps' worth of guns as the Germans, but go crazy as the US. :-) Another wild idea, but would probably have a mixed reception, making off map arty buyable similar to Air strikes, where you can get so many units and no more. National figures could play a role there as well, and like airstrikes, be adjustable for those not interested in limits.



Wild Bill -> (7/15/2000 11:15:00 AM)

Jon, if this is Jon Grasham, the FoF Raider, welcome! Glad you've come to join us! Jon is one of the faithful group of Fields of Fire. They maintain the Campaign Series on the Raider page with Louie Marsh as Team Leader. Glad you headed over our way here at SPWAW world. You are welcome anytime! If this is another Jon Grasham, my apologies. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



U235 -> (7/15/2000 9:04:00 PM)

WB.... are you holding out on us??? Sounds like your playing v3.0? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]



Jon Grasham -> (7/15/2000 11:48:00 PM)

Who.. me? Yeah, it's me. As the Kulnel said, I'm one of Louie's slave..err, team members. . This board is great! And, being addicted to the game (if only there were enough time to satisfy the addiction....), how could I resist? :-)
quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: Jon, if this is Jon Grasham, the FoF Raider, welcome! Glad you've come to join us! Jon is one of the faithful group of Fields of Fire. They maintain the Campaign Series on the Raider page with Louie Marsh as Team Leader. Glad you headed over our way here at SPWAW world. You are welcome anytime! If this is another Jon Grasham, my apologies. Wild Bill
[This message has been edited by Jon Grasham (edited July 15, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Jon Grasham (edited July 15, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Jon Grasham (edited July 18, 2000).]



Wild Bill -> (7/16/2000 1:43:00 AM)

Every day, U-235! Every day...Somebody's gotta do it [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Larry Holt -> (7/17/2000 9:28:00 PM)

Yes, there is uncertainity in war but when the game provides a much greater degree of uncertainity than was historically accurate, IMHO its a bug not a feature. If German optics didn't work often that just wouldn't be accurate. I've only played two long campaign scenarios under 2.3 (German '39) but I found most of my arty unavailable most of the time. I think that this is unrealistic. I understood that this was to be tweaked in 2.3 and perhaps I've just had two bad scenarios, I guess I'll just have to play more to see [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



Wild Bill -> (7/17/2000 10:23:00 PM)

Agreed...WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



JJU57 -> (7/17/2000 11:59:00 PM)

The availability of arty is the realism vs gameplay question. It was realistic to not have arty available when needed or requested. Too many things could and did go wrong. Therefore this is not a bug but a relistic portrayal. That said it detracts from gameplay for some players. I guess some players want all their assets available when they need them. I'm in the middle. I like the realistic arty problem especially if the AI is forced to deal with the same thing. I also like the fact that arty and motors mainly result in supression and not kills, but his is being discussed on another thread. To reach a possilbe compromise maybe the arty availability can be linked to the CC toggle. If CC is turned off then arty is always available. Or maybe even the amunition prefrence or the combination of both.



bigjim -> (7/18/2000 10:18:00 AM)

well since I have "come to grips" with the limitations and "other things" in the game I am enjoying it more. I guess we could argue inadvanitum about some of the descrepencies (LOS of spotted field piece being lost) but it is still a fun game to play I just have to "adjust" to the game and NOT expect everything to be perfect.



Wild Bill -> (7/18/2000 10:56:00 AM)

We're working on it, Big Jim. Believe me, we are...WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



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