RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (Full Version)

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wosung -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 12:33:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

If the Communists are still given Si-An, Yennan will be one more place for them to defend from the Japanese divisions oozing past them. I agree it should be in the game, but then so should a lot of things. When it appears on the map more people will begin to question the realities of China in WiF.


That means correction is bad, because it might reveal former/other questionable spots?? Better don't stirr things up?? [&:]

Regards



trees trees -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 1:37:21 AM)

I've learned a lot from WiF over the years. Barnes & Noble would be wise to sell this game because it does spur further study. How many other wargames have a bibliography? And this thread should show you where it led my interests. I just threw that idea of no Yennan out there because realism lapses in a wargame are usually pretty glaring and reflect poorly on that game. Without Yennan is not real. But neither is giving Si-An to the Communists. It's just that the game is coming out as-is. Fortunately China is the most mysterious theater in the war, even more than Burma. With WiF people say 'Oh well, another crazy game in China, but the rest of the game is still great. Wanna play again?'

A map thought I think I typed into a response and lost to a time-out, and forgot on the re-type:

Mapping the Wuhan area looks challenging for a wargame cartographer. iirc, 5th Edition maps put both Wuhan and Hankow (Han-chow? I forget the exact name of the other major city near-by) on the map ... in the same hex. Problem solved.



Incy -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 1:58:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

I've been wondering if the "Silk Road" will be drawn out further?

I think Devin Culter among others has a House Rule (ut-oh) connecting it to Alma-Ata in the USSR?

The Soviets did use it to send some things to the Nationalists, including aircraft (note the models of the early Nationalist aircraft in the force pool), but it didn't amount to very much so I think ADG decided to simplify it out of the game. Having it on the map could be nice for the future.

I do recall in Tuchman's book that Stillwell was sent to Lan-Chow by the War Department to report on the volume of this aid. It does leave the impression that Lan-Chow remained in Nationalist hands as well.



If you stretch it all the way it will be a viable strategy for Japan to attack south central russia along the road, if it can crush china (or china surrenders). It will also be possible for russia to directly aid China by marching a HQ and a few corps (and maybe some air) down the road and into the front in china.

The distance from central russia to Lanchow is about 30 hexes(much of it desert), so it would take about 8-10 land impulses for a force to be moved along the road. So a force can be sent/withdrawn in about 2-3 turns (more in winter turns).

Allowing this might be fun, and I'm not so sure an advance either way will be a very profitable/smart strategy(because a fast HQ has to be comitted for a year or more), but it might be exploitable, and I think it will tend to help whatever side is allready doing well if anything.

If the road is there I think we might sometimes see players moving a UK/US HQ + some corps/air into russia, rail it to the chinese border, and march the units into china. The road will also potentially help allied units in China trace supply without control of the seas. This might lead to an allied HQ plus LBA flying into South China Sea. Btw, the last problem allready exist by allowing allied HQ's in China to trace to India over the Burma road.



trees trees -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 4:31:52 AM)

sounds a little challenging. Wosung's information that Russian aid for the Kuomintang came in by sea, like the west's, makes far more sense. The existence of this bare skeleton route though can help explain the Oil option, the way China has one saved oil so Mao _or_ Chiang can re-org in a turn. I think this is what the route was used for - a minimum trickle of gasoline supply. ???

In WiF5 I have marched on Urumchi (and defended it) but I don't expect to ever have to do that again.

regarding this:

"This might lead to an allied HQ plus LBA flying into South China Sea. Btw, the last problem allready exist by allowing allied HQ's in China to trace to India over the Burma road."

This was the Allied High Command's exact plan. There it is in WiFFe too, Stilwell HQ-I and Chinese Lend-Lease Liberators. They pulled it off, after an enormous logistical investment (Ledo Road optional, anyone? [8|]) Then the Japanese promptly overran the brand new airfields.


I re-checked the supply rules today, pondering the Burma Road. In WiFFe you don't usually need to use it for that purpose and I had forgotten how it worked. But since it is like a railroad for supply, I still would leave Chihkiang off the map. With all the new cities, the Chinese would no longer need their HQ units so much.

Here's a thought: how about distilling all the spellings and the current vs WWII names of places that we have learned from the great contributions in this thread, and include that like the way the really nice leader biographies will be included? Somewhere, someone will ask "Where's Beijing in this game?" OK that hopefully will be very, very rare amongst people interested in this game.



wosung -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 9:39:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

I've learned a lot from WiF over the years. Barnes & Noble would be wise to sell this game because it does spur further study. How many other wargames have a bibliography? And this thread should show you where it led my interests. I just threw that idea of no Yennan out there because realism lapses in a wargame are usually pretty glaring and reflect poorly on that game. Without Yennan is not real. But neither is giving Si-An to the Communists. It's just that the game is coming out as-is. Fortunately China is the most mysterious theater in the war, even more than Burma. With WiF people say 'Oh well, another crazy game in China, but the rest of the game is still great. Wanna play again?'

Yep. There's a common lack of knowledge about the war in China (I'm not better off), as compared with , say D-Day, even if Chinese had the longest WW2 and the second highest human losses.

How many "famuous" battles in China do we know?? This lack of knowledge might result on the fact, that war in China was the theatre with the least Western involvement in WW2.

A map thought I think I typed into a response and lost to a time-out, and forgot on the re-type:

Mapping the Wuhan area looks challenging for a wargame cartographer. iirc, 5th Edition maps put both Wuhan and Hankow (Han-chow? I forget the exact name of the other major city near-by) on the map ... in the same hex. Problem solved.

We discussed that here before: IRL in the 1930s Wuhan grew together from 3 independent cities: Hankow, Hanyang and Wuchang. It already was one big city.



wosung -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 10:17:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

sounds a little challenging. Wosung's information that most of the Russian aid for the Kuomintang came in by sea, like the west's, makes far more sense. The existence of this bare skeleton route though can help explain the Oil option, the way China has one saved oil so Mao _or_ Chiang can re-org in a turn. I think this is what the route was used for - a minimum trickle of gasoline supply. ???

And reinforcements for National Chinese Airforce

In WiF5 I have marched on Urumchi (and defended it) but I don't expect to ever have to do that again.

regarding this:

"This might lead to an allied HQ plus LBA flying into South China Sea. Btw, the last problem allready exist by allowing allied HQ's in China to trace to India over the Burma road."

This was the Allied High Command's exact plan. There it is in WiFFe too, Stilwell HQ-I and Chinese Lend-Lease Liberators. They pulled it off, after an enormous logistical investment (Ledo Road optional, anyone? [8|]) Then the Japanese promptly overran the brand new airfields.


I re-checked the supply rules today, pondering the Burma Road. In WiFFe you don't usually need to use it for that purpose and I had forgotten how it worked. But since it is like a railroad for supply, I still would leave Chihkiang off the map. With all the new cities, the Chinese would no longer need their HQ units so much.

About supply: Maybe with all the new cities, Chinese attack weakness should be mandatory. IRL they didn't have much of a supply train, because all the new arty was parked for the real (the civil) war. On the other hand most of the time regular Chinese Troops were not fighting, but foraging. Japanese Attacks, so to speak were unwelcomed interruptions while foraging.

There are some other aspects of supply which are quite abstracted in WIF (and I know they will be in MWIF, no question, but that's ok):

-Some supply lines were not in-being. They grew trough the war (Burma road)

-"Normal" supply needs in the different armys mirrowed different social economical cultures. Esp. US and Japanese had quite different definitions of "being out of supply".

There's well-known description of Model or Manteuffel about russian tank spearheads in 1944: Subtracting all the Nazi-dicourse about "unbelievable unorganized asian hordes" in it, on the bottom line remains: They had much less supply trail, so it's difficult to cut then off.

Here's a thought: how about distilling all the spellings and the current vs WWII names of places that we have learned from the great contributions in this thread, and include that like the way the really nice leader biographies will be included? Somewhere, someone will ask "Where's Beijing in this game?" OK that hopefully will be very, very rare amongst people interested in this game.

Good idea. This thread already contains some data. The more of all these minor changes in China there would be, the better they should be documented, proved and explained.

Maybe this can help to calm down accusations of being unwiffy or having setup "another crazy game in China".

BTW Bejing = Peking (both: "Northern Capital") = 1930s-1940s Peiping ("Northern Peace", or "Peace in the North").

Here's another tought, I know Steve will hate it: What about 2 alternative setups for China (esp. in the Northwest), maybe as an, errh, optional rule??
WIFE traditional and MWIF nano-revised??




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 11:13:04 AM)

Not for MWIF product 1. [:-] Focus, man, focus![:)]



wosung -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 11:44:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Not for MWIF product 1. [:-] Focus, man, focus![:)]


Surprise, surprise.

But better a WW2 strategy-game with "one more crazy game in China", than WW2 ETO or PTO only. [:)]



c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 4:30:50 PM)

To put a bit more fuel on the discussion I did a global war setup in the current beta version of the product, it does not include patrice new terrain and cities but the number of hexes are the same so the picture does show the counterdensity pretty accurately.

I did not spend an awful lot of time tinking about the strategy of the setup, it is just to give you all a flavour.

[image]local://upfiles/15172/6E78837B28634993A9CBFB121148E763.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 7:29:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
To put a bit more fuel on the discussion I did a global war setup in the current beta version of the product, it does not include patrice new terrain and cities but the number of hexes are the same so the picture does show the counterdensity pretty accurately.

I did not spend an awful lot of time tinking about the strategy of the setup, it is just to give you all a flavour.

[image]local://upfiles/15172/6E78837B28634993A9CBFB121148E763.jpg[/image]


Japan sets up second, so I assume you are going after the Communists?

Though Japan has fewer units, those units have more mobility and are stronger on average. The limiting factor for offensives, for both armies, is the number of HQs. As shown, China has 2 and Japan has 1.

What you don't show in this screen shot are the units in Japan and Manchuria/Korea that are available to the Japanese, who are the first to move. I can't telll whether you set up Japan's Asia/Pacific infantry corps in China or not. Stealing one of the units from Korea et al (not the HQ) is typical and bringing over the two marine units, militia and Yamamoto HQ from Japan should be accomplished in the first turn (the first impulse if you want to take a naval move). This gives Japan more units to defend rear areas and if they want to put most of their units into attacking in some sector of China, they can.

But it is touch and go here. If Japan does not leave enough for defense, they can get burned. If they do not put enough units into the attack, they won't get anywhere. They same is true for the Chinese.

To some extent, the way to play this is to screen the opposing HQ(s). By which I mean, to have several units prepared to defend against an enemy attack driven by the enemy HQ. In American football, this is equivalent of having one defensive player assigned to do little more than defend against the opposing quarterback running the ball.

Though the isolated Japanese unit in the interior looks to be in bad shape, it should have air cover available and the Chinese would need nice dice to even flip the unit. As in WIF FE China combat, the dice can make or break an offense/defense.



lomyrin -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 7:48:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

To put a bit more fuel on the discussion I did a global war setup in the current beta version of the product, it does not include patrice new terrain and cities but the number of hexes are the same so the picture does show the counterdensity pretty accurately.

I did not spend an awful lot of time tinking about the strategy of the setup, it is just to give you all a flavour.

[image]local://upfiles/15172/6E78837B28634993A9CBFB121148E763.jpg[/image]


I would have the Nat Chinese Chungking 4-3 Mil in Chengchow to absorb the first Jap attack and delay them a bit.
Also I would have the Communist Mil and the Inf in the mountain hexes on both sides of the railway beteween Chengchow and Si An with Mao between them and SI An providing supply. The Japanese can't go north of Si An through the mountains without losing time in transit giving the Communists time to build up and or respond.

Lars





trees trees -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 8:01:16 PM)

I've been doing that in an imaginary way quite a few times the last few days. That is an aggressive Chinese set-up that could lose Nanning and/or Si-An (esp. if the 4 mover INF is under that 8-3) by the second or third impulse if it didn't rain, with a serious threat to Kwei-Yang on turn 2. The Japanese could be threatened in the center but 'walk right in, said the spider to the fly'.

I was looking at the map of WiFFe last night and I realized the Chinese are always in supply on that map and don't need HQs either. I guess the point I've been trying to make is that this is a perhaps ahistorical reason why the Japanese can have a hard time holding on to their gains in China from the mid-game on if they haven't pushed the Chinese back on Chungking. Again on supply think ammunition and the transport links to where it comes from.

wrong thread again: one idea of a minor change to help the Chinese would be to simply change the home city of their MIL counters. Since three out of five of them are behind Japanese lines at start they can't be rebuilt. Those three cities (Peking, Shanghai, Canton) do represent important areas to China but it's not like they were going to run out of manpower in the interior either. Maybe change two of them to Kwei-Yang and Chang-Sha?



wosung -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 11:25:22 PM)

Are warlords on both sides are included in the setup?

I didn't play it yet, but:
With this chinese setup wouldn't it be an alternative for the Japanese to go for Nanning and the ressource near to it first? Get the North-South railway in the mountains, and aiming for Chungking.
What would the Chinese troops around Wuhan would do then? Going for Wuhan and Shanghai? Or defending Sichuan Province?

But on the other side, troops would have to be transferred to Canton, and I' m not sure about logistics for aiming at cunming.


Another thing:

I'll be offline for about three weeks. So you guys here have all the time to set up Mao HQ in Bratislava or elsewere. No, just kidding.
[:)]

So far I enjoyed this forum very much.

Regards



trees trees -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 11:35:10 PM)

It's fun to have Mao hang out behind Zhukov after Mao overruns Manchuria. When Zhukov finally sends out 105% of his troops on a frontal assault and they all die after Zhukov rolls snake eyes, the Germans get discouraged facing yet another army from Asia.

Safe travels!



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/9/2006 11:39:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
I'll be offline for about three weeks. So you guys here have all the time to set up Mao HQ in Bratislava or elsewere. No, just kidding.
[:)]

So far I enjoyed this forum very much.

Too bad you're leaving ! What will this thread become without your enlightened comments ?
Which does not means that the others posters are not enlightening, but Wosung is quite a lot.
[:D]
Have a nice travel Wosung !



c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/10/2006 6:19:46 AM)

In my four PBEM games of CWIF China was killed or nearly killed in three of the games, the typical startegy can be seen in the picture below. In onegame the chineese army was encircled and put OOS outside Chang-sa, and the japanaeese could preyy much ignore it and just walk around it (we were playing with the isolation option).

In the fourth game the chineese pushed Japan out of the mainland by '43 save a couple of coastal hexes. Once Japan is at war with the wallies there was not much she could do to defend herself in China, actionlimits was the main problem, as japan couldn't afford to react to the Chineese advances, actually the war in the pacific was not performed very well either as some actionlimits had to be used in China.

[image]local://upfiles/15172/A2609CBCA90E4FFE99D8CB3ADF913D3B.jpg[/image]



lomyrin -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/10/2006 9:13:07 AM)

I agree with you that in CWiF China falls or is severely mauled more often than not.

But, the first winter is coming and CWiF issued 2 Communist Mils to start. In the winter Japan will be slowed down in speed and attacks. The Chinese forces will have some time to build up.

Lending resources and BP's can also assist China even if Chinese attack weakness is used.

The proposed map with the extra cities and warlord additions should also help to cost Japan more losses and to slow down their advances.

Having to expend more effort and BP's for the China war ought to make Japan a little less formidable against the USA later on. I have come around to think this is good, in CWiF Japan has been very strong in the Pacific in my experience with CWiF. past and present.

Lars




Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/10/2006 11:54:52 AM)

quote:

In my four PBEM games of CWIF China was killed or nearly killed in three of the games, the typical startegy can be seen in the picture below. In onegame the chineese army was encircled and put OOS outside Chang-sa, and the japanaeese could preyy much ignore it and just walk around it (we were playing with the isolation option).


c92nichj, were the Chinese setup similary to the shot of Post #399 in those 3 games where China was killed or nearly killed ?

I'm asking, because I tend to setup China not like this at all, and I would like to know if you had similary high China kill rates with Chinese setup in the mountains east of Chungking and east / southeast of Kweiyang. I never tried such forward Chinese setup in any of my CWiF games.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/10/2006 11:56:52 AM)

quote:

In onegame the chineese army was encircled and put OOS outside Chang-sa, and the japanaeese could preyy much ignore it and just walk around it (we were playing with the isolation option).

The extra cities will hopefully avoid this gamey result of a Chinese Army in its home country being put out of supply too easily, because of the loss of 1 city.

This strengthen me in my opinion of the more Chinese cities the better.
This is gonna change my vote for Hengyang (2 hexes S of Changsha, on the rail) for which I voted NO previously [:D].



c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/10/2006 5:25:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

I agree with you that in CWiF China falls or is severely mauled more often than not.

But, the first winter is coming and CWiF issued 2 Communist Mils to start. In the winter Japan will be slowed down in speed and attacks. The Chinese forces will have some time to build up.

In the winter you launch your southern offensive, wher it is good weather. In the north you stop the attacking but walking forward in the snow works well, the chineese are in no position to counterattack anyhow.

quote:


Lending resources and BP's can also assist China even if Chinese attack weakness is used.

The proposed map with the extra cities and warlord additions should also help to cost Japan more losses and to slow down their advances.


I agree on this I think that the new map goes a long way of assisting CHina in the defense.
quote:


Having to expend more effort and BP's for the China war ought to make Japan a little less formidable against the USA later on. I have come around to think this is good, in CWiF Japan has been very strong in the Pacific in my experience with CWiF. past and present.
Lars


Japan was indeed very strong in three of my games the ones where she succeeded in blowing china to pieces in the game where the china lived to see the Pacific campaign start she was very weak and was on the defensive from the start.

I said this many times before but I feel that the new map favours the one who gets an upper hand.



c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/10/2006 5:55:21 PM)

I have not voted before but as I feel the vote needs to be consider in conjuntion with what will be done to help playbalance on both japan and chineese side.

But Anyhow I thought I give my votes.


North portion
New Cities on the map
Ankang: No
Ningsia: no
Sining: Yes
Tinshui Yes
Tungkwan: No
Yennan: Yes (for the historical feel)


Coastal portion
New Cities on the map
Anking: No
Kaifeng: No
Nanchang: Yes
Nanyang: No
Paoting: No
Suchow: Yes
Wuhsing: yes

New Minor Ports on the map
Chefoo (Minor Port) (2 hexes NE of Tsingtao): Yes
Tsingkow (Minor Port) (was Xinhailian): Yes
Wenchow (2 hexes NE of Foochow): Yes


Existing Cities modified
Hangchow becoming a Minor Port: No
Wuhan Moved 1 hex NW (should be named Hankow ?): Yes
Macao becoming a city: No


Coastal portion
New Cities on the map
Chihkiang (was Chihchiang) + river south moved: Yes very important for supply porposes if we only added one city I would add this one
Kweilin: Yes

New Minor Ports on the map
Amoy (port) (2 hexes SW of Foochow): Yes
Pakhoi (Port): Yes (this port will change the game quite a bit you are now abe to launch an offensive against Kweiyang without controlling the railroad between Canton and Nanning)
Swatow (3 hexes E of Canton): Yes

Cities Refused (not on the map)
Kwangchowan (Port): Yes


Dianquan/Dianqian (port) (2 hexes SW of Foochow): yes



lomyrin -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/10/2006 6:29:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj


quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

I agree with you that in CWiF China falls or is severely mauled more often than not.

But, the first winter is coming and CWiF issued 2 Communist Mils to start. In the winter Japan will be slowed down in speed and attacks. The Chinese forces will have some time to build up.

In the winter you launch your southern offensive, wher it is good weather. In the north you stop the attacking but walking forward in the snow works well, the chineese are in no position to counterattack anyhow.


Yes, the normal Japanese operations are indeed to attack in the south during the winter, your setup seems to be almost entirely against the Communists in the north.

Lars



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/10/2006 7:32:34 PM)

Thanks for the votes [:D].

ullern, Incy, Shannon, you might review post #357 and vote for the rare ones you have not voted for yet (who were in the latest additions, such as Kaifeng (hex E of Chengchow), Wuhsing, the Treaty ports).

Yohan, you have only expressed "NO" votes for 3 cities (Anking, Ningsia (was Yinchuan), Sining), would you mind completing the review and vote for the others too, so that you don't have a negative only impact on the statistics [:)] ?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1140817&mpage=12&key=

We reached about 10 voters.

The biggest changes since last evaluation, are that :
Decreased :
- Anking is no longer on the map (40% YES only)
- Kaifeng is no longer on map 1 (the one with the few cities added), only on map 2 (67% YES)
- Ningsia is barely on map (50% YES)
- Hangchow would barely be a added minor port (50% YES)
- Macao would not be a city in map 1, only on map 2 (57% YES)

Increased :
- Chihkiang (was Chihchiang) is barely back on map 1 (78% YES)
- The Treaty ports (Amoy, Chefoo, Pakhoi, Tsingkow, Swatow, Wenchow) are much appreciated (89%-100%)



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/10/2006 7:45:06 PM)

quote:

ullern, Incy, Shannon, you might review post #357 and vote for the rare ones you have not voted for yet (who were in the latest additions, such as Kaifeng (hex E of Chengchow), Wuhsing, the Treaty ports).

Yohan, you have only expressed "NO" votes for 3 cities (Anking, Ningsia (was Yinchuan), Sining), would you mind completing the review and vote for the others too, so that you don't have a negative only impact on the statistics ?

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1140817&mpage=12&key=

We reached about 10 voters.

I would not like to sound as if I only wanted votes from those people I cited above.

Everyone with an opinion about China, WiF FE, MWiF, is warranted and welcomed to post votes.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/10/2006 7:55:35 PM)

Patrice,

To make your life easier, I agree with all of Borger's votes except one - (the man's a genius, he agrees with me!). Why he got that one vote wrong I do not understand: Hengyang - No.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/10/2006 8:03:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
To make your life easier, I agree with all of Borger's votes except one - (the man's a genius, he agrees with me!). Why he got that one vote wrong I do not understand: Hengyang - No.

I take that this is for the votes you did not express already, because you diverge from him on some cities for which you voted some time ago : Ningsia, Sining, Suchow, Yennan (you already said NO, he said YES)
[:D]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/10/2006 9:55:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
To make your life easier, I agree with all of Borger's votes except one - (the man's a genius, he agrees with me!). Why he got that one vote wrong I do not understand: Hengyang - No.

I take that this is for the votes you did not express already, because you diverge from him on some cities for which you voted some time ago : Ningsia, Sining, Suchow, Yennan (you already said NO, he said YES)
[:D]

No. Actually, I mean to change my votes to match his. I have read all the discussion on the pros and cons that different people have put forth and have changed my mind on some. More information makes for better decisions.



Incy -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/11/2006 2:18:30 AM)

Paochi (was Baoji) (was 2 hexes W of Sian) (deleted) (0 YES, 5 Voters) (NO : Froonp, Wosung, ullern, lomyrin, Shannon) YES
Paotow (End of the rail going NW from Taiyuan) (deleted) (0 YES, 5 Voters) (NO : Froonp, Wosung, ullern, lomyrin, Shannon) NO (will help chinese outflanking moves to much)
Kweisui (hex E of Paotow) (proposal) (0 voters) NO (same as for Paotow)
Kaifeng (hex E of Chengchow) (2 YES, 2 Voters) (YES : Froonp, Wosung) YES (but no strong feeling)
Chefoo (Minor Port) (2 hexes NE of Tsingtao) (1 YES, 1 Voters) (YES : Froonp) YES (looks like big port facilities on google)
Wenchow (2 hexes NE of Foochow) (1 YES, 1 Voters) (YES : Froonp) YES (good for japanese supply, and it seems to be a big port)
NB Maybe there should be a river NE+NW of Wenchow?
Macao becoming a city (not done) (2 YES, 3 Voters) (YES : Wosung, Incy | No : Froonp)* Acually I'm willing to reconsider this, as it will be a powerful air-base with a city in it (and din't play any significant role during war. We don't want Portugal pulled in just because of macau)

New City: Jianling(Sashi) 3 hexes SW of Nanyang, where Yangtze is printed on map (reason: This looks like a reasonable-sized city, and currently there is no good supply source in the area between the Yangtze and HangKiang, which is an important bit of front real estate, and also the area between/along those rivers seem to have good infrastructure ans heavy population, but there are no cities)
Ichang (3 hexes W of Wuhan) (proposal) (0 voters) NO (Yianling seems the bigger, and I don't think both are waranted) YES if no Yianling

Kalgan (hex NW of Peking) (proposal) (0 YES, 1 voters) (NO : Froonp) NO, but I think rail coming from NW mountains should connect through that hex
Swatow (3 hexes E of Canton) (1 YES, 1 Voters) (YES : Froonp) YES
Chungking moved southwards (not done, alternative solution partly adopted because of Incy comments with Google Earth) (1 YES, 3 Voters) (YES : ullern | No : Froonp, Shannon) NO
Hengyang (2 hexes S of Changsha, on the rail) (proposal) (1 YES, 5 Voters) (YES : Wosung | No : Froonp, ullern, lomyrin, Shannon)YES
(or replace with Xiangtan 1 hex SW of Changsha, whichj seems bigger)

Amoy (port) (2 hexes SW of Foochow) (1 YES, 1 Voters) (YES : Froonp) YES YES
Dianquan/Dianqian (port) (2 hexes SW of Foochow) (proposal) (0 voters) This is the same as Xiamen/Amoy ??



YohanTM2 -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/11/2006 5:13:52 AM)

I have one comment for those who discuss CWiF as part of the analysis on MWiF for China. It is flawed. The game was flawed and there is no where enough statistical data to make a valid analysis.

Patrice, I think it is time to draw a line in the sand and call the map with hte current votes. Let the play testers have at it.

Steve, not sure if you are interested but based on the divergence from WiF FE perhaps you should pull together a group of 4 playtesters to just test China/Jap (and Russia) on the new map.

I think there may be a few volunteers here...



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (6/11/2006 6:27:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan

I have one comment for those who discuss CWiF as part of the analysis on MWiF for China. It is flawed. The game was flawed and there is no where enough statistical data to make a valid analysis.

Patrice, I think it is time to draw a line in the sand and call the map with hte current votes. Let the play testers have at it.

Steve, not sure if you are interested but based on the divergence from WiF FE perhaps you should pull together a group of 4 playtesters to just test China/Jap (and Russia) on the new map.

I think there may be a few volunteers here...

There is a subset of the beta testers already planning on doing that. Thanks anyway.

If too few of the current beta testers get involved, ...



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