RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (Full Version)

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Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 5:19:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
From Nanning to Changsha there should be no railway, just some sort of "Highway".

There is one railway on the maps I have. But it stops at Liuchow as I wrote in the comments from the China South map.
Anyway, this railway come from the WiF FE map, I won't delete it.
Moreover, there are no "highways" in WiF FE.
The only roads that are represented are the Burma Road and the Arctic Road (Finland). They obey to special rules.

quote:

There should also be a "Highway" from Nanning to Canton.

No highways in WiF FE.
Either railways or nothing.
Maybe some highways are considered as railway for WiF FE needs. This I don't know.
There is no railway between Nanning & Canton on the WiF FE maps, so I won't add one.
The maps should strategically stay the same, from WIF FE to MWiF.

quote:

The rail line Hanoi-Nanning should end just before Nanning. And be exchanged by Highway.

Maybe that part of highway was considered as a railway by the WiF FE design team.

quote:

Perhaps one should delete all the highways in China anyway. Better not to substitute them by railway, as sometimes has been done in wif maps. Long distance transportation in China WAS a mess. But then the Japanese would get problems with transporting ressources by land. So at least delete most of the connections between Inland provinces (Yunnan and Sichuan) and costal China. Provincial modernization in KMT-Hinterland just slowly started bout 1935 as ressource and armament centre and as Chinese "Alpen fortress".

About railways, I'll leave them as they are on the WiF FE maps.
I only modificated them at 2 places : I added one from Naninkg to west of Hang-Chow, because it is present on the WiF FE maps, and I moved the one that goes from Tai-Yuan to Chengchow, because it was not accurate.
I prefer not to add any one more, and not to delete any.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 5:30:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

Depends on criteria: little Chengchow should be deleted for the far more important provincial capital Kaifeng (just the hex right of Chengchow, at the railway line).

I can't, Chengchow is already on the WiF FE maps.

quote:

The distance between Nanking and Shanghai seems to be too long.

Would you move Nanking to have a better distance ?
You would move it where ?
This I can do if it is so badly placed. [:D]
But please also consider the distance from Nanking to other places in China.

quote:

The rail between Hangchow and Nanchang was not completed (1935), also the one Changsha - Canton. Not sure about 1939.

The Rail between Nanchang and Changsha was not even projected in 1935.

It is present on WiF FE maps. I can't remove it.
I've not my WWII maps from where I'm answering you, but I'm pretty sure that this railway is present on them.

quote:

There should be a "highway" from Chengtu-Chongking-Kweiyang.

As I already said, there is no highway in WiF FE. Only special roads.
I can't add one, as there is none on the WIF FE maps.

quote:

But not one from Kweiyang to Changsha. The route Kweiyang - Kunming is debatable, because it was built, as much infrastructure in Yunnan and Sichuan Provinces in wartime.

This is supposed to be the famous Burma Road.
The Burma Road is not done well on WiF FE maps ?

quote:

Much of the traffic was by river.

Maybe some of the trafic by river is shown by railway on the WiF FE maps ?



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 5:38:37 PM)

Wosung, your comments seemed to be very learned, and I thank you warmely for them, I appreciated.

I wanted to say this to you because I realized that my comments were not very kind to you. I seemed to always say "no" "no" "this is not on the WiF FE maps" all the time. [:D]

Your comments were especially with the railways, and the goal I think we try to reach in modifying the China portion of the map is to add more cities to it. Not to add any railway.

Would you have further comments about the cities proper ?
That is : Are the cities added to the map seems right to you, from a WiF Fe point of view, and from a real terrain point of view.
Would you have added more ? Less ?

Could you provide me with a list of coherent names for the cities that I added ?
I tried to be coherent, and to use names from WWII, I even kept 2 columns on my Excel chart where I track the cities of China, with the present name and the WWII name.



wosung -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 6:38:13 PM)

Thanks, no problems with the "no", well nearly no problem[:)]

The Names should read,
for the north-west;
Ankang
Sining
Paochi*
Tienshui*
Tungkwan*
Ningsia (like the province, itself = modern Yinchuan)
*IRL really historical insginficant small places

for the north-eastern/ middlechina part
Hofei
Tsingkow (can't find this Xinhailian = Hsinhailien. Tsingkow must be around the corner, now, I think part of modern Lianyungang. Tsingkow is a habor, kow means mouth, like river in the sea)
Nanchang
Hsüchow (Your Suchow, which IRL is near Hangchow)
Yencheng (Your Xiangfan, I think)
Paoting

South China
Chihchiang (can't find it, probably really small) What about exchanging it with Kweilin (Guilin), which was an important traffic centre between the Hinterland and the coast in the "Antijapanese Resistance War"?

And please just think about removing the "-" between the syllables, to make it uniform. Otherwise it is looking, well unprofessional. Even if this ment asking WIF god himself. Imagine 1,4 billion potential WIF customers confused, because they can't find their cities. [:'(]

I know there are no highways in WIF (highway was the term on the legend of my 1935 map, and that was just euphemistic propaganda tlk). I know rails sometimes are abstracted transport routes.

IRL much traffic was on the Chinese rivers. (Rail lines along the rivers?) But then overall it would be wiser to delete questionable rails, instead of placing them, because inland-China was a logistical nightmare for both, Japanese and Chinese. Much worse than Western Russia. Because of this and because of population ratios, it should be immpossible for Japan to conquer China, but possible to knockout its will to resist.

Main problem with Burma road was that it didn't exist in 1937. It just was constructed until the end of the war.

Reexamined Nanking, which is about 300km from Shanghai. So that's right, if it's 100 km per hex.

Regards



wosung -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 6:40:41 PM)

forgot South Chinese Liuchow

Regards



lomyrin -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 7:10:07 PM)

Being an experienced CWiF and WiFFE player as I have stated before, I would want to limit the additional Chinese Cities to just a few somewhat evenly spaced ones.

I would add only, if any have to be added at all:

Tianshui - a veritable Communist lifesaver being a city in a mountain hex on the rail line between Lan Chow and Si An.

Baoding - provides a stopgap supply point in the north east of China.

Xiangfan - provides a stopgap Nationalist supply point in Mid China.

Suchow - a stopgap supply point of minor importance, it starts in Japanese control.

Liuchow - a stopgap supply point in southern China, but do not change the rail line there.

I think the other additions proposed are either too strong additions for the Chinese or without much importance except for adding US entry costs.

Every one of these additions will definitely change the China campaign and cause Japanese losses higher than they would be without any changes as well as make China stronger and more of a later war threat to Japan. It is also likely to reduce Japanese resource captures and eventually reflect in a weaker Japan against the USA.

It may seem like only a few minor changes to add Chinese cities but it WILL CHANGE the entire Global War game.

Lars




wosung -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 7:22:54 PM)

Ok found Your Chihchiang (better: Chihkiang), according to a modern PRC 1:4 000 000 map it's a district town, that means it is really small. Next bigger town (in the same WIF hex) is Hwaihua (modern: Huaihua). But I would vote for Kweilin

According to the 1935 traffic map, it's a border area without much places and traffic. Only named place in that area is a Taohwaping (which doesn't exist on the slightly larger PRC map).

Regards



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 7:32:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

My suggested changes to what you propose are:
quote:

China Coast - remove Hefei and Su-Chow. They are not needed for Chinese supply when counterattacking.

The main reason to add Hefei & Suchow (why do you spell it Su-Chow ?) were to give back the map the "City battle" feature that the WiF FE maps had.
The coast has a lot of cities, and on the WiF FE map there is nearly 1 city in each hex you want to advance. Adding those was to make the area more like this, you see ?
Moreover those cities are already conquered by Japan, so they do not add an US Entry roll.

quote:

North China - remove Baoji, Yinchuan, and Sining. Baoji is not needed for maintaining Chinese supply given the two other new cities.

This reduces the new, conquerable cities to 16. They all would be worthwhile taking for the conquest of China. At .3 per, the cost in US Entry points would be 4.8, which is still a little high. If need be, we could make some of the less important cities cost .2, to make it come out to an even 4 as in WIF FE.

I added Baoji feeling that it was maybe too much (with Tianshui).
Nils also asked me to remove Sining & Yinchuan before I post this to this thread, so I believe you must be right the both of you.
It removing both, I will then modifiy the river around Lan-Chow to cover it on 3 sides as it is on the WiF FE maps.
Would you agree ?

I noted down your proposals.
I'll wait further forum members comment before making changes, is this OK ?


My ability to spell the names of Chinese cities is very poor. Please ignore any mistakes I make.

The limiting factor when attacking in China tends to be that only one land attack can be mustered per game turn. Many units are needed for maintaining the front lines and acquiring enough excess units to launch an attack is always difficult. Since armor is not commonly available, even good attacks result in all the attacking units becoming disrupted. Reorganizing all of them for performnig a second attack is hard to do.

So, adding more cities has the effect of requiring the attacker to use the assault table more often. Simply placing the weakest sacrificial lamb in a city can delay the Japanese army for an entire turn. Throw in a few bad weather rolls and the China campaign grinds to a halt. Conversely, a few lucky rolls for combat (no attackers disrupted plus 2 or 3 defenders in a hex destroyed) and for weather, and Japan can roll up China with relative ease.

This is why play balance in China is so hard to do. Its sensitivity to die rolls is much higher than for other land action in WIF.

So I strongly prefer to not add cities unless there is an excellent reason for doing so. Hence my suggestion to not add those 2 (hard to spell) cities behind the Japanese lines.



c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 7:53:10 PM)

I agree with Lars, that we should add less cities , maybe add about 4 in total.
One of them should be between Lanchow and Si-An.
One between Changcha and chungking

The other two evenly spaced from other cities.

To make a japaneese strategy of not going all out for china possible, you could move the resources closer to the Coastline and more easily to defend against a coming chineese juggernaut.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 7:58:05 PM)

Patrice,

There seem to be several issues under discussion here:

1 - Adding cities

2 - Adding rail lines

3 - Naming cities

4 - Change in play balance

For naming cities, I like going with what Wosung suggests, even if that changes what is printed on the WIF FE maps. I would want them to be names appropriate for English speakers, circa 1937-1945, and to be consistent in their spelling mechanics.

For adding cities and rail lines, I suggest breaking the problem into the 3 geographical areas you started with. If a consensus can be achieved for one or two of those sections, then the problem is smaller.

#4 is the hard problem. I do not expect us to be able to reach universal agreement on this and I have always believed we would have to play test any solution we come up with. Therefore, I suggest identifying 2 or 3 alternatives and we will play test the most likely solution first. If that fails, then we will try the alternatives. It might be possible to have a couple of solutions in play test simultaneously. I already have adding additional Chinese cities as an optional rule, so that gives us 2 alternatives already built into MWIF (none/some). With reluctance, I might be persuaded to extend that to two flavors of additional Chinese cities (none/few/many).



mycodave -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 7:58:57 PM)

Hi Guys,

My first post here (long-time lurker). I had a random thought about the Balance in China issue:

Would it be an idea to have a new terrain type - a "supply city" for use with all the new MWIF cities?
The *only* use for such a city would be supply.
Thus there would only be a check for US entry effects in the original WIF FE cities, and perhaps reinforcements could be only placed in the original cities etc. The loss of the communist capital would therefore remain quite devastating to the Chinese - the communists would remain in supply, but would have no new reinforcements until an original city was liberated.

That might help reduce some considerable playtesting difficulties...or maybe not.
If this has already been thought of, and disregarded, then please disregard the above [:)]

Cheers,
Dave



wosung -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 8:01:15 PM)

Selection of new cities:

Problem with Communist China is, that there don't exist lots of cities: poor border-country full of Mountains. Sining and Ningsia are the only additional provincial cities there. IRL Communists didn't care much about the cities then. What if in WIF the communist held Cities are conquered, are there still Communist Partisans?

The nowadays more important Hofei could be substituted with Anking (just one hex apart, in the mountainous Yangzi-hex to the south east, then Provincial capital of Anhwei).

In the South additional historical important cites were Kweilin (then provincial capital of Kwangsi), Hengyang (in the middle between Changsha and Canton, along the rail). And what about Kangting (220 km straight to the west of Chengtu, and Provincial capital of then Sikang Province)?

Regards



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 8:01:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mycodave

Hi Guys,

My first post here (long-time lurker). I had a random thought about the Balance in China issue:

Would it be an idea to have a new terrain type - a "supply city" for use with all the new MWIF cities?
The *only* use for such a city would be supply.
Thus there would only be a check for US entry effects in the original WIF FE cities, and perhaps reinforcements could be only placed in the original cities etc. The loss of the communist capital would therefore remain quite devastating to the Chinese - the communists would remain in supply, but would have no new reinforcements until an original city was liberated.

That might help reduce some considerable playtesting difficulties...or maybe not.
If this has already been thought of, and disregarded, then please disregard the above [:)]

Cheers,
Dave


Yes, this is possible. Both the change in US Entry cost (so it is not the same for every Chinese city) and the change in where reinforcements can arrive (harder to do, but not unreasonable).



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 8:33:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
The Names should read,

I suppose all the names you gave are 1940 names, am I ok ?

quote:

for the north-west;
Tungkwan*

Is this my Tongguan ?

quote:

Ningsia (like the province, itself = modern Yinchuan)
*IRL really historical insginficant small places

What city on my map is Ningsia ? Is it Yinchuan ?

quote:

for the north-eastern/ middlechina part
Hsüchow (Your Suchow, which IRL is near Hangchow)

All of my WWII maps show Suchow east of Chengchow, north of Nanning. Are they wrong ?

quote:

Yencheng (Your Xiangfan, I think)

Isn't Yencheng rather Yichang, on the Yangsee river ? Can't find that Yenchen city.
My Xiangfan is on the Han Kiang river.

But, maybe I should replace Xiangfan with the Nanyang city, who is on more maps, and in the same area (Id place it 1 hex Nortwast from Xiangfan).

quote:

South China
Chihchiang (can't find it, probably really small) What about exchanging it with Kweilin (Guilin), which was an important traffic centre between the Hinterland and the coast in the "Antijapanese Resistance War"?

I have Chihkiang on the WWII maps I have.
Where is Kweilin (Guilin) ? What is the 1940 name ?

quote:

And please just think about removing the "-" between the syllables, to make it uniform. Otherwise it is looking, well unprofessional. Even if this ment asking WIF god himself. Imagine 1,4 billion potential WIF customers confused, because they can't find their cities. [:'(]

I agree, you're right.
On the modified map I'm doing, I'm removing the dashes.
Steve will decide if he removes them on the existing map, but I would vote for it, even if this is a departure from the WiF FE map.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 9:03:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
I would add only, if any have to be added at all:
Tianshui - a veritable Communist lifesaver being a city in a mountain hex on the rail line between Lan Chow and Si An.
Baoding - provides a stopgap supply point in the north east of China.
Xiangfan - provides a stopgap Nationalist supply point in Mid China.
Suchow - a stopgap supply point of minor importance, it starts in Japanese control.
Liuchow - a stopgap supply point in southern China, but do not change the rail line there.
I think the other additions proposed are either too strong additions for the Chinese or without much importance except for adding US entry costs.

Your remarks are going the same way are those of the provious posters are, that is, less added cities.

I already removed Sining, Baoji & Yinchuan [:(].

What about Ankang & Chihchiang ?
I think they are necessary to provide supply to the Chinese armies in these mountains.
Chinese units in these mountains are in supply from Chungking in WiF FE, but here, Chungking is too far.
I wouldn't remove them.



wosung -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 9:08:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung
The Names should read,

I suppose all the names you gave are 1940 names, am I ok ?

Yep

quote:

for the north-west;
Tungkwan*

Is this my Tongguan ?

Yep: This is your Tongguan

quote:

Ningsia (like the province, itself = modern Yinchuan)
*IRL really historical insginficant small places

What city on my map is Ningsia ? Is it Yinchuan ?

Yep: Yinchuan

quote:

for the north-eastern/ middlechina part
Hsüchow (Your Suchow, which IRL is near Hangchow)

All of my WWII maps show Suchow east of Chengchow, north of Nanning. Are they wrong ?

OK, quite complicated: there are at least 2 Suchows. Different Chinese characters are pronounced the same way, thus transcribed with the same latin letters. I Checked again: Your Suchow does exist east of Chengchow, north of Nanning; 50 km south of my Hsüchow (same sized city) a.k. in the same WIF hex. Both are quite unknown places.

Problem is, I first thought of Suchow No. 2, which is one of the most famed cities in China ("Chinese Venice"), and which is near Hangchow. So it looked like a fault. Sorry

quote:

Yencheng (Your Xiangfan, I think)

Isn't Yencheng rather Yichang, on the Yangsee river ? Can't find that Yenchen city.
My Xiangfan is on the Han Kiang river.

Sorry can't find it right now

But, maybe I should replace Xiangfan with the Nanyang city, who is on more maps, and in the same area (Id place it 1 hex Nortwast from Xiangfan).

I would go for Nanyang (bigger, better known)

quote:

South China
Chihchiang (can't find it, probably really small) What about exchanging it with Kweilin (Guilin), which was an important traffic centre between the Hinterland and the coast in the "Antijapanese Resistance War"?

I have Chihkiang on the WWII maps I have.

See one of my other posts: It is really a small place (if that is a criteria for MWIF)

Where is Kweilin (Guilin) ? What is the 1940 name?

Kweilin (Guilin) is between Kweiyang and Canton, on the height of Nanning.

quote:

And please just think about removing the "-" between the syllables, to make it uniform. Otherwise it is looking, well unprofessional. Even if this ment asking WIF god himself. Imagine 1,4 billion potential WIF customers confused, because they can't find their cities. [:'(]

I agree, you're right.
On the modified map I'm doing, I'm removing the dashes.
Steve will decide if he removes them on the existing map, but I would vote for it, even if this is a departure from the WiF FE map.



Regards, over, out



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 10:09:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wosung
South China
Chihchiang (can't find it, probably really small) What about exchanging it with Kweilin (Guilin), which was an important traffic centre between the Hinterland and the coast in the "Antijapanese Resistance War"?

Chihchiang and Kweilin are not in the same place.
Kweilin would be 2 hex NE of Liuchow, on the rail, that is 4 hexes south of Chihchiang.
A city where I put Chihchiang is necessary for supply in the mountains east of Chungking.

About Kweilin, I can put it on the map to replace Liuchow, and then I could put the resource back at its starting place.

Also, talikng about resources, someone sussgested placing the resources closer to the sea.
What about moving the resource that is south of Changsha 2 hexes southwards, in the middle of the woods ? This would be more true to the WiF FE maps.

I could also move the railways junctions that is south of Changsha 1 hex southwards too. That would be more true to the WiF FE maps too.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/E600E97DDF684CC4B09495032D5B2024.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 10:40:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wosung
Problem with Communist China is, that there don't exist lots of cities: poor border-country full of Mountains. Sining and Ningsia are the only additional provincial cities there. IRL Communists didn't care much about the cities then. What if in WIF the communist held Cities are conquered, are there still Communist Partisans?

There are still Communist Partisans, even if there are no more Communist armies. But the Communist Armies are the real threat on Japan. Communist partisans are just losses takers or supply cutters. They are not strong enough to attack alone.
If the Communist loose all their cities, remaining Communist units can still conquer a Nationalist city to make it a Communist City and still have reinforcements & supply, provided the remaining Communist armies are near enough to go to the nearest Nationalist City.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 10:46:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

For naming cities, I like going with what Wosung suggests, even if that changes what is printed on the WIF FE maps. I would want them to be names appropriate for English speakers, circa 1937-1945, and to be consistent in their spelling mechanics.

I agree.

quote:

For adding cities and rail lines, I suggest breaking the problem into the 3 geographical areas you started with. If a consensus can be achieved for one or two of those sections, then the problem is smaller.

I agree to add cities, I disagree to add railways, except those that I "added" (who were on the WiF FE maps, and were not on the MWiF map, so I did not add any to the WiF FE maps).

There are 13 cities (plus 1 port) left to discuss (I use the new names provided by Wosung here) :

North zone
Ankang
Ningsia (was Yinchuan)
Sining
Tienshui
Tungkwan (was Tongguan)

Coast zone
Paoting (was Baoding)
Hofei (was Hefei) (or Anking suggested by Wosung -- 1 hex SE Hofei)
Nanchang
Suchow
Xiangfan (or Nanyang suggested by Wosung -- 1 hex NE of Xiangfan)
Tsingkow port (was Xinhailian)

South zone
Chihchiang
Hengyang (suggested by Wosung -- 2 hexes south of Changsha, on the rail)
Liuchow (or Kweilin suggested by Wosung -- 2 hex NE of Liuchow, on the rail)

Maybe we could have a vote for each one them ?
Each one of us could vote YES / NO for each ?
You could paste the list in your answer post and add YES / NO beside the name, writing the name of the city you would prefer when there are 2 choices.

Please Wosung, correct the names if I went wrong again.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 10:50:56 PM)

My vote :

North zone
Ankang YES
Ningsia (was Yinchuan) YES
Sining YES
Tienshui YES
Tungkwan (was Tongguan) YES

Coast zone
Paoting (was Baoding) YES
Hofei (was Hefei) (or Anking suggested by Wosung -- 1 hex SE Hofei) YES Anking
Nanchang YES
Suchow YES
Xiangfan (or Nanyang suggested by Wosung -- 1 hex NE of Xiangfan) YES Nanyang
Tsingkow port (was Xinhailian) YES

South zone
Chihchiang YES
Hengyang (suggested by Wosung -- 2 hexes south of Changsha, on the rail) NO
Liuchow (or Kweilin suggested by Wosung -- 2 hex NE of Liuchow, on the rail) YES Kweilin (and resource back to its original place)




lomyrin -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 10:52:04 PM)

Both Ankang and Chihchian are mountain cities and immediately will become very costly for the Japanese to overcome.

The ChihChian area can be in supply from a Chi HQ most of the time.

Ankang is in an area where there is nothing else except more mountains, in the now existing map neither Chinese nor Japanese are likely to go through there. If there was a coity there where reinforcements can arrive it would force the Japanese to allocate some units to screen that rather than participate in the main campaign in China.

Although the computer map has a great many more hexes than the WiFFE map there are no more units available than in WiFFE. In WiFFE there usually is a continuous Chinese line against an equally placed Japanese one. In MWiF there will only be selected areas where units are present and campaigning and there will be a lot of empty land areas. Beacuse the Japanes also must trace supply they will mostly advance along rail lines. Placing extra Chinese units in new cities in the areas the Japanese must traverse will drastically change the China campaigns.

I noticed that Steve mentioned the possiblity of making the extra Chinese cities an option, that would solve this subject pretty well in that then players could choose to have them or not.

As I mentioned before, unforeseen impacts to the game are likely by adding these cities.

Lars



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 10:55:32 PM)

quote:

As I mentioned before, unforeseen impacts to the game are likely by adding these cities.

Whatever the choices are made here, we're supposed to playtest it anyway.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 11:09:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Both Ankang and Chihchian are mountain cities and immediately will become very costly for the Japanese to overcome.

Overcoming a moutain hex or a city mountain hex is nearly the same.
Chances are high that the defender chooses the assault table anyway even if there are no cities.
For me this is not a real problem.

The Japanese extending a frontline, and flanking the Chinese, because they have 3 HQ and the Nationalist Chinese only have 1 is a problem. If no cities are added, this is what happens.

Cities not linked by rail are less a threat to the Japanese, as Chinese appearing there are also going nowhere, except if an HQ appear here. The Japanese will screen it to be safe, but the Japanese have to leave A LOT troops behind anyway only because of the Partisans threat, so that's not an Ankang city that will be an extra hassle. The Chengchow - Sian railway is of special concern here, as a couple of partisans arriving here can cut the whole Japanese army between Sian & Lanchow (less now that I moved the railway from Taiyuan).



lomyrin -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 11:25:02 PM)

My Vote:

North: Tienshui

Coast: Paoting, Xiangfan, Suchow

South: Liuchow

However, my preference would be to have these cities inclusion be an option.

For comparison purposes: The Russian areas east of Stalingrad have certainly been expanded enormously by the unitary map scale. There are large areas there that have supply problems but hopefully this will not be changed.

Lars




Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/25/2006 11:29:57 PM)

quote:

For comparison purposes: The Russian areas east of Stalingrad have certainly been expanded enormously by the unitary map scale. There are large areas there that have supply problems but hopefully this will not be changed.


Sure, but it is also a supply hole in WiF FE. And it is an area of less importance as there are quite never any armies going there (only saw it once).

In China, there are a lot more supply holes at this scale than on the WiF FE pacific scale map.



Neilster -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/26/2006 8:30:13 AM)

Man, those railways look good [:'(]

Cheers, Neilster



wosung -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/26/2006 11:55:09 AM)

I would vote for:

North zone
Ankang
Ningsia (was Yinchuan) see: Oxford Companion to WW2 Map, p. 218
Sining Oxford Companion, p. 218
Tienshui
Tungkwan (was Tongguan) Oxford Companion, p. 218

Coast zone
Paoting (was Baoding)
Anking (1 hex SE Hofei)
Nanchang Oxford Companion, p. 218
Hsuchow (instead of same-hex-Suchow, because I don't want it to be mixed up with the other Suchow. Oxford companion, p. 218)
Nanyang (because it was the more important city. 1 hex NE of Xiangfan, which should then read "Siangfan")
Tsingkow port (was Xinhailian)

South zone
Chihchiang (even if it's more or less a village)
Hengyang (2 hexes south of Changsha, on the rail, see: Oxford Companion, p. 218)
Kweilin (2 hex NE of Liuchow, on the rail, because it was an important traffic centre during WW2, Oxford Companion, p. 218).

For a coherent WW2 Transcription the above names are chosen and transcribed along the following 3 sources:

1. The Oxford Companion to the Second World War, ed. I.C.B Dear, Oxford 1995, O. University Press, p. 218 (the China map in the Book that even Harry Rowland would take with him on a lonely island).

2. Tang Leangli, Reconstruction in China, Shanghai 1935, China United Press. (the huge traffic map in the addendum, lots of hardware information, but please note that this book is in parts propaganda about Kuomintang industrialization for us Westerners).

3. Chinese Ministry of Information, China Handbook, 1937-1944: A Comprehensive Survey of Major Developments in China in Seven Years of War, Chungking 1944, p.3 (administrative divisions according to the Ministry of Interior. Lots of hardware information, but please note that this book is in parts propaganda about Kuomintang war-time effort for us Westerners).

Please note, that usually the names in maps of China are incoherent, both using and not using the "-". This is the case even in academic work, like in the Cambridge History of China. The above used transcription is some sort of official (National) Chinese war-time transcription (sligthly altered Wade-Giles system: Sian instead of Hsi-an).

Based on that sources the already existing chinese city names should coherently be: (and hey: it's only a proposal)

old - new
Peking - Peiping
Tien-Tsin - Tientsin
Tai-Yuan - Taiyuan
Lan Chow - Lanchow
Tsi-Nan - Tsinan
Tsing-Tao - Tsingtao
Si-An - Sian
Nanking - Nanking
Cheng-Tu - Chengtu
Wuhan - Wuhan
Hang-Chow - Hangchow
Shanghai - Shanghai
Chung King - Chungking
Chang-Sha - Changsha
Kwei-Yang - Kweiyang
Kunming - Kunming
Canton - Canton
Hong Kong - Hongkong

The old Manchurian names are ok (at least on my 4th ed. WIF map)
Plus: Chengchow, Foochow

I think the naming quite coherent, but please get a second opinon (certainly apart from your own opinion).

Regards

And by the way: what about enlarging other parts of Asia (Manchuria and so on)?!




Incy -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/26/2006 12:45:49 PM)

I've played the CWiF china map several times, and I don't agree that the way to go is fewer (than suggested) cities.
Cities are good defensive ground, they give -1 on the combat table unless an HQ is part of the attack. They also help reduce the risk of catastrophic encirclement. Thus, more cities will help whatever side is defending.

My feeling is that China in MWiF is to "open", it's like the ukraine or north-east France, good blitz country.
I want more forest, rivers, cities, swamps, etc.
In WIFFE China is like that. Almost every single hex has some feature that helps the defender or slows down the attacker. When a hex is lost, it's not neccesary to pull back 500 km to the next viable defensive line (like in russia), one can just shift slightly stronger units into the hexes that are now more exposed, and let the line stand.

I would like to keep china like that, and since we are halving the scale, we're effectively quadrupling (at least) the number of hexes. Thus, to maintain city density, we'd have to quadruple the number of cities!!. Maybe that's a bit over the top, but at least I'd like to move in that direction. China should be line upon line upon line upon line, and partisans in the rear if one advances to far...

And don't forget, cities help the defender even if the defender is Japan. Yes to more cities & more ports in occupied China, that will helt Japan staying ashore if they're getting pushed back.


As for specific details I'm not an expert on China, but it seems to me Canton should probably be a city, and I'm also missing all the coastal ports/cities the Japanese captured early. And could we have chinese Sprately islands??


Incy






Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/26/2006 1:18:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy
I would like to keep china like that, and since we are halving the scale, we're effectively quadrupling (at least) the number of hexes. Thus, to maintain city density, we'd have to quadruple the number of cities!!. Maybe that's a bit over the top, but at least I'd like to move in that direction. China should be line upon line upon line upon line, and partisans in the rear if one advances to far...

It's more than 6 MWiF hexes to 1 WiF FE hex.

Size of China :
It was 10 hex rows from Peking to Canton in WiF FE, it is 24 hex rows now in MWiF.
It was 7 hex columns from Shanghai to Lan Chow in WiF FE, it is 19-20 hex columns now in MWiF.

It went from a surface of about 70 hexes to a surface of about 468 hexes (if China was a rectangle).


Partisans with those vast spaces, and those scarse railways are very very deadly.

China gives a false feeling of being like butter for Japan, but it is another story once in the mountains, far from the railways, with few HQs and few rear troops.



wosung -> RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion (5/26/2006 1:58:20 PM)

I can see your point.

Personally I just played around with CWIF, never played the board game. So I've barely WIF experience of long-time fans: "How it should play". And I think, old customers are the majority here.

Geographically and historically speaking:

1. More cities would indeed reflect Chinese huge population (over 400 Million in war-time) and even some aspects of the war: Rape of Nanking, the fierce city fights, the Chinese occasional were able to put up: Shanghai (OK that was 1937, pre WIF), Taierchuang...

2. Perhaps one should think about additional terrain features:

-one or two lake hexes (between Wuhan and Changsha, North of Nanchang, East of Shanghai, North of Nanjing)
-A river from Tianjin to Nanjing (imperial north-South Channel)
-some more mountain hexes in middle eastern China
-some more desert hexes in north China

I think, the war in China shouldn't be European style blitzkrieg, but along the rivers, railways and in coastal middle China, there could be war of maneuver.

3. I also think (but that's only my opinion): there are too many railways in then 3d world country China (see my older post in this tread for historical details) I know sometimes they do represent rivers (like the Weihe/Weiho from Sian to Lanchow).

But there is my problem: By doing so, sometimes you transform an obstacle into an traffic artery. And by the way, was this "railization" also done in other parts of the world (Russia)?

Perhaps we should wait for the playtesters experience with the new map of China.

Regards





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