quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

I vote for at least three flooded hexsides.  As presently depicted, the two flooded hexsides deny Japan only a single hex (the one SE of Changchow).  The third hexside downstream would deny them two, which seems more in keeping with the devastation.

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I vote against a pale blue 'old Yellow River' because it confuses the issue.  Players are likely to expect some sort of combat bonus from it.  If you feel it is important to mark the old route, something completely original is needed, such as double dashed lines.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

And you might consider relocating the resource within the hex so it does not look like it is named Lake Hungtse.[;)]

Patrice has marked up an old map. A more recent version shows the resource (phosphates) moved to Tsingkow, which has been re-named Haichow.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

Well, 2 seems the right number in regards to the map Wosung showed me.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

Well, 2 seems the right number in regards to the map Wosung showed me.

Presently you have drawn two-and-a-half hexsides, so it is only a matter of half-a-hexside more to make a meaningful obstacle.

I have read the Hsu book (both the full edition and the abridged version) and remember it as pretty turgid and unreliable, so I do not think it would be a good source in this case. His maps are only sketches.

More significant is Wikipedia's statement that 54,000 sq km were flooded. If the diameter of a hexagon is 90 km, then the area of a single hex must be about 7000 sq km, implying that the total floods caused by the diversion were equivalent to seven or eight entire hexes. So I think asking for a third hexside is rather a modest request!

As Wikipedia says: "The flood submerged millions of homes, and since they were not informed beforehand, the majority of people did not have time to flee".

quote:

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Also, my maths was wrong.  The area of a regular hexagon of diameter 90km is only 5261 sq km.  That is to say, the area flooded initially was equivalent to more than ten hexagons.  Even accounting for some dissipation, that surely merits at least three hexsides.

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ORIGINAL: wosung
Bottom line: Best solution would probably be a 3rd lake hex only for the first half of the war. If this is not possible both remaining options (3rd hex yes/no) are equally "historical". And it would be up to playtesting to decide the issue.

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ORIGINAL: wosung
This is the Schenke map for 1938. (The flooded area is in the centre of the picture).
[image]local://upfiles/17426/9B1CBCEE613F4577B57F7A5D576959B1.gif[/image]

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Frankly, I think that either 1, 2 or 3 hexsides of lake on this flooded area will make absolutely no difference to the war in China in MWiF.
I think that because the war in China in MWiF is fought along the railways that allow to advance toward the heart of China (Chungking, Lanchow), and I believe that the Chinese that will try to defend at Chenchow will find himself quickly outflanked from the north, surrounded and destroyed. He will loose 2 corps in the first turn of the game, and this will open the road for Japan to conquer Sian easily, and maybe more. So I think that no Chinese in his right mind will defend here. The place is still undefendable, with or without the lake hexsides.
I am for adding them, just for the historical accuracy.

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can anyone answer a few general questions on the maps please? Apologies if these have been covered previously - I am relatively new to this forum.

Is the idea to have a complete map of the world or will the map be broken into sections like the board game?  Either way I guess the map(s) will be erm..big.  How easy will it be to flick from say the pacific to Europe and all the sea zones in between? 

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How will the Commonwealth player know he has a complete chain of convoys?  Will there be a system to advise if say the route from Oz to UK is incomplete or will he/she just automatically receive a surprisingly low number of resource points next turn?

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How close are we to getting finalised maps?  What if any parts of the world have been "signed off" as being finalised?

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

As far as I know :

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ORIGINAL: warspite1

Can anyone answer a few general questions on the maps please? Apologies if these have been covered previously - I am relatively new to this forum.

Is the idea to have a complete map of the world or will the map be broken into sections like the board game?  Either way I guess the map(s) will be erm..big.  How easy will it be to flick from say the pacific to Europe and all the sea zones in between? 

1 clic.
Or a few mouse wheel rolling.
Very easy.

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How will the Commonwealth player know he has a complete chain of convoys?  Will there be a system to advise if say the route from Oz to UK is incomplete or will he/she just automatically receive a surprisingly low number of resource points next turn?

How does he know in the paper game ?
He can know the same here, except that the game shows him the global map, and the number of convoys in each sea area, so he don't have to count.
Also, the player can at any moment enter the production dialog that shows him his future production. The result of the shipping of resources is seen here.

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How close are we to getting finalised maps?  What if any parts of the world have been "signed off" as being finalised?

As far as I know, the map are finalised completely.
All parts of the world have been "signed off" as being finalised.
But, I think Steve is still open to corrections that may be blatantly wrong (they have to be real wrong and embarrasing for him to change the rivers and coastlines that need lot of work to change), and I think that minor changes such as the positions of resources, cities, ports, labels, rails, alpine hexsides can still be looked at and done as they need 0 work from him (all from me).
But if no problems are found and no suggestion made, the map is finished.

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ORIGINAL: Fishbed

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: wosung

Peking/Peiping: For the background, Fishbed absolutely is right. This is a deeply political issue between contending factions. But for MWIF both names work (see my post 396)

“Peiping” represents the retrospective and contemporary acknowledgment of KMT Nanking Government as Chinese Governement. Peking was renamed in 1929, after it was occupied by KMT National Revolutionary Army. Nanking has been made KMT capital in 1927, after Canton and Wuhan. Until then the Western powers reckognized the Chinese political faction which controlled Peking as Government of the Republic China (and granted finacial aid to it). KMT Nanking goverment practically was international reckognized, but in a subtle affront towards the antiimperialist Nanking Governement the foreign powers didn’t move their embassies to Nanking. After the Japanese took and raped Nanking in 1937 the KMT rhetoric of Peiping/Nanking obviously even symbolically didn’t made much sense any more.


The Japanese puppet regimes used “Peiping” for their main capital once again became Nanking. The Japanese just wanted Wang Jingwei to substitute Chiang Kaisheks Regime as republic of China. Thus they hijacked, or shall we say Shanghaied, the former use of names. The Japanese themselves pronounced Peiping the Japanese way: probably Hokuhei.

Not sure about Yennan Communist.


Yellow River: As I’ve written before (Posts 554, 560), Chinese wartime maps depict swaps in the flooded area south of Kaifeng. So 1-2 swamp hexes there or S of Chengchow could be warranted. According to one of my sources (P554) there was some military impact of this for the rest of the war. But the flooded area didn’t stop all fighting. I’ve no data about, say, fording problems of divisional formations in the flooded area from 1939 to 1945. Concerning the request of “pretty compelling evidence” (of swamps, etc.): Until now, it seems, all of us have collected more data and sources about Yellow River than on any other river on the map.
Regards

I like using Peiping since, based on my reading of the posts here, that was the generally accepted name. However, if using that name is politically controversial, we should stay with Peking - as in WIF FE.

Thanks for the informations Wosung :)

Shannon, about the possible political aspect of the question, I'd like just to underline that Chinese RPC historiography does acknowledge the use of Beiping/Peiping instead of Beijing/Peiking for this period. My very official RPC Chinese history book (Bai Shouyi's An historical outline history of China) does make an extensive and unlimited use of Beiping/Peiping in the narration, even though this was a name chosen by the KMT-controlled Republic - BUT the Communist Party considering itself an heir to the original Republic of China as much as KMT does, they couldn't do otherwise but acknowledge an official name change that happened in June 1928 while the CCP was still part of the republican united front, only a couple months before the bloody scission on August 1928.

Briefly, just be re-assured turning Peiking into Peiping will not hurt any sensitivity - that's commonly accepted Chinese history stuff our RPC readers will not criticize.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

3rd and last in the series of maps provided by Wosung.

This one is circa 1944 and is focused on the area north of Kaifeng, which is in the bottom center. You can see the flooded area, which looks like a lake here, exiting off the bottom center of the map. The scale of this map is roughly comparable to the first one in this series of 3.

The northward flow of the Yellow River is a broken/dashed river line running from north of Kaifeng to the upper right edge of the map.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/A980032F9DDC40AFB2F88FF0632B61B9.jpg[/image]

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

So ?

2 or 3 flooded hexsides ?

If I base a decision on the fact that I generaly prefer the map modifications stay minimalistic, I'd say 2.
If I base a decision on the fact that I think that either 2 or 3 is as useless in terms of hampering the Japanese, I'd say 2 too.

So ?

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Well, here is a screen shot of a map you sent me back in June of 2006. It shows the Yellow River running on a different path to the sea, not linking up with Hai Ho. I think we need to change the proposed hexesides that the river follows to the sea.

From the second of the 3 maps that Wosung sent me, it appears that the flooded area was mostly on the north-south axis and once the river turned eastwards it became 'normal' size in width. I would propose that the hexside between Kaifeng and Chengchow be a river hexside and the next 2 hexsides be lake hexsides. The remaining hexsides for the river flowing into the sea would be river hexsides.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Well, here is a screen shot of a map you sent me back in June of 2006. It shows the Yellow River running on a different path to the sea, not linking up with Hai Ho. I think we need to change the proposed hexesides that the river follows to the sea.

From the second of the 3 maps that Wosung sent me, it appears that the flooded area was mostly on the north-south axis and once the river turned eastwards it became 'normal' size in width. I would propose that the hexside between Kaifeng and Chengchow be a river hexside and the next 2 hexsides be lake hexsides. The remaining hexsides for the river flowing into the sea would be river hexsides.

Steve, on that map the Huai river is not represented, so you can't say that the Yellow River don't link with it.
Moreover, this map shows that the southern Yellow River course goes midway between Nanking and Suchow, which is precisely where the Huai is. So I think that this map shows the Yellow linking with the Huai, simply the Huai name is not written.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Well, here is a screen shot of a map you sent me back in June of 2006. It shows the Yellow River running on a different path to the sea, not linking up with Hai Ho. I think we need to change the proposed hexesides that the river follows to the sea.

From the second of the 3 maps that Wosung sent me, it appears that the flooded area was mostly on the north-south axis and once the river turned eastwards it became 'normal' size in width. I would propose that the hexside between Kaifeng and Chengchow be a river hexside and the next 2 hexsides be lake hexsides. The remaining hexsides for the river flowing into the sea would be river hexsides.

Steve, on that map the Huai river is not represented, so you can't say that the Yellow River don't link with it.
Moreover, this map shows that the southern Yellow River course goes midway between Nanking and Suchow, which is precisely where the Huai is. So I think that this map shows the Yellow linking with the Huai, simply the Huai name is not written.

That's good news. I hate to have more changes.

Then my comment still applies, of the 8 new 'wet' hexsides, only the 2nd and 3rd should be lake hexsides.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Patrice has sent me graphics for this and I'll try to make those changes today. Once done, I'll post them.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is the result. A couple more names can be added: for the old river course and the lake SE of Lake Hungtse.