RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (Full Version)

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Twotribes -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 7:04:41 PM)

Following is the German and soviet Experience/Morale/Leader ratings

I did the Germans from 39 and started the Soviet in 41.

German/ Soviet

exp/morale/leader rating per year

39 55/75/70 not checked
40 65/75/75 not checked
41 70/70/75 60/65/65
42 70/65/75 65/65/65 Note the German morale dropped
43 70/70/75 70/70/65
44 65/70/75 70/75/70
45 65/65/70 70/75/70

Except the 39 value all were checked in June of the effected year ( 39 was September)

Unless one takes elite units there is little difference between German and Soviet forces.



Twotribes -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 7:35:59 PM)

I prefer to start in September 39 with Germany. This means I have 4 battles before the invasion of the Soviet Union in June 41 ( 5 if I cheat and change to North Africa for one battle in or around 4/41) which means that at the start of Barbarossa I have managed to upgrade my motorized companies to mechanized and I have probably managed to buy a couple platoons of Pz III H's.

With the new experience morale and Leader Values for the Soviets my units are generally inferior to the Soviets now since only a few units in each battle gain experience. I just find it hard to believe even ignoring my play style and say choosing to start in 1941 that the Soviets are so close to the German Regular army in skill. And I fail to understand why the morale of the German army drops from 75 in 40 to 70 in 41 and then 65 in 42? Other than as a means to "even" out the Soviet forces to them.

Add to that, the machine gun and rifle fire can and does cause suppression on tanks and turretted vehicles, weapons that have no chance of penetrating the hull can cause serious suppression on these vehicles. The germans will break sooner and maybe rally a little faster. The numbers do not add up to the actual effects and actual events of Summer 41 or summer 42, in my opinion.



FlashfyreSP -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 7:50:17 PM)

Perception isn't necessarily reality. Perception is that Germany had the better forces; reality is that Germany underestimated the fighting abilities of the Russians. Luck, exceptional Leadership, and better tactics gave Germany it's initial successes; once the Eastern Front began to grind away at this, and as the Russians learned the lessons of mechanized warfare, the German success rate dropped.

The game doesn't, and shouldn't, account for strategic aspects of the historical conflict. It's not built to recreate the results of the war, but to allow exploration of it. Who would want to ever play a true recreation, knowing that they would always lose? The game is more about the player's tactical skill at using his forces, not just who had the bigger gun.



Alby -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 7:59:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Following is the German and soviet Experience/Morale/Leader ratings

I did the Germans from 39 and started the Soviet in 41.

German/ Soviet

exp/morale/leader rating per year

39 55/75/70 not checked
40 65/75/75 not checked
41 70/70/75 60/65/65
42 70/65/75 65/65/65 Note the German morale dropped
43 70/70/75 70/70/65
44 65/70/75 70/75/70
45 65/65/70 70/75/70

Except the 39 value all were checked in June of the effected year ( 39 was September)

Unless one takes elite units there is little difference between German and Soviet forces.



you are missing some ratings here it appears.

these ratings are all subjective, and will never please everyone, and forever be a topic of debate.

anyway...

German Troop experience
39-45
55/65/70/70/70/65/65

Soviet 39-45
50/55/60/65/70/70/70


I see some differences here?
In 1941-42 the Germans are superior to the Russians.
then came Stalingrad, by 43 the Russian Soldiers were just as good as the German soldier.
am I missing something?

as you see early in the war, the Soviets are behind the Germans, but eventually catch and pass them.

Last discussion by me on the ratings, everyone will never agree or be happy about them.
[:D]



Twotribes -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 8:18:53 PM)

Explain please, why the loss in Morale from 40 to 41 and again from 41 to 42 in the German Army?

As for luck? I seriously doubt one can attribute luck to an army for nearly 2 years. The vast majority of german tanks in 41 were armed with 37 mm yet they managed to beat the better gunned and armored Soviet tanks consistantly from 41 to 43. I would say that would be training , morale and leadership. Morale is exactly the same for the German and soviet forcs starting in 42 with the Soviets getting the edge by 44.

Experience is only 10 points different in 41, meaning half the german force and half the Soviet force will have a similiar level of experience unless you changed the way the game randomly assigns a number as experience.

In 42 the difference is 5 points. The Soviets were no where near equal to the Germans in 42, unless we again attribute 6 or more months of fighting as having been pure luck.

While this is a game and the weapon systems were generally at par or better for the Soviets in the early years, the reality of the war is that SOMETHING made them not preform at that ability. This game uses experience, morale and leadership to make the difference. I would argue that 41 and 42 differences are not going to allow a noticable difference in the armies. Especially the Morale.

Leadership remains higher for the Germans the whole war except in 45 when they equal each other. That would seem to be alright.



Alby -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 8:27:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Explain please, why the loss in Morale from 40 to 41 and again from 41 to 42 in the German Army?

As for luck? I seriously doubt one can attribute luck to an army for nearly 2 years. The vast majority of german tanks in 41 were armed with 37 mm yet they managed to beat the better gunned and armored Soviet tanks consistantly from 41 to 43. I would say that would be training , morale and leadership. Morale is exactly the same for the German and soviet forcs starting in 42 with the Soviets getting the edge by 44.

Experience is only 10 points different in 41, meaning half the german force and half the Soviet force will have a similiar level of experience unless you changed the way the game randomly assigns a number as experience.

In 42 the difference is 5 points. The Soviets were no where near equal to the Germans in 42, unless we again attribute 6 or more months of fighting as having been pure luck.

While this is a game and the weapon systems were generally at par or better for the Soviets in the early years, the reality of the war is that SOMETHING made them not preform at that ability. This game uses experience, morale and leadership to make the difference. I would argue that 41 and 42 differences are not going to allow a noticable difference in the armies. Especially the Morale.

Leadership remains higher for the Germans the whole war except in 45 when they equal each other. That would seem to be alright.


are you talking troop morale or leader morale???
German Leader morale actually goes up from 41-42
Nort Africa is figured in the ratings as well, not just Eastern Europe dont forget.
Also would your morale go up or down if you thought you had won the war and now suddenly were told you had to invade the Soviet Union!
anyway as stated these ratings are subjective and will never please evryone.

I really hate trying to copy things or edit anything in this new forum format BTW!!!
[:@]




m10bob -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 8:34:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Speaking of the "Ivan" juggernaut.

Just checked the Fire Control and Range Finder numbers on German and Soviet Tanks and Tank Destroyers. They are pretty much the same, the early German Tanks through Pz III E all have FC 4 and RF 2

The Pz III G to M have FC 4 and RF 3

All early Soviet tanks have FC 4 and RF 2 Except one very early T-28 model with a 1 for RF.

All but one model of T-34 have FC 4 and RF 3

All but one model of KV-1 have FC 4 and RF 3 By 44 most Soviet tanks have 4/4 or 4/5 so the 4/6 and 4/7 of the germans is not noticable then either.

Basicly since the crew morale and training have been upped also there is no difference between German and Soviet tanks, well except that historicly the Germans beat the better armored and gunned Soviet Tanks in the first year with little problem.

I would advice anyone playing the Germans NOT to be historical.


The true test of a unit's ability to fight isn't these values; it's the Experience and Skill ratings of the commanders. Russian tanks had gun sights and rangefinding equipment, just like the German tanks did. They both had rangefinding equipment; while the Russian gear was not as high-quality as the German gear, it worked, and the Russians got good at using them.

This has been the trouble with the game over the years; using these stats to artificially "balance" the sides, in response to a lot of "perceived" history. Remember too that the base game code was SPIII, a modern-era game, which was built to cover units from WWII through the 21st Century. That means that these ratings, above 3 or 4, are approaching modern-day tanks with onboard computers and laser rangefinders. The ratings are an abstract value representing the technology of the period; don't read too much into them, or make the mistake of thinking that each increase in the number is a samll improvement in technology or quality. These ratings, for the most part, are subjective.

Edited for sentence structure error.



I question the Soviet optics right into 1945 as ever being near the quality of Zeiss Ikon..(This was the brand used in German equipment) and in its' day was considered the best in the world.
Zeiss Ikon lost its' quality when the factory was absorbed into East Germany and the factory became a real crapfest. Ask anybody who knew cameras and lenses in the early fifties.



Twotribes -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 8:59:21 PM)

There are 3 listed stats.

Experience....... the German and Soviets are only 10 points apart on this in 41 and only 5 points apart in 42. The way the game assigns experience is a random spread around the base number. I dont remember if the spread is 5 points each way or 10 points.

Lets assume 5 points each way. This means the Germans will have 65 to 75 experience , if random is done correctly the average will be half above 70, half below 70. The Soviets will have a force which ranges from 55 to 65. Again half above 60 and half below 60. This means that roughly half the two armies will be nearly the same experience level.

Fine it is subjective, but you cant convince me that the Soviet Army in 41 and most of 42 was nearly as well trained as the German Army.

Morale............... Due to the loss of morale in 41 from 40 and again a loss in 42 from 41, the German and Soviet Army have the same morale as each other in 42 and 43 with the soviets gaining the edge in 44 and 45. Again I argue that in the 2 years 41 and 42 the soviets did not historically present a face to the world that would make one believe that for the whole war both forces were basicly equal in resolve and ability of individual squads and vehicles to take fire and not break. Nor that the Soviets were as quick to recover in 41 and 42 once broken This is even more important then Experience. It is used to determine ( as I understand it) whether or not a unit falters or breaks and ceases to be effective in combat until rallied ( which as I understand it takes the leadership rating to do)

The third stat is leadership........... Again the difference between german and soviet leadership numbers are small 10 points in 41, 42 and 43. 43 isnt a problem on any of the numbers, it is clear that by 43 the Soviets had learned their lessons and were able to stand toe to toe with most of the German army. In 41 though , with the manner in which combat occurs the small difference means Soviet forces will rally nearly as fast as German forces. I argue this simply is not the case. Sure the Soviet forces were rallied AFTER a battle was over ( those not trapped in a pocket somewhere) but experience and morale are exactly what gave the Germans the edge with lesser equipment.

The combined effects of making nearly all tanks the same in Fire Control and Range Finder AND making the Experience and Morale nearly the same, is that the Soviet Army will put up a tougher fight then they did historicly.

I dont play this game to see if a PZ III E is equal to a T-34... it wasnt. But in 41 the Germans used them and the Pz 35 and PZ 38 and won against the T-34 because of training ( experience) and Morale.

Believe me, if the individual playing the Germans doesnt use his tanks right against T-34's even if the morale and experience are closer to the reality of the day, he will lose. As it is now, instead of 2 years of winning the germans face 2 years that they were succesful in with losses.

The Soviet advantage was NOT training and morale in 1941 or even 42, it was numbers and better equipment.( sans optics and radios).

The Soviets had good morale, dont get me wrong, BUT the Germans had a lot better and this game now does not reflect that.



FlashfyreSP -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 9:41:12 PM)

Again, I ask: Do you want a true-to-history recreation of every battle, or something to explore possible outcomes?
You sound as if you believe that the Russian force should consistently lose from 41-42 because of their equipment and their tactics, not their failed strategic actions. A battle can be won, and many have been won, by soldiers on the field, but the campaign can be lost by the generals and civilians who direct them.

There is more to this than just the Eastern Front as well. These ratings must address events in other theaters, as well as the home front. Morale, for example, isn't limited to just what happens to a soldier in the field; it's also affected when he gets that "Dear Johann" letter, or hears his mother has been killed in an air raid. Cumulative effects and all that...



Twotribes -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 10:09:10 PM)

I want a historical game. One that as accurately as possible reflects the reality of the time. The Soviets were neither as well trained nor as effective as the game depicts, especially in the years 41 and 42.

Anyone with half a brain knows that the Soviet T-34 was a better tank then the German tanks at least until they got to the 75 mm gun ( and then its armor was still all around better) Something else has to account for the victories that the Germans made, made on a tactical level.

The game assigns in the campaign mode near equal forces unless one tampers with the settings. My complaint is that the Tanks and other Armored vehicles fight better than they ever did. It has nothing to do with tactics or strategic concerns ( this game is not strategic). The combination of making the tanks nearly identical in optics and Fire control AND making the Experience and Morale nearly the same so early in the war means that while you have made the Soviets more balanced you have thrown out any resemblence to history.

Soviet Tanks simply were not crewed with troops as experienced or capable nor with optics and fire control as the versions since the mid 7.what ever has made them.

There were of course exceptions, but they were few and far between in 41 and 42.

I dont necassarily want to win every battle. But I dont want to get beaten by troops that didnt exsist. As I have stated, poor tactics on the players part will lead to losses even in 41 and 42 with more accurate reflections of the Soviet troops and optics.

For game purposes you have made the Soviets more able to hold their own. That is nice if one wants to play with what if's but it total skews the reality of the actual war.

But it is unimportant, I understand where your coming from. I will make adjustments as I can in my games when I play. But please dont pretend this is an accurate representation of WW2 on the eastern front especially in 41 and 42.



Alby -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 10:21:07 PM)

The Soviets are 10 points less in troop experience than the Germans in 40, 41, and 5 points less in 42
are you saying the Germans are not better "enough" ?






FlashfyreSP -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 10:36:34 PM)

I pretend nothing. I see no problem with the ratings as they have been set for this Mod. Testing showed that the Soviet forces are able to actually fight in battles, not spend most of them running away as in the past. If the Germans had such an easy time of it, why didn't they reach Moscow before winter? Why were they unable to break out of Stalingrad?

Please don't pretend that every German soldier and tanker was a "superman" and that Russians couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag, and then tell me that's an accurate reflection of the entire war.



Alby -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 10:57:33 PM)

side note:
anyone who doesnt agree with ratings, 6 of us spent about 3 months on these.
disucussion went back and forth, these are what we came up with.
Raising some numbers caused the arty delay times to become skewed, lowering some made troops not fight.
Its easy to just look at numbers and dispute them until you actually start messing with them.

Also, anyone can use the "Mech Edit" program we used to adjust them to their hearts content.
we did best we could.
[:)]



Major Destruction -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 11:08:10 PM)

Twotribes makes some interesting comments. Based on the numbers that he has retreived from the Game and his assumptions, his argument is realistic and convincing.

However, the Game uses data that it does not report back to the Player including the Leadership and Troop Morale and Experience values and National characteristics; all of which affect each shot fired.

The terms 'experience' and 'morale' are simple words whose definitions are easy to find in any dictionary but in relation to the Game, these words gain a looser meaning.
'Experience' could be defined as the ability of the unit to score a hit on a target - or to avoid being hit by an incoming shot.
'Morale' could be defined as the willingness of a unit to continue to fight.

The combination of the two values plus the National Characteristic will determine how the unit performs. Certainly, taken alone, a 10 point difference is not great.

Secondly, SPWAW is a model of combat at the tactical or squad level. Strategic considerations do not enter into the model.

So where history tells us that German troops were able to defeat the Soviet armies in 1941 for whatever reasons, this was as much a result of strategy and good staff work, not to mention the shortcomings of the other side.

The individual soldier armed with his personal weapon was equally dangerous to the man in his sights regardless of which army he served. It is this that the Game attempts to model.

In places where the Soviets attempted to stop the German advance, the fighting was violent and casualties significant.
German generals devised methods to avoid these clashes and to advance through avenues that were less well defended; to encircle Soviet divisions and to force their surrender.
It is the former that we play out in our game and not the latter.






junk2drive -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 11:22:37 PM)

From what I have read over the years the ratings are on a 100 point scale. It is easy to think that 50 is the middle. IIRC countries at 50 won't make for a very good battle. IMO all the nations should be around 70 (or 80) and the plus and minus kept to within 5 (or 10) points of that. MO is based on making a playable GAME.
A player can still monkey around in the preference screen to adjust his enemy.



Twotribes -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/4/2006 11:31:45 PM)

Ok since I said what I dont like, let me point out that overall the enhanced version is a fine product. Good work by all that gave their time and effort to make it what it is. The reality is not everyone will ever like everything. Obviously I like the game or I wouldnt be in here pointing out what I consider problems.

Anyone that continues to improve the game has my vote of thanks. I really like the way the AI appears to work differently. Before basicly you could set up to defend the middle of the map and reasonable expect that the bulk of ( depending on size of map and points spent) the AI forces to charge down the middle. Now it is a matter of figureing out which avenue it will take.

New OOB are always nice. And new equipment. If I gave the impression I was unhappy with anyone that spent their time making this, that wasnt my intent. I simply disagree on certain points.



FlashfyreSP -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/5/2006 12:33:24 AM)

On the ratings range, it runs to 150 for Experience, and 244 for Morale. So 70 is just a little below average for EXP. 



junk2drive -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/5/2006 1:00:00 AM)

I figured that I didn't know what the heck I was talking about [:D] but that someone that does know could not resist to respond with the correct numbers.

Thanks [&o]

On a 100 scale my post would make more sense but whether 0-100 or 500-1000 there has to be a starting point where the game can function. Too low a number for major nations will screw up the numbers for the lesser nations.



Alby -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/5/2006 1:02:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

I figured that I didn't know what the heck I was talking about [:D] but that someone that does know could not resist to respond with the correct numbers.

Thanks [&o]

On a 100 scale my post would make more sense but whether 0-100 or 500-1000 there has to be a starting point where the game can function. Too low a number for major nations will screw up the numbers for the lesser nations.


Thats why we picked a certain number we would not start below, and if we went too high the arty delays got ridiculous...[X(]
[:)]



pbhawkin1 -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/5/2006 5:18:36 AM)

Hi,
In the Russian OOb I cant find the Stuart light tank anymore. Has it been deleted as a lend lease item (there are Matildas, Valentines and Grants)?



Alby -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/5/2006 5:41:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbhawkins

Hi,
In the Russian OOb I cant find the Stuart light tank anymore. Has it been deleted as a lend lease item (there are Matildas, Valentines and Grants)?

Under misc menu
"lend lease" formations
July 42-45
perhaps you had year it wasnt available?



pbhawkin1 -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/5/2006 7:02:03 AM)

YOU are correct[:)]
I was looking in Kuly 1941[8|]
thanks



264rifle -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/5/2006 2:08:58 PM)

Chiming in here a little late.

Flash, Just what rangefinding equipment dd these tanks have besides the eyeball, MK I[&:]

At best, to my uncertain knowledge, they had a stadiametric (fancy word for a tapered V etched in sight, usually with curved side/s. place object of known size into the V so it touched both sides a read off the range.) rangefinder. Many tanks did not have this.

Twotribes: part of the problem is force mix or dreaded rarity factor. Germans achieved many of their victories against T-26 and BT series tanks. What percentage of the Russian tanks did the T-34 and KVs make up in 1941 5%-7%?
See histories for the problems caused by even small groups of these tanks. ANd what the Germans sometimes used to stop them, like divisional artillery. That means 105 mm howitzers (using APHE rounds not heat) or 75mm and 100mm feildguns. When tanks have penetrated your lines to where the divisional artillery was REALLY sited as oppossed to our games (try 1 to 2 entire game maps to the rear) I am not sure that qualifies as a "little difficulty"

Another problem is the command and control problem. The game players have too much control over their units vrs real life. This goes for all nations but especially countries like Russia and the minor countries. The LACK of radios ment that attack plans were simple in the extreme and NOT subject to change during the attack. Tank "A" spots a group of AT guns in the woods to it's right??? Tank "A" has NO WAY to tell platoon commander or company commander. Even if Tank "A" could notifiy Company commander The company commander has NO WAY (short of trying to wave signal flags) to issue new orders (even "turn right and shoot at the trees") to the rest of the tanks in the company. This resulted in Russian tank units bypassing German units that then shot them up from the side or rear. Not a fun Game.

To Get the game to truely represent combat on the eastern front in 1941 The Russian side would almost have to be given ALL it's orders at the start of the game. All destinations for mobile units, ALL fire missions for Artillery (hexes and turns on which to fire) and then let the game play out. Not much fun[>:]

Note that this "problem" might work better on the defence than on the offence. Sound like what really happened a little better[&:]

Trying to simulate this lack of communtication using morale, experience , and even leadership ratings leads to the subjective problems the gamers have been arguing about.

Again trying to balance a game that is FUN or at least interesting to play vrs Historic just might not possiable.[:(]



FlashfyreSP -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/5/2006 4:52:38 PM)

As an example, the T-34 had a TOD-6 x2.5 telescopic sight, later replaced by the TMFD sight. In 1942, T34s were often driven straight from the plants to the front lines and were without gunsights. Hard to do this in the gaem without creating a new unit with 0 Rangefinding.

Note that I am not saying that Russian optics were equal to the German gear; far from it. Much of the Russian production of optic glass was substandard; still, crews learned to use them as best they could. Good gunners became adept at gauging range and angles, as did commanders.

However, in game terms the Ratings used are mostly an abstraction of the overall ability of that particular Unit Class when compared to other Unit Classes. With a limited range of values that the game code recognizes (0-9, IIRC from Mike), a difference of 1 is huge. So the Tank ratings are higher than those of, say, an SP Gun, because the tank has things besides just the optics that work in its favor for Fire Control and Rangefinding. These ratings are an amalgamation of various factors; things like turret traverse mechanism, vehicle stability, weapon mount, as well as optics and others.



Alby -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/6/2006 1:20:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbhawkins

YOU are correct[:)]
I was looking in Kuly 1941[8|]
thanks


Kuly??
you really were looking in the wrong month!
[:D]
[;)]



soldier -> RE: A few more questions and comments about the Enhanced OOB's (6/6/2006 4:13:26 PM)

If your not happy with the current ratings Two Tribes, you can use DesertRats Program to change them. He also has a patch of the H2H values which are slightly tougher on the soviets from 41 to 43.



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