Removing all offboard artillery (Full Version)

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o4r -> Removing all offboard artillery (6/3/2006 5:43:36 PM)

Yes, I know there is alot of arugment on this matter, Bill explained before... ya I understand.

Since I normally spend my time playing with AI, I thought of removing all the off board artillery.

To my surprise, even if I set all the off board artillery to 1949, the computer AI still able to purchase one battery of off board artillery?

Has anybody try this? It seem like the computer has another purchase menu.



Alby -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/3/2006 5:49:47 PM)

There are certain formations the AI uses, some artillery might be hidden in a formation that isnt necessarily an artillery formation.
what nation were you playing against?



o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/3/2006 6:40:24 PM)

I used both the OOB dump and editor.

I edit all Russia OB artillery as start date 1949 and end date is 1949.

I used the battle generator to try it.  So I play German and AI is russia.  But though all OB artillery available date has changed, they kept purchasing one unti of off board 122 mm.

By the way, the 8.403 some how has made 105mm and below artillery quite useless, is there any update available for that.

Also whilst playing 8.403, I realised a old issue has arise.  I can't remember which version was that, somehow when we kept attacking a unit until it routed the next moment, it disappear.  I think the spotting problem came back.



m10bob -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/3/2006 6:56:54 PM)

quote:

By the way, the 8.403 some how has made 105mm and below artillery quite useless, is there any update available for that.


I noticed the artillery and the snipers had been reverted to Girl Scout's again, (or so it seems.)..When I began using the new Enhanced Mod, those artillery problems went away..
For whatever reason, about half of the forum community has not wanted stronger arty or better snipers, and they relentlessly make statements about how the vanilla snipers and the artillery are strong enough.
IMHO, it is also relevant about half of the forum members are civilians with no military time, to make a knowledgeable, first person experience, kind of judgement on those subjects.
It's all about individual preferances, and to quote many:"That's what the editor is for".[:D]



PimpYourAFV -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/3/2006 7:06:46 PM)


Artillery under 105mm does not cause casualties, only suppression. Over 105mm will cause light casualties if you turn the soft/hard settings to about 140 each. A lot of unstrategic players load up on tons of arty to suppress the AI so it can't fight back, and they want it non-lethal so they don't suffer casualties when the AI uses its offboard in return.



o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/3/2006 7:09:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I noticed the artillery and the snipers had been reverted to Girl Scout's again, (or so it seems.)..When I began using the new Enhanced Mod, those artillery problems went away..
".[:D]


So are you saying that the enhanced mod has solved the issue of the artillery problem? Well when I used direct fire from a ISU 152 or a KV2 vs German unit, they just stand there....



Alby -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/3/2006 7:54:07 PM)

Enhanced has not solved any artillery problems.

An attempt was made to adjust it, but did not work out in time, an adjustment is coming but can't say when.

if you use onboard artillery and place it in good range of enemy, where it becomes much more accurate, damage can be done by 105s, medium mortars and the like.

Adjust Arty to 110-120 effectiveness if you are unhappy with it.
Use snipers as snipers, meaning keep them hidden and stationary and they can be a pain in the butt.
people try to use them as scouts, moving around, then firing and thats not their purpose.




o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/3/2006 9:44:08 PM)

with 8.403. Soft target win.

I just tried a game with my friend. I played Russia and used AA gun plus AT gun plus some trucks and alot of scout and infantry.

I totally destroyed his tanks unit and the artillery isn't hurting me much..... I think this what happen with the tweak to artillery been reduced it effectiveness. Now soft target rulezz man.



KG Erwin -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/3/2006 10:17:07 PM)

About increasing arty effectiveness -- Michael is working on it, but be careful of what you wish for. 

I find that short-range indirect fire with onboard arty/mortars is quite effective.  At ranges of 300-500 yards, it is deadly.  I keep my battalion mortars very close to the frontline.  The Lt Col's personal arty (at least for the Americans) are his best friends.  

With 8.403, I use offboard arty for suppressive counterbattery fire, and sometimes on visible attacking/defending infantry.  This is its current primary role-- suppression.  

In the Pacific battles I fight, the formula is pretty much set -- suppress the enemy with fire, and then move in and destroy them with direct fire and close assault. 

I have no particular problem with offboard arty effectiveness -- you can adjust this in the preferences.   If Mike goes ahead with his plan to bump it up 20%, then we're gonna have complaints about arty dominating the battlefield and requests for limitations on support points.  I can see it coming.  



o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/3/2006 10:34:52 PM)

Now, back to the original question.

Why I removed all the off board artillery and the computer AI still can purchased Off Board Artillery.

Is there a secondary menu for the AI or simply it don't goes bythe normal rule we play?

Long ago, I also realised that when ever the AI assualt, somehow they knew where were my dug in infantry unit, and AI will bombard them.

However, if I ride my unit on any truck or tank, they will only hit the victory hex.

One thing I really hate about off board artillery is that whoever has a bigger gun longer range will always counter the one want which its range is shorter. That why I perfer to have on board. If you are good, counter me and try to spot my artillery or guess my next location. Off board counter artillery is based on alot on your range of artillery and your country experience, nothing to do with skill in sense of counter artillery.





KG Erwin -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/3/2006 10:43:40 PM)

I don't fully understand your complaints, o4r.  The AI is weak, but does handle arty well.  Why would you want to take away its one redeeming feature?

To my mind, its the great equalizer, and adds some challenge. 

I can set up a nearly perfect defense, and slaughter the enemy infantry as it approaches, but I know full well that the AI will pound me with his arty/air assets sooner or later. Is that a bad thing?   



FlashfyreSP -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/3/2006 11:16:45 PM)

The AI use a "picklist" to pick what formations to buy fro the different types of battles. These lists are not avavilable to us, as they are coded in the mech.exe, and probably haven't been checked for ages. So, yes, the AI follows a different purchasing routine than you do, o4r. And in this case, while you changed all the OB Artillery formations, you have probably missed a non-OB Artillery formation that includes an artillery section or battery.

If you want to mess around with the formations, be careful or you will cause a lot of AI force composition problems...this includes moving formations around and deleting ones. The AI often picks the same formations you do, but in accordance with it's picklist. They aren't all marked as "AI" formations.



o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/5/2006 4:10:52 PM)

I tried and found out that in Russian formation unit 115 (OB 122mm FH Bty) is a unit no matter what u do, the AI will select.

KG Erwin, let me clarify.  I wasn't complaining about the game.  I was trying to remove the OB artillery off from my own OOB and trying to find out a way to do it.  My comments is just an explaination why I hate about the OB artillery.

In 8.4 to 8.403, the AI has improved alot on using the on board artillery. 



FlashfyreSP -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/5/2006 4:25:22 PM)

The only formations that have OBA units in them that I can find are #1123 - Artillery Btry, #1124 - Artillery Btln, and #1129 - AI Arty. With all three of these deleted, you shouldn't be seeing any off-map 122mm artillery.



o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/5/2006 4:35:11 PM)

Nahhh... It won't work.  I have tried.  Unit 115 is a unit no matter what you change it to, AI definitely will select.

If you don't believe me, you change unit 115 to something else.  Select a random battle opposite forces as russian.  After deployment mode change immediately surrender.  You can see the Russian will purchase unit 115 even if you change it as mule.....



FlashfyreSP -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/5/2006 5:12:47 PM)

It's not a unit issue; Formation 1123 seems to be hardwired into the AI picklist no matter what the date is. You will have to delete the formation entirely if you want no OBA for your games.



o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/5/2006 7:19:01 PM)

So now if I change the Arty Btn to ++AI Atry+++ and placed on board artillery in it, the AI will choose on board artillery.

Actually how many hardwire code does the AI used?

[:D]



FlashfyreSP -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/5/2006 10:29:48 PM)

No idea. The picklists aren't common knowledge, so if the formations get messed with, it can screw up the AI force selection.

But basically, if you change the units inside that formation, the AI will always buy it.



o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/8/2006 4:41:07 PM)

One more question,  as you know I am changing the OOB to fit for myself and my friends, I have fixed most of the other nation MG, but I don't understand why GE has 2 MMG.  One for SS and one for GE normal troops.

I was a military a platoon before so I understand MG34 or 42, I actually regards it as one of the first GPMG, basically it depend on how it is mounted.

But what is the different between the 2 in the OOB for GE unit.

Does it meant that GE MMG (with belt mag) is always used on bipod and SS MMG (with belt mag) is used on tripod (HMG)?  That why the different in FC and RG?

Also does LMG in the game meant that they used the MG with 50 rds drums and assault [:D].  Thought I dunno which idiot do that but .... never mind I have redesigned it and it was accepted by my friends.

So GE MMG and SS MMG... somebody please.



Alby -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/8/2006 5:48:37 PM)

the SS MGs have +10 added for being classed "elite"
there are also SS Inf AT formations that have same.
those have been in the game for a long time now.



o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/8/2006 8:22:47 PM)

Ably not only that but the Rgf & FC  is also different for the SS MMG & GE MMG.  SS since have 1 better in Rangering optic.

I just don't understand these, we have in the weapon LMG, MMG.  Now MMG is attached as team weapon, so it is in place of either SS MMG or GE MMG and they have both Rgf & FC.  So if they are heavy mount, both rightfully should have the same Rgf and FC but why SS are 1 plus for both.  Is there anything to do with 'Elite'?

So can I assumed that actually all of them only has 2 rather the SS has 1 better?  SS having that plus 1 on both Rgf and FC is a mistake?

If that is so, it meant that  I mounted any weapon on tripod, they are assumed to be HMG or having Rgf & FC as 2.

And if I used the MG on bipod, it has no bonuses.

I am trying to design something, that why I asked these question, hope you dont mind.



Alby -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/9/2006 12:08:28 AM)

its because the SS ones are classed as HMGs I supect.
we didnt put these units in the game, as I said they have been around for long time.



FlashfyreSP -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/9/2006 3:45:17 AM)

As Alby suspects, it's a Unit Class thing. Heavy Machinegun class units get, by Programmer's Conventions, 3/3 FC/RgF.
Machinegun class units only get a 2/2.

The reason why the SS are classed HMG is nothing to do with the weapon or how they use it; it was to prevent the GE MMG unit from appearing in the SS MMG Formation, and vice versa. Units with the same class can be substituted in the same formation during purchasing, and we want to prevent the wrong MG unit from appearing for purchase in the wrong formation. We could have reversed the classing, making the GE MMG a Heavy Machinegun, but the added FC/RgF value would not have made sense with the SS unit's being lower. So, the SS MMG has a slightly better performance on the field when compared to the GE MMG unit, and this is not accounted for by the +10 Elite status bonus. That only affects Experience/Morale ratings.



o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/9/2006 5:51:05 PM)

So should we correct it back to 2/2 or 3/3?

More question, really really hope you all dont mind.

Now, Rifle and SMG was classed as prime weapon and LMG was classed as Secondary weapon.  What does that implicate?

Let asked by example.

German XX unit with 10 men,
Slot 1 Rifle
Slot 2 SMG
Slot 3 LMG
Slot 4 Grenade
Firepower = Rifle x 10 + 1 x SMG + 1 x LMG + 1 x Grenade.

or does it meant that
Firepower = Rifle x 7 + 1  x SMG + 1 x LMG + 1 x Grenade.

What happen when,
German XX unit with 10 men,
Slot 1 LMG
Slot 2 Rifle
Slot 3 SMG
Slot 4 Grenade
Firepower = 1 x LMG ( Since it is a secondary weapon) + 1 x Rifle + 1 x SMG + 1 x Grenade.

or does it meant that
Firepower = 10 x LMG + 1 x Rifle + 1 x SMG + 1 x Grenade.

or does it meant that
Firepower = 1 x LMG + 10 x Rifle + 1 x SMG + 1 x Grenade.

So What does secondary weapon meant?



FlashfyreSP -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/9/2006 6:08:22 PM)

Ok, Primer on Weapon Classes:

A Primary Infantry weapon class is assumed by the combat routine to be carried by each memeber of the Unit's Crew. When fired, checks are made to determine how many men in the Crew actually fire their personal weapon. Fire effects are calculated for each man that fires.
A Secondary Infantry weapon is assumed to be only one weapon in the entire unit. Fire effects are calculated for one weapon.

Placing a Primary Infantry classed weapon into any Weapon Slot other than #1 tells the program that only one man is using it.





o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/9/2006 6:20:54 PM)

OK, how about placing a secondary weapon on a slot 1, does the program still fire the weapon as a one man weapon or uses the whole squad? 

By the way, what do you mean the computer check whether how many fire the weapon?  Does it meant that if a primary weapon is placed in slot 1 and slot 2 to 4 is occupied with another weapon, the total number of 3 men will be deleted and the rest (based on suppression, morale and experience) then fire the weapon for the primary example.

Unit XX 10 men
Slot 1 Primary weapon
Slot 2 XX weapon
Slot 3 xx weapon
Slot 4 No weapon

So 10 - 2 (2 slot has weapon) = 8 X 1 primary weapon + 1 x slot 2 weapon + 1 x slot 3 weapon = firepower?



Alby -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/9/2006 8:10:01 PM)

     Fire effectiveness of infantry primary weapons in slots 2 to 4 have been reduced, unless the firing unit passes a special experience check.  This reduction always applied to infantry primary weapons in slot 1, but the code assumed that none of these would be found in later slots.  The experience check for slot one assumed some troops would be goofing off, drinking tea or for some other reason, would not be firing effectively.  This limitation now applies to these primary infantry weapons in other slots, as it is assumed that these would be fired by ammo carriers, squad leaders or some one else who might be otherwise occupied.  Secondary or crewed weapons are handled in a different part of the code.



o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/9/2006 8:23:39 PM)

So that is to say,

If a group of 4 men
slot 1 SMG
slot 2 rifle
slot 3 lmg
slot 4 grenade.

The program still consider that the group fires 4 SMG, and the program will let one of them fire a rifle, one of them a LMG and the last one throw a grenade.

Will I create a stupid unit like
a group of 4 men
slot 1 LMG (secondary weapon)
slot 2 LMG (secondary weapon) or smg (primary weapon)
slot 3 LMG (secondary weapon) or rifle (primary weapon)
slot 4 LMG (secondary weapon)

all of them only fire once[:D]

By the way, you didnt read my correction for OOB.... I thought I got that right...... isn't it deserve a change...



FlashfyreSP -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/9/2006 9:15:41 PM)

Change what you want for your mod. Do whatever you fell like; test it and observe the results. We debated what changes we would make for our Mod, we held polls, we made the hard decisions of what to include and what to remove.

If you want something different, that's what the ModSwapper is there for.



o4r -> RE: Removing all offboard artillery (6/10/2006 10:17:18 AM)

Execuse me, I was just asking how does the the firing system work.

I am not enforcing anybody on any mod.  I am actually making one and has been playing with a group of my friend for a long time in private too.

We have talking about this matter for a long time, somehow nobody seem to get it right, so I thought you knew.

I am not debating about what is right or wrong but asking whether if a unit with 4 men firing 4 weapon, does it meant that the 4 men will fire the primary weapon even if the 2nd to 4th slot has a weapon.  or the system will minus 3 men due to the 3 occupied slot and left 1 men firing the weapon.

How I wish Paul was back here then, he understand the program much better than us.



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