Korsun 44 scenario (Full Version)

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Motomouse -> Korsun 44 scenario (6/11/2006 11:57:52 PM)

I would like to see an AAR of this scenario, anybody interested in sharing his knowledge?

Regards
Ralph




Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 12:23:23 AM)

http://www.bug.hr/oleg/toaw/korsun44.html - written many, MANY years ago. [X(]

Oleg





Motomouse -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 1:13:49 AM)

Thanks!



Catch21 -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 3:04:17 AM)

I don't have TOAW III yet so talking COAW can only suggest hit every (available?) Soviet stack you can get your hands on with everything you've got on Turn 1 with direct artillery fire and otherwise.

They are not dug in.

Then run for your lives. They will- your lives that is- depend on how fast you can go.

And find a good place to meet up with the counterattack. Somewhere they don't expect. Maybe not the river.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 4:45:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

I don't have TOAW III yet so talking COAW can only suggest hit every (available?) Soviet stack you can get your hands on with everything you've got on Turn 1 with direct artillery fire and otherwise.

They are not dug in.

Then run for your lives. They will- your lives that is- depend on how fast you can go.

And find a good place to meet up with the counterattack. Somewhere they don't expect. Maybe not the river.


What makes you assume he's playing as German? [;)]

O.



rhondabrwn -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 5:49:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

http://www.bug.hr/oleg/toaw/korsun44.html - written many, MANY years ago. [X(]

Oleg





Now that TOAW III is out are you going to reactivate your website and bring it up to date? I see by your last entry you are eagerly waiting for Uncommon Valor and WiTP to be published. [:D]



Catch21 -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 3:31:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
What makes you assume he's playing as German? [;)]

I guess because that's the challenge. As Soviets, strategy is really very very simple.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 5:03:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff
I guess because that's the challenge. As Soviets, strategy is really very very simple.


Indeed, but the execution is NOT. This scenario, which now I think is much worse than I thought when I played it (under TOAW 1) makes any sensible mechanised campaign all but impossible. You noticed how vulnerable Soviet units are to massed bombardment on turn 1. Also, movement rates are so ridicolously low (3-4 hexes per turn) that from the very first turn game degenerates into WW1 stalemate, not the mechanized campaign of the 1944 vintage as it should be. Which makes German task much much easier than it should be.

Paradoxically, historic German problems are not simulated well too. Germans wanted to evacuate Korsun pocket. In K44 scenario you simply have to hold onto VP locations, that's all. No consideration at all is given to the historic facts and saving lives and combat worthiness of surrounded troops.

Really a very poor scenario, and excellent example of movement rates/time scale so screwed up, that the feel odf the operational level warfare is totally lost. When I played my game described in the above AAR, TOAW 1 was just released - it might be said I didn't know good scenario from a bad one then (because really good third party ones didn't start appearing yet).

Now in all honesty, I'd say playing this scenario is just a waste of time. I'd put it on the list of scenarios that should not have been released (again), without being *significantly* improved or in this case written from the scratch.

If I remember correctly (might be wrong here, relying on memory) I believe this scenario is by Doug Bevard - Talonsoft's "scenario-bot". This guy produced like 1000s of scenarios for dozens of Talonsoft games. (Apparently, believing in Stalin's maxim that quantity has a quality of it's own [:-])

But, please read my ancient AAR - it is fun in itself [;)] [:D]

Oleg



golden delicious -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 5:03:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

I guess because that's the challenge. As Soviets, strategy is really very very simple.


I'm sure there are ways of being creative as the Soviets.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 5:07:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

I guess because that's the challenge. As Soviets, strategy is really very very simple.


I'm sure there are ways of being creative as the Soviets.


With movement rates of 3 hexes per turn for most units + just one attack phase per turn, because of screwed time/space scale, it's not easy to be creative. [:D]



golden delicious -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 5:11:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

With movement rates of 3 hexes per turn for most units + just one attack phase per turn, because of screwed time/space scale, it's not easy to be creative. [:D]


You'd be surprised.

Anyway, I'm not saying its a good scenario. Just that it's generally a mistake to think that only one side in a scenario has any important decisions to make.



PDiFolco -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 5:14:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff
I guess because that's the challenge. As Soviets, strategy is really very very simple.


Indeed, but the execution is NOT. This scenario, which now I think is much worse than I thought when I played it (under TOAW 1) makes any sensible mechanised campaign all but impossible. You noticed how vulnerable Soviet units are to massed bombardment on turn 1. Also, movement rates are so ridicolously low (3-4 hexes per turn) that from the very first turn game degenerates into WW1 stalemate, not the mechanized campaign of the 1944 vintage as it should be. Which makes German task much much easier than it should be.

Paradoxically, historic German problems are not simulated well too. Germans wanted to evacuate Korsun pocket. In K44 scenario you simply have to hold onto VP locations, that's all. No consideration at all is given to the historic facts and saving lives and combat worthiness of surrounded troops.

Really a very poor scenario, and excellent example of movement rates/time scale so screwed up, that the feel odf the operational level warfare is totally lost. When I played my game described in the above AAR, TOAW 1 was just released - it might be said I didn't know good scenario from a bad one then (because really good third party ones didn't start appearing yet).

Now in all honesty, I'd say playing this scenario is just a waste of time. I'd put it on the list of scenarios that should not have been released (again), without being *significantly* improved or in this case written from the scratch.

If I remember correctly (might be wrong here, relying on memory) I believe this scenario is by Doug Bevard - Talonsoft's "scenario-bot". This guy produced like 1000s of scenarios for dozens of Talonsoft games. (Apparently, believing in Stalin's maxim that quantity has a quality of it's own [:-])

But, please read my ancient AAR - it is fun in itself [;)] [:D]

Oleg


Oleg,
BTW, as you seem to have very high standards for scenario quality, could you give a nice little list of good scenarios ?
I agree that the dark side of TOAW editor openness is that since TOAW1 we got a huge crapload of rather badly-thought, ahistorical, or unbalanced scenarios... but some gems also, the hard work is to extract them ! [:D]



Catch21 -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 6:40:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
...the hard work is to extract them![:D]

Yes! And hard work too. IMO worth it. And anyone can try it.



JAMiAM -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 7:02:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

With movement rates of 3 hexes per turn for most units + just one attack phase per turn, because of screwed time/space scale, it's not easy to be creative. [:D]

I won't disagree with the general consensus of the quality of the scenario (its balance is terrible), but you will find that low MP scenarios play a LOT better in TOAW III, than they did before. You should be able to pull off 3-4 attacks per turn, in this scenario, without thinking too hard.



Catch21 -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/12/2006 9:26:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
1) Which makes German task much much easier than it should be.
2) Germans wanted to evacuate Korsun pocket.


1) Yes. Agreed. But still some idea of how it went. And a chance.
2) Anyone (German, maybe Soviet too) would have wanted to get out of there. There's some good books on this that make for heartbreaking reading.
c.f. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korsun_Pocket

Sometimes scenarios have terrible play balance, as battles sometimes had on the day. This is one.

I've read your AAR- thank you and I'd recommend to anyone.

My point on scenario selection is maybe leave it at the end of the day to the audience. They can vote with their feet.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/13/2006 1:33:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
BTW, as you seem to have very high standards for scenario quality, could you give a nice little list of good scenarios ?
I agree that the dark side of TOAW editor openness is that since TOAW1 we got a huge crapload of rather badly-thought, ahistorical, or unbalanced scenarios... but some gems also, the hard work is to extract them ! [:D]


For early period, Todd Klemme WW1 and Balkan Wars stuff is good. Not extremelly detailed, but gives good feel for the operational warfare of the period, covers some obscure battles, etc.

Daniel McBride did include two of his desert WW2 scenarios in the final distribution if I am not wrong, and both are excellent - El Alamein and Tobruk 41. Especially Tobruk 41 - certainly superior to Crusader 41 (from the original TOAW1, still in "Classic" folder), covering the same campaign. T41 is perhaps in the Top 5 scenarios I had fun with in TOAW, of all times. McBride is one of the designers I have utmost respect for - basically if you see anything by him, play it [8D]

For WW3, Trey Marshall stuff is top notch (though I wonder why some of his fine scenarios I played since TOAW2 days are not included?). Those Trey's scenarios that are included, are good. Ecuador 95 is fun little hypothetic scenario about obscure topic.

Middle East and modern desert - there is not a single scenario that I find realistically playable or good without additional tweaking, editing and/or house rules. Of all periods and geographic areas, this one is perhaps covered in the worst possible fashion. Lots of ME scenarios, mostly bad or unplayable unless edited IMO.

Norm's own Korea, the first scenario from the first TOAW, is still one of the best introductions to the system. As far as his Nomonhan scenario goes, as I already said I prefer d'Adamo's more historic and more detailed version (not included in TOAW3).

This, of course, is not all - there are many many many scenarios I can't remember right now, or haven't even tried properly yet like Road to Moscow series, most of TDG stuff, etc (but since I didn't put them in the Garbage folder - they might well be good and playable [;)]) But the scenarios mentioned here should give anyone lots of fun for any foreseeable future.

All of the above is just my (never humble) opinion, and should be treated as such. [>:]



Terminus -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/13/2006 1:37:38 AM)

Ecuador 95 is an interesting one. It's only partly hypothetical, in the Ecuador and Peru did fight a short, nasty little war back in 1995. The scenario just takes a lot further than it went in real life.



golden delicious -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/13/2006 1:56:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Middle East and modern desert - there is not a single scenario that I find realistically playable or good without additional tweaking, editing and/or house rules. Of all periods and geographic areas, this one is perhaps covered in the worst possible fashion. Lots of ME scenarios, mostly bad or unplayable unless edited IMO.


See Steven Stevens' scenarios on this subject. They're pretty good- especially against the Arab PO.




Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/13/2006 3:59:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Middle East and modern desert - there is not a single scenario that I find realistically playable or good without additional tweaking, editing and/or house rules. Of all periods and geographic areas, this one is perhaps covered in the worst possible fashion. Lots of ME scenarios, mostly bad or unplayable unless edited IMO.


See Steven Stevens' scenarios on this subject. They're pretty good- especially against the Arab PO.



Are they in TOAW 3? If not where can they be found? I guess Rugged Defense but that means conversion [:@]

I don't even have TOAW pre-3 installed....



ralphtricky -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/13/2006 4:24:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Middle East and modern desert - there is not a single scenario that I find realistically playable or good without additional tweaking, editing and/or house rules. Of all periods and geographic areas, this one is perhaps covered in the worst possible fashion. Lots of ME scenarios, mostly bad or unplayable unless edited IMO.


See Steven Stevens' scenarios on this subject. They're pretty good- especially against the Arab PO.



Are they in TOAW 3? If not where can they be found? I guess Rugged Defense but that means conversion [:@]

I don't even have TOAW pre-3 installed....

You might see if they will load into TOAW 3 directly. I didn't test it, but I don't think that the load routines changed significantly between COW and III.

Ralph Trickey
TOAW III Programmer.




ralphtricky -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/13/2006 4:25:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Ecuador 95 is an interesting one. It's only partly hypothetical, in the Ecuador and Peru did fight a short, nasty little war back in 1995. The scenario just takes a lot further than it went in real life.

I understand that it uses multiple objective tracks too, so it should be replayable.



JAMiAM -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/13/2006 5:55:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Middle East and modern desert - there is not a single scenario that I find realistically playable or good without additional tweaking, editing and/or house rules. Of all periods and geographic areas, this one is perhaps covered in the worst possible fashion. Lots of ME scenarios, mostly bad or unplayable unless edited IMO.


See Steven Stevens' scenarios on this subject. They're pretty good- especially against the Arab PO.



Are they in TOAW 3? If not where can they be found? I guess Rugged Defense but that means conversion [:@]

I don't even have TOAW pre-3 installed....

His scenarios are available at RD, but IIRC, they use bio-edited executables, and are for CoW.



golden delicious -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/13/2006 5:11:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
His scenarios are available at RD, but IIRC, they use bio-edited executables, and are for CoW.


So far as I'm aware, the modifications to the .exe were to boost the power of the SAMs. So this wouldn't be an issue.



JAMiAM -> RE: Korsun 44 scenario (6/13/2006 6:43:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
His scenarios are available at RD, but IIRC, they use bio-edited executables, and are for CoW.


So far as I'm aware, the modifications to the .exe were to boost the power of the SAMs. So this wouldn't be an issue.

Thanks for the feedback.



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