Supply help... total newb! (Full Version)

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AstroCat -> Supply help... total newb! (6/13/2006 10:42:44 PM)

Ok, I'm trying to get in to the game but I just can't find answers to some of my questions.
I've read the manual several times and looked online.

Here's a big one... how does supply work? What do those circles with numbers in them on the map really mean?

I'm not new to wargames but I am new to TOAW, I tried it years ago but this time I'm really trying to learn the game and get in to it.

Thanks for the help! :)



JAMiAM -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/13/2006 10:50:12 PM)

Those represent the nominal re-supply rate for friendly units in the hex. This is adjusted by multiplying this number by [(2/3)*formation supply distribution efficiency] to determine the net resupply rate for an arbitrary friendly unit in the hex, subject to other modifiers as listed in the manual.



AstroCat -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/13/2006 11:11:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Those represent the nominal re-supply rate for friendly units in the hex. This is adjusted by multiplying this number by [(2/3)*formation supply distribution efficiency] to determine the net resupply rate for an arbitrary friendly unit in the hex, subject to other modifiers as listed in the manual.


Ok, what does this mean then:

Unit is on the following hex:
Unit Formation Supply: 75%
Supply Circle Icon says: 28

.66*75 = 49.5 * 28 = 1386

What is 1386?

Basically, how should I pay attention to these numbers?
It seems odd that those numbers then need the users to do all these additional calculations. I just want to know is the unit in supply, and how much in supply?

I wish there was a supply tutorial, that would help tons! :



JAMiAM -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/13/2006 11:17:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AstroCat

.66*75 = 49.5 * 28 = 1386

What is 1386?

Supply distribution is in terms of %, so that would be (49.5/100)*28=13.86=14.

Therefore, that unit, with no further modifications, would get 14 added to its supply during the next Automatic Bookkeeping Phase.



AstroCat -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/13/2006 11:19:20 PM)

So, what is the best way to think about this? Do you really need to do all those calculations to figure out your unit's suppply? And you say 14 is added to it's supply. What does that mean, 14? Where and what is 14 added to?

I really would like to know how much and what kind of attention I should pay to these supply numbers since they aren't telling the complete story.

Thanks for the help!



JAMiAM -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/13/2006 11:22:59 PM)

Select the unit, right click to being up the context menu, and choose Unit Report. Notice the information at the top of this page? The value "Supply" which generally ranges from 1-100 (but can go as high as 150 for unmoved units), is what this re-supply rate is added to. It is an important value that affects the unit in several ways, ranging from combat strength to movement allowance.

My quota of easy answers is used up for the next couple of hours, so you'll have to read the manual for more details...[;)]



AstroCat -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/13/2006 11:33:58 PM)

Ok, thanks for the help. So that is the number that is added to the Supply % for the unit.
By the way none of that is listed as such in the manual.

I still don't understand why it has to be so cryptic. Why not just tell the player what is really going on and let the computer do the calculations? Why not just have the hex number tell the user what the final result is?

Do people really play like that? That doesn't seem fun at all, more like doing a budget!

It seems odd that I would have to break the gameplay to get out the calculator and figure out if my units will be in supply.

There has to be a better way than that!?!



Chuck2 -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/13/2006 11:46:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AstroCat

I still don't understand why it has to be so cryptic. Why not just tell the player what is really going on and let the computer do the calculations? Why not just have the hex number tell the user what the final result is?

Do people really play like that? That doesn't seem fun at all, more like doing a budget!

It seems odd that I would have to break the gameplay to get out the calculator and figure out if my units will be in supply.

There has to be a better way than that!?!


It really isn't as hard as it looks at first. Supply isn't important enough for players to calculate every turn for each unit. You can get a general overview of your units state by looking at the color box in the upper-right hand corner. It goes from dark green (best state) to bright red (worst).



JAMiAM -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/14/2006 12:02:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AstroCat
Ok, thanks for the help. So that is the number that is added to the Supply % for the unit.
By the way none of that is listed as such in the manual.

It is. See the paragraphs on page 27, headed by Unit Supply.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AstroCat
I still don't understand why it has to be so cryptic. Why not just tell the player what is really going on and let the computer do the calculations? Why not just have the hex number tell the user what the final result is?

It's not cryptic. The number in the hex is a base rate for the hex. The "final result" will depend on the formational supply distribution efficiencies of the different unit's parent formation, and thus will vary. Which of nine possible numbers do you want the "final result" to be?

The computer does the calculations. However, if you want to have a better understanding of the net effect, then a quick multiplication in your head can give you a ball park, "seat of your pants" number to expect. If it varies by a couple of points, the world will not come crashing down on you. I guarantee it...[;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: AstroCat
Do people really play like that? That doesn't seem fun at all, more like doing a budget!

It seems odd that I would have to break the gameplay to get out the calculator and figure out if my units will be in supply.

There has to be a better way than that!?!

If you have the supply circles, then unless your opponent cuts off your line of communication during his turn, your units will be in supply. No need to break out the calculator. The graphics will tell you whether you have supply or not.

Again, don't sweat the small stuff. A good seat of your pants estimate for "usual" distribution efficiencies is to multiply the number in hex, by 1/4, 1/3, or 1/2, for effective resupply rate. That's because often you end up with formation efficiencies of 40-80, which, when multiplied by (2/3) will net approximately between .25-.50.



fbastos -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/14/2006 4:47:44 AM)

Hmm.. about supply... I forgot when the little supply circles mean when they are all-white, half-blue and half-red... don't remember if that means supply for player only (half-blue), supply for enemy only (half-red) or supply for both (full white).. is that right?

Thanks!
F.



MrMox -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/15/2006 11:14:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos
Hmm.. about supply... I forgot when the little supply circles mean when they are all-white, half-blue and half-red... don't remember if that means supply for player only (half-blue), supply for enemy only (half-red) or supply for both (full white).. is that right?

This, I'd like to know too - haven't been able to find the info in the manual.



liuzg150181 -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/15/2006 11:32:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrMox

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos
Hmm.. about supply... I forgot when the little supply circles mean when they are all-white, half-blue and half-red... don't remember if that means supply for player only (half-blue), supply for enemy only (half-red) or supply for both (full white).. is that right?

This, I'd like to know too - haven't been able to find the info in the manual.


I am the third who wants to know what those types of circle means.[&:]



Nemo69 -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/15/2006 2:41:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbastos

Hmm.. about supply... I forgot when the little supply circles mean when they are all-white, half-blue and half-red... don't remember if that means supply for player only (half-blue), supply for enemy only (half-red) or supply for both (full white).. is that right?

Thanks!
F.
Yes, except that colours are not fixed: you can have the blue dots and the enemy the red ones or the other way round. It's a value fixed in the scenario editor. You can tell which ones are yours by looking at the mini map. Colours match between this and the supply dsiplay.

Hope it helps

Marc

[image]local://upfiles/11039/2D1D24F78E1E4C38A72A6E563931240D.jpg[/image]



henri511 -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/15/2006 2:50:31 PM)

IIRC each team (red and blue) have supply indicators with the corresponding colors. So check from which direction you are coming, look at the supply counter(s) on your side (usually near the edge of the map), and that will tell you which color corresponds to your side.

BTW, the amount of supply for each unit is indicated in the icon information on the top right when you run your cursor over a unit.

Also when you turn on the supply indicator in each hex, note that the supply available usually decreases as you move away from a supply source, which means that you will get less supply as you get further. In some scenarios (e.g. Rommel in Africa) these numbers can even get smaller than 10, which indicates that the Germans will have a major problem keeping their units supplied.

What you need to know is that if the supply number in the hex is small, it will take a longer time for a unit on that hex to resupply than if the number is high. With high numbers, units will resupply in one move, whereas with small numbers, it can take multiple moves to fully resupply. for example if the number is 20, you will get no more than 20% supplies added to a unit if it stops for one move, less if it moves - not counting other factors that resduce supply.[>:]

There is no point in checking the supply level of each unit on each move - just keep your eye on the supply levels in general. It is much more important to keep your eye on the color of the little square on the top of each unit - if it is red, try to keep out of combat. [X(]

Henri



Heartland -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/15/2006 2:56:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AstroCat
Do people really play like that?


I don't. I go by the almighty "higher is better, really low is bad m'kay" alorithm. [:D]

A quick scan of the map reveals what is maximum at the supply points. Then there are various degrees of supply around the map that are always lower/worse than this, how bad it is depends on what fraction of the supply-point value this is. In many (most?) cases this is all that is needed, really...



Nemo69 -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/15/2006 3:16:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredrik Rask

quote:

ORIGINAL: AstroCat
Do people really play like that?


I don't. I go by the almighty "higher is better, really low is bad m'kay" alorithm. [:D]

A quick scan of the map reveals what is maximum at the supply points. Then there are various degrees of supply around the map that are always lower/worse than this, how bad it is depends on what fraction of the supply-point value this is. In many (most?) cases this is all that is needed, really...


And in some cases even less. I for one only leave on the map the supply sources, only caring about knowing whether the units are supplied or not. The actual level of supply I leave it to the abstracted logisitics officers and clercks to take care of [8D]

Works in most cases for me, but your mileage may vary.



fbastos -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/19/2006 7:52:01 AM)

quote:

Yes, except that colours are not fixed: you can have the blue dots and the enemy the red ones or the other way round. It's a value fixed in the scenario editor. You can tell which ones are yours by looking at the mini map. Colours match between this and the supply dsiplay.


Thank you, Nemo, appreciate it.

F.



Catch21 -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/19/2006 3:52:51 PM)

http://www.wargamer.com/toaw/scenplay/strategy.htm got me started. Brilliant. And excellent on supply too, for those with math.

I wish Matrix had somewhere we could post such material for read/download. We're in danger of losing it. Any time I find it I usually these days copy to my HD since I've seen so much TOAW stuff disappear.



ralphtricky -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/19/2006 6:33:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

http://www.wargamer.com/toaw/scenplay/strategy.htm got me started. Brilliant. And excellent on supply too, for those with math.

I wish Matrix had somewhere we could post such material for read/download. We're in danger of losing it. Any time I find it I usually these days copy to my HD since I've seen so much TOAW stuff disappear.

If you care to post it to the 'War Room' on the Matrix site, I'll put together a Sticky (as soon as I can get moderator privleges for the sub-forums, anyway<g>) They've got my evil twin as moderator.



Catch21 -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/19/2006 6:47:23 PM)

I've tried but currently it seems only GIF/JPG/TXT foramts are supported for upload.



JAMiAM -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/19/2006 7:14:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

I've tried but currently it seems only GIF/JPG/TXT foramts are supported for upload.

You should be able to upload zip files.



larryfulkerson -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/19/2006 7:36:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
You should be able to upload zip files.


I've tried to upload *.zip files and it wouldn't lemme. So I renamed the file *.zip.txt and that it WOULD upload.



hank -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/19/2006 7:50:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chuck2


It really isn't as hard as it looks at first. Supply isn't important enough for players to calculate every turn for each unit. You can get a general overview of your units state by looking at the color box in the upper-right hand corner. It goes from dark green (best state) to bright red (worst).


So, after reading through all this stuff on supply calcs; can I assume the best "graphical" method to quickly see how each unit is doing with supplies is to check out the small colored square in the upper right of each map unit icon ??

I know there's more to planning your battles relative to supply (like turning on and off the map hex's supply numbers, viewing the supply sources, etc.) ... but I'm looking for a quick reliable check without doing the math in my head.

Something like a hex supply highlight button could be used to show what hexes are in good supply, average, and poor or no supply at all. That could be a quick and easy check to see if you're outrunning your supplies or if everything is copesetic with getting your guys ammo, food, nylons, beer, cigarettes, etc. that every good fighting force needs.

thanks
hank




Catch21 -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/19/2006 7:53:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
You should be able to upload zip files.


I've tried to upload *.zip files and it wouldn't lemme. So I renamed the file *.zip.txt and that it WOULD upload.

Bit of a cluge job. And won't help the less (computer)-literate. Not that there's many of those among us. Other sites I can just post a ZIP no problem. Shouldn't be one here.



Catch21 -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/19/2006 8:12:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hank
So, after reading through all this stuff on supply calcs; can I assume the best "graphical" method to quickly see how each unit is doing with supplies is to check out the small colored square in the upper right of each map unit icon ??

I know there's more to planning your battles relative to supply (like turning on and off the map hex's supply numbers, viewing the supply sources, etc.) ... but I'm looking for a quick reliable check without doing the math in my head.

Something like a hex supply highlight button could be used to show what hexes are in good supply, average, and poor or no supply at all. That could be a quick and easy check to see if you're outrunning your supplies or if everything is copesetic with getting your guys ammo, food, nylons, beer, cigarettes, etc. that every good fighting force needs.

The colored square indicates how well a unit is doing, but not just on supply. Readiness, casualties too. A general health indicator if you will.

I can't stress this enough but if you want to get to understand this game there is no free lunch. Read ALL the articles you can (I linked one in this thread on supply), maybe with lunch.

On supply, for myself I leave trace on ALWAYS so I can see what every hex might possibly get. I don't do the math but this way I can try to leave units on best supplied hexes at the end of every turn. There are other factors as well but you'll just have to figure these out for yourselves- that's why I think this game is so good.



hank -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/19/2006 8:29:16 PM)

Sounds good.  That colored square shows a general well being status comprised of several factors. 

As you pile up casualties for a unit, does that indicator gradually turn yellow and red even though the unit may be the best supplied ready unit on the field of battle?  I notice the attack and defend numbers go down as you do battle to indicated reduced effectiveness.  (of course I will find this out as I play more)

AND Yes, I'm reading all I can.  I also have a buddy who's going to play me a mirror fun game for learning. 

I've been toggling the supply values on and off but I would rather toggle them than leave them on ... all those numbers hurt my eyes.  (I do the same with weather but the clouds get in my way)

I'll go back to that link ... I've been building a txt doc for all this good stuff off the threads here at matrix ... and anywhere else I can find this good information.

[&o]



golden delicious -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/19/2006 8:38:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hank

As you pile up casualties for a unit, does that indicator gradually turn yellow and red even though the unit may be the best supplied ready unit on the field of battle?


Not quite. A unit which has 1% of its authorised equipment but 100% supply and readiness will have yellow health. A unit which has 100% of its authorised equipment but 33% readiness and 1% supply will have orange health.



Catch21 -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/19/2006 8:57:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hank
AND Yes, I'm reading all I can. I also have a buddy who's going to play me a mirror fun game for learning.

I've been toggling the supply values on and off but I would rather toggle them than leave them on ... all those numbers hurt my eyes. (I do the same with weather but the clouds get in my way)

Sorry if I offended you on the learning front- just trying to help.

Supply is more important in some scenarios than others, usually depending on length. 2 Weeks in Normandy versus 2 Years in Russia. For myself I always leave it on. The better your boys get fed and watered, the better they fight it seems to me.

Weather. I turn this on when I need it. Usually only at turn start. Bridge attacks & air antics etc... Otherwise I leave it off.

Good luck with the mirror game! On the info you're collating, if I can be of any help please just send me a PM.



hank -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/20/2006 3:38:14 PM)

No problemo General.  I didn't take it that way and I apologize in kind if I was harsh.  My skin's pretty thick ... mostly old wrinkled and tough as leather ... but then, that happens when your body deteriorates with age ... [8|]

I need all the help I can get right now.  I got my opponent's first move in the Barbarossa sce (Topp's version).  He is axis and he's taken Riga on the first move ... it took me 4 moves to take Riga against the PO ... how embarassing.  But now its my turn so we'll see how good i am at planning a delaying defense ... against the Juggernaut of Axis Panzers ... the slaughter is ON!!

... this is fun ... that's for dang sure

Later ... work calls
hank



Der Oberst -> RE: Supply help... total newb! (6/20/2006 4:35:09 PM)



hank..... hank.... hank.... It is so sad and disappointing to see you hanging around these forums all day looking for those tidbits of info that will somehow alllow you to try and hold back the mighty Wehrmacht in Barbarossa '41! [:)]

Tsk, tsk, tsk ......[:)]

Give in ... it won't work..... Riga on turn 1..... Moscow on turn 10! [:D]

I look forward to your first turn! [:D]




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