RE: Big showdown comming.

RE: Big showdown comming. (Full Version)

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tsimmonds -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/14/2006 7:10:09 PM)
quote: but the slaughter was because of MASSIVE numbers of CAP which compensated for the inability for all CAP fighters to be at the point of contact Excellent point; even at this point in the development of the art of fighter direction, what portion of the IJN losses were inflicted by what fraction of the USN CAP, and what portion of the USN CAP failed to make any contact with IJN aircraft at all?

Przemcio231 -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/14/2006 7:16:20 PM)
quote: It looks like he lost a goodly number of fighters (and pilots too?). That could hurt. Well he definetly lost them unless they can swim back 240 miles... or more[:D]

MarcA -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/14/2006 8:40:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust? Well, i suppose if you were willing to have rules that said one bomb would wipe out an airbase as a single hit could do in a carrier... (i.e. Akagi supposedly destroyed by a single direct hit (according to Shattered Sword))... Things were VERY concentrated on a carrier, leaving them extraordinarily vulnerable to being knocked out by damage a good sized air base will barely notice. Several months ago treespider started an excellent thread where he listed many CV, CVL and CVE's destroyed with one hit. For my part I give you CVL Princeton. (Over 200 men died on CL Birmingham when the Pirnccetons bomb store exploded ). Princeton, in TG 38.3, cruised off Luzon and sent her planes against airfields there to prevent Japanese land based aircraft attacks on Allied ships massed in Leyte Gulf. On the 24th however, enemy planes from Clark and Nichols fields found TG 38.3 and reciprocated. Shortly before 1000, a lone enemy dive bomber came out of the clouds above Princeton. At 1500 feet the pilot released his bomb. It hit between the elevators, crashed through the flight deck and hangar, then exploded. Initial fires soon expanded as further explosions sent black smoke rolling off the flight deck and red flames along the sides from the island to the stern. Covering vessels provided rescue and fire-fighting assistance and shielded the stricken carrier from further attack. At 1524, another, much heavier explosion, possibly the bomb magazine, blew off the carrier's stern and with it the after flight deck. The cruiser Birmingham (CL-62), alongside to fight fires, suffered heavy damage and casualties. Efforts to save Princeton continued, but at 1604 the fires won. Boats were requested to take off remaining personnel and shortly after 1706, Irwin (DD-794) began to fire torpedoes at the burning hulk. Quote from Wikpedia

MarcA -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/14/2006 8:45:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aletoledo can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust? On my visit of CV Intrepid one of the old boys who use to serve abaord was manning the captains bridge. I asked him over what area the entire CV task force usually covered. According to this man the entire TF, including 4 CV's were concnetrated within one miles radius [X(].

RAM -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/14/2006 9:12:21 PM)
one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk... If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ?

rtrapasso -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/14/2006 9:21:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RAM one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk... If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ? Always the possibility that the enemy may decide to board a ship, possibly finding something useful (like overlooked orders or coding stuff)...

Mike Solli -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/14/2006 9:35:21 PM)
Not to mention it doesn't hurt as much when you scuttle your ships. Just like in WitP.....[:'(]

BrucePowers -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/14/2006 9:48:59 PM)
Never leave anything your enemy might find useful. Just think of all the stuff the British and Americans got off of U-Boats. I don't remember the one the Brits got, but we got the U-505. From what I understand, it was a gold mine (and can now be seen in Chicago).

Ron Saueracker -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/14/2006 9:55:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RAM one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk... If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ? Ever been pissed and agree to just one more drink? Even worse, a shooter!

sprior -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/14/2006 10:33:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker quote: ORIGINAL: RAM one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk... If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ? Ever been pissed and agree to just one more drink? Even worse, a shooter! Far too many times...

aletoledo -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/14/2006 11:52:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mantill quote: ORIGINAL: aletoledo can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust? On my visit of CV Intrepid one of the old boys who use to serve abaord was manning the captains bridge. I asked him over what area the entire CV task force usually covered. According to this man the entire TF, including 4 CV's were concnetrated within one miles radius [X(]. interesting! so I suppose (as everyone has always said) the fault doesn't lie in the number of carriers, but the hugh number of planes. I suppose as Ron has also pointed out, that if the CAP didn't all get a shot at shooting at every wave and every plane, we might get more realistic results from the large formations. do people play with a common rule regarding this? I've read (in this thread) two alternate ideas. 1) set a maximum allowed CAP at 40% or 2) not allow escort carriers to operate with fleet carriers.

anarchyintheuk -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/14/2006 11:59:07 PM)
To an extent WitP-like cap slaughter didn't occur in '42 because it couldn't. The six-pack was never formed and during the few times that KB was formed and was laying waste to the IO/Australia they weren't subject to much in the way of air attacks. It's difficult to project how effective the cap for either would have been. Unfortunately, due the lack of cv-cv affairs in '43 it's even harder to gauge the rate at which cap increased its effectiveness. The above in no way endorses the current a2a/cap fu. [;)]

rtrapasso -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/15/2006 12:04:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk To an extent WitP-like cap slaughter didn't occur in '42 because it couldn't. The six-pack was never formed and during the few times that KB was formed and was laying waste to the IO/Australia they weren't subject to much in the way of air attacks. It's difficult to project how effective the cap for either would have been. Even in the IO Raid - aircraft penetrated the KB CAP and bombed the KB - and weren't detected before the bombs started landing around the carriers! Unfortunately for the Allies, they were Blenheims, not dive bombers, or the war might have had a different course.

RAM -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/15/2006 12:07:32 AM)
if that's the main reason (to avoid the enemy to put hands on valuable things aboard the ship) then why did the Japanese finish off the USS Hornet instead of boarding it?

1275psi -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/15/2006 12:08:11 AM)
Just had a carrier battle against BZpanzer We play 40% max cap house rule CVL Zuiho, Shoho and CVE Taiyo on a convoy raid ran into the yorktown and lexington[8\|] japan actually had 10% CAP -wanted max chance of the Kates getting through if the "convoy" I had spotted did have a surprise -which it did[8\|] 41 zeros escorted 12 kates and 4 Jakes against 17 Wildcat CAP - the jakes got a hit[8\|], 6 kate dropped torps -but missed The 40% rule seemed pretty realistic. His strike had predictable results - all 3 carriers are sunk very quickly[:@]. 40% CAP seems a fair house rule to at least allow strikes through.

rtrapasso -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/15/2006 12:14:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RAM if that's the main reason (to avoid the enemy to put hands on valuable things aboard the ship) then why did the Japanese finish off the USS Hornet instead of boarding it? Never heard an explanation, but the USN had just been trying to sink her (Hornet), and i think she was pretty much an inferno when the IJN DDs found her.

esteban -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/15/2006 3:38:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: ORIGINAL: RAM if that's the main reason (to avoid the enemy to put hands on valuable things aboard the ship) then why did the Japanese finish off the USS Hornet instead of boarding it? Never heard an explanation, but the USN had just been trying to sink her (Hornet), and i think she was pretty much an inferno when the IJN DDs found her. As I recall, the Hornet's screen fired something like 150 5" shells into her, plus several torpedos, but had to withdraw to avoid being destroyed by the oncoming Japanese. Also, the Franklin was nearly sunk by one bomb in 1945. I think that the catastrophic fires that she survived were caused by a 250 KG bomb dropped from a Judy.

wild_Willie2 -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/15/2006 10:51:32 AM)
Ok things are winding down, today I finally got a coordinated strike in on his transports (his carriers are near tarawa). Day Air attack on TF, near Maloelap at 82,81 Japanese aircraft A6M3a Zero x 10 B5N Kate x 6 Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 11 Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 19 F4U-1 Corsair x 11 Japanese aircraft losses A6M3a Zero: 1 damaged B5N Kate: 6 damaged Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 3 damaged Allied aircraft losses F4F-3 Wildcat: 10 destroyed F4U-1 Corsair: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged Allied Ships AK John C. Calhoun AK Joseph Holt, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage Aircraft Attacking: 2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet 4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on TF, near Maloelap at 82,81 Japanese aircraft A6M3a Zero x 24 B5N Kate x 71 Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 42 Allied aircraft F4F-3 Wildcat x 9 F4U-1 Corsair x 9 Japanese aircraft losses B5N Kate: 1 destroyed, 32 damaged Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 4 damaged Allied aircraft losses F4F-3 Wildcat: 7 destroyed F4U-1 Corsair: 11 destroyed Allied Ships AK Mana AK Andrew D. White, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Manulani, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage DD Case, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage AK San Vincente, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage AK Waipo, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage AK Mormaclark, Torpedo hits 1, on fire DD Cummings, Torpedo hits 1, on fire AK Donald McKay DD Tucker AK Arthur Riggs, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage MSW Penguin, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage AK Archbishop Lamy AK Maine 5 ships sank that turn.....

BrucePowers -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/15/2006 4:02:54 PM)
So, who do you consider the winner, tactically and strategically?

Przemcio231 -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/15/2006 4:19:58 PM)
well we just agreed with willie that he will allow me to transport the units that teleported during the landing back... with no opposition[:)] any way i achived my objective...

BrucePowers -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/15/2006 4:22:27 PM)
Fair is fair[:D]

Przemcio231 -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/15/2006 5:05:19 PM)
Yach Playing with Willie is a real pleasure...

wild_Willie2 -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/15/2006 5:26:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Przemcio231 Yach Playing with Willie is a real pleasure... Sure, I am such a "nice" boy [8\|][8\|][8\|]. All the girls see me like the big brother they never had [:-][:-] (until I drop the pretence and the hrn beast in me shows it's ugly, bald and one eyed head......[:D][:D][:D][:D][:'(][:'(]

RUPD3658 -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/15/2006 5:37:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2 quote: ORIGINAL: Przemcio231 Yach Playing with Willie is a real pleasure... Sure, I am such a "nice" boy [8\|][8\|][8\|]. All the girls see me like the big brother they never had [:-][:-] (until I drop the pretence and the hrn beast in me shows it's ugly, bald and one eyed head......[:D][:D][:D][:D][:'(][:'(] Sincerity is everything. Once you can fake that you have it made. [:D][&o]

scott64 -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/17/2006 5:42:34 AM)
Who won? [:'(][:)][8D] [sm=00000613.gif] [sm=00000028.gif][sm=Crazy-1271.gif]

Nomad -> RE: Big showdown comming. (6/17/2006 6:18:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker quote: ORIGINAL: RAM one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk... If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ? Ever been pissed and agree to just one more drink? Even worse, a shooter! I don't really remember. [8\|][:D]

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