Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases

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Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/16/2006 5:56:40 AM)
I am seeing a bit of disatisfaction over Matrix Games re releasing games to the wargaming public, or more specifically, it's disatisfaction over the expected price of the item it seems. I am going to state, I am not one of the disatisfied. TOAW3, what's it worth to a wargamer? Well, if you have a previous version (I have TOAW CoW), you might think "gee do I really want TOAW3 enough to pay 40 bucks for it?" The problem with this line of thinking, is, if you already own a copy of an earlier version, yes, it will not be so entirely thrilling to have to pay for it all over again. But, did Matrix Games initiate the process just to give those that had TOAW CoW an update? I don't think so. I think Matrix Games wanted to restore a great wargame, to the buying public. And, if you have never bought TOAW (any version) before, is 40 bucks a fair price for it? Well duh, yeah. Would it have been nice if TOAW3 was the TOAW that was sold back in 1998? Well, duh, yeah. But it wasn't. Now, if the game had been obtained as TOAW CoW ie not modified a damned bit before being made available, would this have been ok? Well, maybe, if Matrix Games had made it clear, we are only selling this product, we aren't planning to modify it though. But, as it goes, Matrix Games routinely does it's darndest to make anything they sell better. How much was TOAW CoW likely worth as a game unmodified? Likely not 40 bucks. But that is what it was going to cost you from Take2 eh. So as I see it, you could have had TOAW CoW for 40 bucks, or TOAW3 for 40 bucks. Honestly, it is not defendible saying Matrix Games is asking too much for TOAW3. Now I am not all the knowledgable with Harpoon. I only know, Matrix Games has released it recently. I am confident they have improved the game. I am also confident, claiming it is unfair to sell it "full price" is no more fair, than claiming selling TOAW3 is unfair. I expect, when Matrix Games is finished tweaking the Campaign series, it will be a much improved game option. And I won't be annoyed if they price it full price too. I own the Campaign series. It runs in XP, but it isn't like it runs 100% no headaches. It would be nice if the install was completely devoid of me giving a single thought to the install and running of this series. It likely would be worth a redundant purchase. I ask myself, aside from new titles from SSG or Panther Games, what other wargames are worth really giving a damn about really. I'd rather see some proven classics refitted and made fully playable, then take risks on yet another flashy all promises no proven track record title. I have the V4Victory games here. The cds are in great shape, they are merely worthless in XP. And I have tried to fiddle with DosBox, but it says something about the ease of use of something like DosBox, if I can say formatting and reloading my OS is easy in comparison. I'd love to amuse myself with the V4Victory titles maybe once more through a revamped release. Guys, if you already own the older classics, and you resent having to pay the same price as a customer that has never bought it before, please, just accept that that's just too bad eh. Either buy it, or resort to something like Dosbox, or running a vintage paperweight grade computer with a vintage OS. You're not required to replace those old games, it's likely just a good idea :)

Sarge -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/16/2006 8:02:11 AM)
IMHO the ongoing support level/community in itself is worth the price of admission , if indeed the title was one I have truly enjoyed .

jeffthewookiee -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/19/2006 5:22:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge IMHO the ongoing support level/community in itself is worth the price of admission , if indeed the title was one I have truly enjoyed . I second that thought. Just the fact that the game is now being sold and supported will keep the community growing and thriving. Games that are no longer sold or supported can only keep a fan community around so long...and playing online is what keeps many games interesting year after year.

Terminus -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/19/2006 5:39:44 PM)
There are people who'll whine no matter what the price is. If Matrix had sold TOAW3 for $0, the whine would have been, "What's wrong with it? There must something wrong with it, since it's free!"

Kung Karl -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/19/2006 6:10:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1 I have the V4Victory games here. The cds are in great shape, they are merely worthless in XP. And I have tried to fiddle with DosBox, but it says something about the ease of use of something like DosBox, if I can say formatting and reloading my OS is easy in comparison. Try using a frontend for dosbox. Makes it very easy to use. Without it I wouldn't use dosbox, but with this it is a breeze to configure and play old games. Frontend for dosbox: http://members.home.nl/mabus/

Terminus -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/19/2006 6:11:41 PM)
You'll be able to find links to various front ends (I use DFend) on the DOSBox homepage. Without one, it's basically useless.

Warfare1 -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/19/2006 6:45:05 PM)
I have to agree. $40.00 for a game that will last a lifetime is nothing. Heck, I spend $40.00 just to fill up my car with gas each week... Matrix deserves our thanks for the fact that they are willing to bring back these classic games, update them, and further support them down the road....[&o]

Hertston -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/19/2006 7:48:41 PM)
Matrix will price the games at the level at which they think they will make the most money, balancing volume of sales against profit per sale. That is quite reasonable, as that is what all businesses (well, successful ones anyway) do. If they have got it wrong, they will no doubt chalk up a mark to experience, drop the price and/or not pursue such projects in future. Nobody is unaware that these are re-releases of old (sometimes very old!) games, with various degrees of updating. So far, to me, the prices seem perfectly reasonable for new purchasers... good wargames have a long shelf-life. Existing owners can choose whether to buy or not, depending on whether they think the new material offers value for money or not. To take myself for example, such consideration meant "yes" for TAOW but will mean "no" for the Battleground games and probably "no" for the Campaign series.

jeffthewookiee -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/19/2006 8:12:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hertston Matrix will price the games at the level at which they think they will make the most money, balancing volume of sales against profit per sale. That is quite reasonable, as that is what all businesses (well, successful ones anyway) do. If they have got it wrong, they will no doubt chalk up a mark to experience, drop the price and/or not pursue such projects in future. Nobody is unaware that these are re-releases of old (sometimes very old!) games, with various degrees of updating. So far, to me, the prices seem perfectly reasonable for new purchasers... good wargames have a long shelf-life. Existing owners can choose whether to buy or not, depending on whether they think the new material offers value for money or not. To take myself for example, such consideration meant "yes" for TAOW but will mean "no" for the Battleground games and probably "no" for the Campaign series. I agree, and I also think it's perfectly reasonable to support Matrix as a company by buying their products and getting others involved as well. After all, Matrix is keeping alive a hobby we love, not to mention they allow their customers to have a say in what they'd like to see. Try going to EA sports and asking them to bring an old classic back, I doubt their leadership will be so available to respond to your comments.

Hertston -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/19/2006 10:55:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jeffthewookiee Try going to EA sports and asking them to bring an old classic back, I doubt their leadership will be so available to respond to your comments. Asking isn't necessary - they do it every year and charge full price! [:D]

Jevhaddah -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/20/2006 1:36:07 AM)
Yoo pays yer money, yoo makes yer choice. [8D] I have most of Matrix Games erm games in my collection and am universally dire at all of them [:D] But I have no complaints with the price and to be honest here the weak dollar is helping me.. ahem support Matrix Games more than I could normally [8\|] Not bad for Tightfisted Scot [sm=00000280.gif] Cheers Jev

jchastain -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/20/2006 1:57:33 AM)
With re-release games (whether by the original publisher or via a "restorer", I do wish there were a separate price for the "upgrade". Even $10 off would be appreciated as recognition that I bought the title once already. But it is especially bad to buy a bug ridden title like HOI and then have all the design issues fixed as HOI2 and be expected to pay full price yet again. I would also be nice if Matrix supported frequent customers by giving a discount based on total purchases. Imagine if the store gave a discount of $1 for every previous Matrix product purchased (up to a maximum of $10 or $15). [:'(]

Hertston -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/20/2006 9:19:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jchastain With re-release games (whether by the original publisher or via a "restorer"), I do wish there were a separate price for the "upgrade". Even $10 off would be appreciated as recognition that I bought the title once already. The trouble with that is its practicality, or lack of it. Unless you have an electronic record of existing purchasers (as is the case of some of those who have recently bought Harpoon 3), how do you identify such people? Going through the "send us your old disk" routine would take time and money - and probably remove any profit element from the reduced price. An upgrade to the new game (as opposed to the new game itself) would obviously be even more expensive for them. quote: I would also be nice if Matrix supported frequent customers by giving a discount based on total purchases. That's an excellent idea, though! [:D]

Zap -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/20/2006 7:25:57 PM)
Warfare 1, Eye-catching Avatar!

bobwalt -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/21/2006 4:04:18 AM)
One really can't complain about Matrix's prices. There never has been any money in Wargames and probably never will be. Given the history of wargames I will glad if they stay in business. Remember SPI (the first one), Avalon Hill, GDW, and many many more. Bob

Warfare1 -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/21/2006 5:29:35 PM)
quote: Zap: Warfare 1, Eye-catching Avatar! Heheh This is me after a long night of wargaming.... Started young... [:D]

ravinhood -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/24/2006 1:49:43 AM)
I got TOAW Elite from Canada for $4.99....where do you get this $40 bucks stuff? ;)

Sarge -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/24/2006 4:31:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ravinhood I got TOAW Elite from Canada for $4.99....where do you get this $40 bucks stuff? ;) [sm=00000939.gif]

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/24/2006 6:55:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ravinhood I got TOAW Elite from Canada for $4.99....where do you get this $40 bucks stuff? ;) Actually, I know where you can get TOAW Elite for free. But that's TOAW Elite, and that hasn't been on sale now for hmmm like 7-8 years (which is like forever in the computer gaming business). I assume you meant TOAW Elite volume 1? Should also be mentioned, getting TOAW Elite Volume 1 running in XP is either impossible, or requires a great lot of skill. Then there was Wargame of the Year edition, but that too is likely not worth much cash. Then there was Century of Warfare. But buying that today, is kinda dumb considering TOAW3 defacto makes it worthless as a new product. So, in the end, I would gladly pay 40 bucks for TOAW3 (if I had 40 bucks I would buy it tonight). But I wouldn't give you 5 bucks let alone 4.99 Canadian for any of the earlier versions.

L`zard -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/25/2006 4:01:55 AM)
Really, it's quite simple........... Vote with your money! No real reason to bitch on-line, eh? If your of the camp that thinks that a 'rerelease' of a game isn't worth your bucks, don't buy it, eh? Myself, everything about ToaW3 is worth MY time/money.....so basically, I'll just ignore the nay-sayers and drive on. 'Nuff said!

dinsdale -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/26/2006 7:56:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: L`zard Really, it's quite simple........... Vote with your money! No real reason to bitch on-line, eh? If your of the camp that thinks that a 'rerelease' of a game isn't worth your bucks, don't buy it, eh? Myself, everything about ToaW3 is worth MY time/money.....so basically, I'll just ignore the nay-sayers and drive on. 'Nuff said! I bought TOAW 1 then TOAW 2, and picked up COW in a bargain bin sometime. I don't see enough value in the new release to be worth the price for me, but for anyone without the game it's a steal. Maybe those of you with the prior versions don't mind spending money on the new feature set, some obviously do, and rather than insulating Matrix from any negative post, maybe you should respect their customers who are prepared to give them feedback, provided it's polite. But as this thread seems to contain a bunch of posts praising the game and and it's price point, combined with a collective disdain for some mythical "nay sayers" I suppose that respecting other peoples opinions is only convenient if it's agreable.

ravinhood -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/26/2006 11:00:46 AM)
Well as far as remakes go I can see the value of them to Matrixgames for new people entering the wargaming world. Just because us old farts whine and cry about same ole same ole, to a 12-13 year old all this is brand new to them. Most of these were good games back then and we have a thread on this very same site of games we'd like to see Matrixgames redo. These most immediate releases�are just not on my list though. Doesn't mean they won't sell well though. Face it, us old farts�are dying out, we have one foot in the grave lol. They give squat about what we want anymore. It's all about the $$ has to be or they couldn't stay in business. Look what Battlefront is doing, they musta made a fortune on the WWII Combat Mission series and now they are doing some hypothetical middle east conflict against Syria I could give squat about and surely won't buy it upon release. But, I guess a buncha 12-13 year olds who's dad is in Iraq will want to jump on it in a heartbeat. Have to face facts, developers and publishers make and sell what they want to, not always what we (old farts) want them to. ;) Hell I'm still waiting for a 3D first person "Heart of Africa" remake (probably never see it) lol. @Les the Sarge About TOAW Elite, I run a dual boot system WinXP and Win98, very simple really to setup, don't understand why everyone that games doesn't have a setup like this. TOAW Elite works great on Win98 merely a matter of a reboot when I want to play it. ;) I have DOSBOX for older games. Even got "ROADWAR 2000" up and working. That is still a fun game to play even though the graphics are dated.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/26/2006 2:56:57 PM)
"@Les the Sarge About TOAW Elite, I run a dual boot system WinXP and Win98, very simple really to setup, don't understand why everyone that games doesn't have a setup like this. TOAW Elite works great on Win98 merely a matter of a reboot when I want to play it. ;) I have DOSBOX for older games. Even got "ROADWAR 2000" up and working. That is still a fun game to play even though the graphics are dated." unquote Alas, the only glitch there is the loading the Win98 part. I can't recall how many times I have tried to re install that &^%$#^@ OS in the last year, and something in the process got snarled. Drivers, or some friggin fiddly issue or another. It's of course nice that with XP, a person can easily (in theory) have a multi boot set up, but that statement fails where the word "easily" is concerned. FAT vs NTFS for instance, if you have not got a FAT partition, you can't get far. And the C drive needs to be FAT "first". Then there is needing to be able to use a 3.5 drive, and heck, they have almost phased those out of computers entirely.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/26/2006 3:06:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dinsdale quote: ORIGINAL: L`zard Really, it's quite simple........... Vote with your money! No real reason to bitch on-line, eh? If your of the camp that thinks that a 'rerelease' of a game isn't worth your bucks, don't buy it, eh? Myself, everything about ToaW3 is worth MY time/money.....so basically, I'll just ignore the nay-sayers and drive on. 'Nuff said! I bought TOAW 1 then TOAW 2, and picked up COW in a bargain bin sometime. I don't see enough value in the new release to be worth the price for me, but for anyone without the game it's a steal. Maybe those of you with the prior versions don't mind spending money on the new feature set, some obviously do, and rather than insulating Matrix from any negative post, maybe you should respect their customers who are prepared to give them feedback, provided it's polite. But as this thread seems to contain a bunch of posts praising the game and and it's price point, combined with a collective disdain for some mythical "nay sayers" I suppose that respecting other peoples opinions is only convenient if it's agreable. Most miss an important point. It's not about whether the day one release is still "ok" as software, it's about whether that "might be ok software" is even about to be available to a newcomer. I have seen some remarks to the effect, that this is wrong, this is problematic, this hasn't been fixed etc in connection with TOAW3, and thus one is left to ponder "should I buy it?" When really, there is no real need to ponder. Because, chances are your chances of buying any pre TOAW3 version falls under the heading of "not realistically likely". Sure, you "might" find an old version on eBay, or get a last stray TOAW CoW disc from some operation like NWS, but, there's no future for the game expecting any newly interested players relying on the advice "you might find a copy on eBay". It's just not worth the time endlessly trying to convince a person that has the older versions, that the newest version "rocks". Chances are, they are already aware of the new versions warts, and they don't need are help much in making that decision. Chamces are also, that veterans of the game already understand, it's unlikely you will enjoy a lot of success playing older versions online against others, when increasingly those online others will have the new version, and their older version will not be compatible. If you think that sucks, I guess constantly upgrading Windows OSs must reeeeeeeeally bug you :)

ravinhood -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/26/2006 4:05:39 PM)
Thing is the really "innovative" days of computer games are over. Back in the 80's to mid 90's we got some awesome stuff and much of it was something new everytime. About the time of Win95 is when it started and of course 3D video cards. Then the innovation stopped and just repeats of the same began and for 10 years it's been this way with little to nothing really new and innovating that made you ewwww an ahhhhh and rush to the store to buy it as soon as it was ready. Well not for me anyway. For 12-13 and probably several 20ish year olds this stuff is like that to them. I was 24 thereabouts when computer gaming on the pc hit and I couldn't wait for the next game I lived by SSI games most entirely until "Sid Meiers Railroad Tycoon and Civilization". Gawd then I wanted every game to be like them. But, we didn't get many lookalike or copycats of those two great ones. Master of Magic was the closest I think. At least I can die knowing I lived in the best of times in computer gaming, the pioneer days when great games were made and innovation was at its highest. :) Hrmmm now where is my "Geopolitique disks and Germany 85"?? ;) I lived in a time of Laminated maps and real honest to goodness hard bound MANUALS!! ;) I think some developers/publishers have been watching too much Star Trek and think hard bound manualess games are something that the vast majority enjoy nowadays. Sorry I'm not one of them. I also think they've lost their minds if they think online purchasing is outweighing brick n mortar purchases by consumers. Little too far advanced I think, Star Trek days ain't here yet. Let me just type you something I read in an editoral by Johnny Wilson: "Quote" I am beginning to see a pattern emerge. I first began to notice this while visiting a game company that had previously led the industry with innovative technology and products. But on this trip, most of what they were showing me fell into two "ME TOO" catagories; first person perspective 3D-shooters and real time strategy games. At that point I was aware of the 24 real-time strategy games and 10 first-person shooters already in development. Yet, I grinned and bore it through their presentation. Why are publishers willing to pour MILLIONS of dollars into "ME TOO" products when they won't take even small risks on INNOVATIVE games?" "Unquote" Know when he wrote this??? 1997 !!!!!! lol this was almost 10 years ago now that he noticed and saw this trend. It's even worse today it seems. Must be 100's of rts and near that first person shooters. All nearly alike all same basic gameplay. Nothing has changed much but guess what??? THE GRAPHICS!!! I personally don't like shelling out $50 bucks after $50 bucks for a graphics facelift or some little tweaks and changes to the program at full retail price. This is how I will feel about all of the Talonsoft series that Matrixgames puts out unless their pricing changes to that of a reasonable expansion or update. These aren't going to be NEW and INNOVATING releases. They are going to be patched up plain and simple and made to work on WinXP. I don't see that as something that should cost the consumer $50 or $40 closer to $24.95 sounds more reasonable to me. ;) But, that's just me. They will price them as they see fit. I just will be one of the ones not buying them thas all. ;) For me it just seems the games I want from Matrixgames have been under lock n key for far too long. EIA, Guns of August, Combat Leader (which they scrapped if you've been keeping up with it), I was interested in that Battles of Napoleon until I read they have massacred the origional game design for something totally different. "Battles of Napoleon" was one of the greatest games of the 80's. Never understood why developers want to butcher up a remake and really turn it into something that is going to be crap instead. This "command decision" crap that keeps moving to the forefront instead of "hands-on let me play all the GD pieces". If I want to watch a "movie" I'll buy or rent a movie. When I play a game I want to play the WHOLE game, not just make some lines in the sand and then watch the animations and then get some graphical display or popup screen of what happened while I couldn't do a dam thing. ;) Too many are taking the strategy out of wargames these days. Putting in too much candy coated animations and letting the AI play the damn game instead of us. Mad Minutes two games come to mind here and the HTTR/COTA series. I was born pushing counters around the map, rolling dice, looking at combat results tables, reading the rules in manuals, I got to play the WHOLE game not just a portion of it. Hell they've already taken away rolling the dice, looking at combat results tables away from us and what manuals??? lol All we have left is "pushing the counters around the computer screen" and hell they want to take that away from us also. ;) Oh well enough ranting thing is "nobody cares what anyone else thinks anyways". I sometimes wonder why we even do this myself. ;) I do it killing time while my dialup is downloading the umpteenth video card patch from Nvidia at 40+mb. Man I dread the day when regular patches become 100+mb monsters. lol

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/26/2006 11:39:36 PM)
Not to refute you ravinhood, but, 50 bucks for a next version of a game is easy :) Try keeping up with an ASL habit hehe. 90 bucks just for a ASL rulebook 2 2nd printing manual ouch. New set of ASL starter kit version boards set, all 52 standard boards (I don't even want to do the math to find out what the price would be). But, I have always known, too many out there think you can put perfume on a pig and it makes a difference hehe. There hasn't been near the "new" in games lately as there was for a large chunk of the 90s.

ravinhood -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/27/2006 2:40:49 AM)
Thing is with ASL you ARE getting new stuff, not just a refurbished origional ASL game with better board graphics or unit counter graphics. You ARE getting your moneys worth with the ASL series. The same game for the same $50 is not the same as an ASL upgrade sorry to say. ;)

Sarge -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/27/2006 5:16:25 AM)
What is this ASL upgrade your talking about [&:] I am a ASL fanatic but have to admit I have not been following all the new stuff released in the last year, but I am unaware of any upgrade.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/27/2006 5:27:19 AM)
ASL Upgrade is not a term that describes it well enough. ASL has a version 1 manual, that, likely would be plenty fine if you had the modules and simply didn't care if a bit of rules text had been revamped since then. ASL has the 2nd edition manual now though. Largely a reflection of how MMP had to get it all back into print when they took over the stewardship of the game. A lot of errata was phased into the text, some areas were revamped to reflect changes the community were wanting done. Basically, it's the same deal with TOAW. If you have TOAW CoW, you really don't "need" TOAW3 genuinely. But, being a stick in the mud about it "might" cause troubles later against opponents that ARE using it (this also happens with ASL). When MMP released the 2nd edition manual, a new comer looking to get one, risked getting trampled by the veteran players rushing to buy their own copy. The supplies were depleted incredibly fast. That's why I identify my copy as a 2nd printing copy (with even further editting perks thrown in).

Sarge -> RE: Talk of Matrix Games and pricing of re releases (6/27/2006 5:35:28 AM)
I see, I was aware of the update of the rules in the � 2nd edition �, I just thought I missed some big upgrade the way Ravinhood was rambling. I should know better [:D]

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