Looking for sources of how stats are determined (Full Version)

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nmleague -> Looking for sources of how stats are determined (6/20/2006 8:53:26 PM)

There is a discussion among beta testers as to how gross punt distance is determined.

So far I can only find one source, the NCAA offical statistics manual, which states that the gross punt distance if determined from the LOS to the point where it is caught, downed, ruled dead or goes out of bounds. The rule for FG is different, the distance for a FG is from the spot at which the ball is kicked to the goal posts. This agrees with how I thought the the distances were determined.

Can anyone verify that the NFL uses the same rule, or can anyone point out a rule source for the NFL that has this information. I have been searching the web put cannot find an official way how the NFL determines these distances.



Marauders -> RE: Looking for sources of how stats are determined (6/20/2006 10:46:53 PM)

A punt is measured from the line of scrimmage.

A punt is considered an offensive play, while a field goal is considered a try.




DirkGildun -> RE: Looking for sources of how stats are determined (6/21/2006 6:01:57 AM)

Actually, in the NFL, I don't think that a punt is counted as an offensive play. Only runs and passes (completed, incompleted/intercepted, and sacks) are counted.



DirkGildun -> RE: Looking for sources of how stats are determined (6/21/2006 6:05:33 AM)

Yes, the NFL and NCAA rules for punt and FG distances are the same. As you said, punts are measured from the LOS, and FG's are measured from the holder's spot.



Magnum357 -> RE: Looking for sources of how stats are determined (6/21/2006 7:18:03 AM)

I think Dirk maybe right about punts (I might be wrong on this though).  I think in the NFL, Punts are considered actual Special Teams plays so they are not counted as Offensive Plays like Run and Pass plays are.  Now if this is the case, I'm not sure then what a Fake Punt or Fake FG would be considered as.  My only guess would be that they ARE considered actual Offensive Plays for Stat Purposes.

Ya, I think the Punts are calcuated from the LOS in both the NFL and NCAA.  Feildgoals are calculated from the spot of the kick.  I kinda with though that they calculate the FG Stat Distances from the LOS like Punts, but that would probably confuse people if you did it that way.



Deltadog -> RE: Looking for sources of how stats are determined (6/21/2006 5:33:35 PM)

I don't know how they measure FG now, but if you look at the film of Tom Dempsey's 63 yard fieldgoal (Saints vs Lions) you can see that the holder placed the ball down on the 3 yard mark inside the line stripe with the round graphic.  As the ball goes over the cross bar, you can see it was located right on the goal line.  Then as the camera pans back to the kicker, you can see it pass the 50 and see the graphic on the 40.  This means the ball was kicked from 3 yards inside the Saints 40 (37) which is 63 yards from the goal line and the cross bar.  (The film is on the net, search using the name Tom Dempsey)  This means they measured it from the point of the kick to the cross bar.



dreamtheatervt -> RE: Looking for sources of how stats are determined (6/21/2006 6:25:24 PM)

This applies at all levels of american football (The CFL is probably the same, but I never looked into it)

Gross punting is the distance from the line of scrimage to the place it is caught, downed, or goes out of bounds.

Net punting is the distance from the LOS to the place the play the ball carrier is tackled or fumbled, or where the ball is downed or goes OOB if the receiving team does not play the ball.

Fieldgoals are measured from the spot of the ball to the field goal post.

Dempsy made his when the goalposts were still on the goalline, as opposed to its current configuration on the endline, which is why it appears to be much further than it is.  Also, with FG's being shown from behind the kicker now as opposed to the side of the field, it is much harder to appriciate how far a 50 yard fieldgoal actually is.



Marauders -> RE: Looking for sources of how stats are determined (6/21/2006 6:26:39 PM)

quote:

Actually, in the NFL, I don't think that a punt is counted as an offensive play. Only runs and passes (completed, incompleted/intercepted, and sacks) are counted.


I understand what you are saying. For statistics like yards per play, punts are not counted as offensive plays. Punts are also not considered offensive yardage.

A punt is an action taken on an offensive series of downs, is a play from scrimmage, and does not result in a try.

What matters with a punt is the distance from the old line of scrimmage to the new line of scrimmage. Where the punter is at when the kick is made is moot. At least that is how the statisticians thought when they decided how to measure a punt in gross and net yards.

With a field goal, there is an attempt at a try. What matters with this kick is the distance kicked across the cross bar. This could be measured from the line of scrimmage, but it is measured from the spot of the kick. I guess some stats guy wanted to see which kicker could kick the farthest like a ball in the air statistic for quarterback throws.



MjH -> RE: Looking for sources of how stats are determined (6/21/2006 6:32:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamtheatervt

This applies at all levels of american football (The CFL is probably the same, but I never looked into it)


Yes, the CFL (and all other levels of Canadian football, I believe) use the LOS for punts and spot of the ball for field goals.



Breeze -> RE: Looking for sources of how stats are determined (6/23/2006 6:03:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Deltadog

I don't know how they measure FG now, but if you look at the film of Tom Dempsey's 63 yard fieldgoal (Saints vs Lions) you can see that the holder placed the ball down on the 3 yard mark inside the line stripe with the round graphic.  As the ball goes over the cross bar, you can see it was located right on the goal line.  Then as the camera pans back to the kicker, you can see it pass the 50 and see the graphic on the 40.  This means the ball was kicked from 3 yards inside the Saints 40 (37) which is 63 yards from the goal line and the cross bar.  (The film is on the net, search using the name Tom Dempsey)  This means they measured it from the point of the kick to the cross bar.


To clarify: Back then, the goal posts in the NFL were on the goal line. So a 63-yard kick would come from the team's own 37.

Now the goal posts are on the end line (10 yards back), so when Jason Elam tied Dempsey's record a few years ago, he kicked it from his own 47, and the ball traveled 63 yards to the goal post.

So the measurment method hasn't changed, just the location of the crossbar has.



Marauders -> RE: Looking for sources of how stats are determined (6/23/2006 7:04:46 AM)

quote:

So the measurement method hasn't changed, just the location of the crossbar has.


That is correct. 

One thing the official stats do not note is that kicks from the hash marks actually must go farther than kicks from the center of the field to reach the cross bar.  It is no big deal, but I thought I'd mention it.



Magnum357 -> RE: Looking for sources of how stats are determined (6/23/2006 11:30:15 AM)

Good Point Marauder.  I forgot about angled Feildgoal Kicks.  In the NFL its not as big a deal (much narrower Hash marks), but in College and Highschool, if the ball is on the extreme left and Right Sides of the Feild, FG Attempts can be more difficult too complete compared too straight on Attempts because you are kicking at an angle.



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