Myitkyina to Ledo (Full Version)

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MarcA -> Myitkyina to Ledo (6/21/2006 4:07:16 PM)

In the stock map the Myitkiyina-Ledo road is shown as a trail. When I press "r" it is shown light red, like a trail. I have about 15 units retreating down it like it was a road or possibly a rail track. This is good as they will make it to Ledo in less than a week. It is also bad because if I can do it can the Japs?

Saves are avaiable.

In the last 8 game days in Burma I have had an automatic deliberate attack set for my troops which which disrupted me so badly I lost Manadalay. The forces then retreated the wrong way, towards Lashio, not India. They then retreated back on themselves across the river when they were shock attacked again, so they are now heading the right way on the Mandalay-Myitkiyina road. And they are now warping down the Myitkyina to Ledo road as if they are all fitted with quad bikes. The whole ground combat/movement thing needs some serious attention as this is just turning into a pointless exercise.



Feinder -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/21/2006 4:28:59 PM)

Lots about ground combat is confusticating/frustrating.  But believe it or not, it used to be much worse (but could certainly still be greatly improved).

Retreats - Retreats simply gain the next hex for free.  As in, you move the 60 miles immediately.  If your opponent shocks-with-pursue, he can chase you all the way back to Ledo in less than a week (usually cosidered gamey).

While you got pushed to 60 miles in one day from the retreat, a non-pursing (simply moving) unit, will have to pay normal movement costs to actually enter your hex (so it should take a while).

The retreat towards China, instead of India from Mandalay.  Very annoying.  I had it happen to me once.  You can somewhat control the retreat path, if you "mark" the hex you want as yours (to India) with a ZOC, but leave the other hex towards China and the base beyond it, as never entered (no ZOC marked).  Your troops will be more inclined to follow your marked ZOC towards India, rather than the non-ZOC hex towards China.

Good grief.  A fire alarm...

[8|]

-F-



MarcA -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/21/2006 4:43:11 PM)

EDIT: I scrubbed this post. See the posts below for a full explanation of the problem




jwilkerson -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/21/2006 4:45:34 PM)

Much of the important movement constraints in the game are controlled by hexside attributes which live in the PWHEX file. Originally we had a condition we called "catapult movement" whereby if for example, a road became a trail and you were moving from the road to the trail, you entered at the road movement rate in one direction, but left at the trail movement rate in the other direction. The accelerated movement in the one direction was called catapult movement. At some point, 1.5 or 1.6 maybe, Andrew Brown's transport net hexside attributes were ported over into the stock PWHEX file. This significantly curtailed catapult movement. However, when playing on stock map, I still sometimes think I see accelerated movement in a few places and Burma is a place where it is certainly more noticable.

As to retreats, the engine does retreat eligible units 1 hex in 1 day, though we must view this as an abstraction. The alternative, leaving them in the first hex, would also be objectionable as then the battle would just continue.




MarcA -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/21/2006 5:01:20 PM)

EDIT: Post scrubbed. There is a better explanation of the problem below.





jwilkerson -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/21/2006 5:28:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mantill

Joe, this is not a retreat affect and I don't think it's entirey catapult effect. I Have worked out the movement better.

The force SE of Ledo did 45 miles in the Myitkyina hex 3 days ago, cleared the Mytikyina hex and did another 30 miles on the trail (catapult effect) and then yesterday did another 45 miles to leave it 15 miles into the second trail hex. This second day of rail movement wouldn't be classified as catapult moevment would it?
The force just NE of Myitkyina is following the same movement pattern, though they set of 1 day after the other force, so they are now located 30 miles intot he first trail hex.






2nd day catapult movement ? Well depends on the hexside attributes ... I'm not a diviner of hexside attributes, perhaps I'll ask Andrew to check your PWHEx file. The "hardcoded" foot movement rate for trails in 100% perfect conditions is 5 mpd, though this is often halved a time or so, thus there are indications that this might be catapult movement. So, I'll try to nudge Andrew to have a look.

But I guess even with the pictures, I'm not clear what is happening or even which side "you" are playing. Maybe you could "baby talk" me through it slowly !
[:D]








MarcA -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/21/2006 5:36:31 PM)

Joe, I'll put some images togther for you this evening to try to make it clearer. As for my pwhex file, I have never installed an alternate map so it should be the one that comes with the stock game, as patched to v1.8.






MarcA -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 12:22:47 AM)

OK Joe, I have some pictures which show whats going on. In some cases units are catapulted 30 miles down the trail to Ledo, from Myitkyina, in one day. In a couple of cases the units are catapulted 75 miles and pass clean through the first trauil hex and pop up 15 miles into the second trail hex.

In the opper image below the 49th Chinese Division starts in the Myitkyina hex, having travelled 45 mikes towards Ledo. The next day, in the lower image, the unit has travelled a total of 90 miles to appear on the trail in the hex next to Ledo.


[image]local://upfiles/15658/E907FAAF908D47E2B467C9BBB9A320D1.jpg[/image]



MarcA -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 12:26:11 AM)

In this second image the the 101 RAF BF moves the same as the 49th Chinese Division above, moving 90 miles in one day and catapulting a ttoal of 75 miles down the trail clear into the next hex.



[image]local://upfiles/15658/048725160E4E4945BEC7A506203AE990.jpg[/image]



MarcA -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 12:32:55 AM)

In the next case the 107 RAF BF starts at the same point as the 49th chinese division and the 101 RAF BF, i.e. in the Myitkyina hex 45 miles down the road towards Ledo. However, unliek the other two units the 107th only travels 45 miles in one day, ending up 30 miles down the trail in the hex next to Myitkyina.



[image]local://upfiles/15658/0C989CA5B65C4796B5BB5AB705FE4AAA.jpg[/image]



dtravel -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 12:45:16 AM)

The units all started in a rail hex, so they moved at rail move speeds.  From day 1 this game has always calulated movement costs from the hex the unit is in, not the hex it is moving to.



Hanzberger -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 1:03:01 AM)

GEEZ I hope Feinder is ok .....(fire alarm) [sm=00000003.gif]



jwilkerson -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 1:21:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

The units all started in a rail hex, so they moved at rail move speeds.  From day 1 this game has always calulated movement costs from the hex the unit is in, not the hex it is moving to.


Yes, except I thought that Andrew's "anti-catapult hex side attributes" got added to the stock PWHEX file somewhere around patch 1.5 (+/- a patch) ... I've asked Andrew to jump in here and look at Mantill's PWHEX file. Seems like Mantill "retro'd" somehow.






dtravel -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 1:37:00 AM)

1.6.  A lot of hexsides got changed regarding land, water, both or impassable and the readme says:
quote:

  
1)       The major change is a modification to the way the presence of rail/road/trail links between hexes are represented. The change is intended to prevent the 'bug' which allows LCUs to move from a hex containing rail/road/trails, to a hex that does not, at a fast movement rate - as if the rail/road/trail DID join the two hexes.



But I've never noticed any change in this movement behaviour.  I see the same kind of "slingshot" movement in my current 1.8+ game and I've never even downloaded any mods, let alone installed them.



jwilkerson -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 1:43:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

1.6.  A lot of hexsides got changed regarding land, water, both or impassable and the readme says:
quote:

  
1)       The major change is a modification to the way the presence of rail/road/trail links between hexes are represented. The change is intended to prevent the 'bug' which allows LCUs to move from a hex containing rail/road/trails, to a hex that does not, at a fast movement rate - as if the rail/road/trail DID join the two hexes.



But I've never noticed any change in this movement behaviour.  I see the same kind of "slingshot" movement in my current 1.8+ game and I've never even downloaded any mods, let alone installed them.


Well Andrew should be able to help sort this out. The words in the patch note you pasted above, definitely sound like the "anti-catapult movement" fix.




Ron Saueracker -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 2:25:05 AM)

quote:

As to retreats, the engine does retreat eligible units 1 hex in 1 day, though we must view this as an abstraction. The alternative, leaving them in the first hex, would also be objectionable as then the battle would just continue.


I always believed that this could have been dealt with as movement is, with the retreat merely adjusting the movement point accumulation of the units in a hex. The full hex retreat is a throwback to smaller scale hex based systems.

This is one of the many frustrating aspects of a large game built on a collection of earlier game systems basically stitched together in the hope that it might work. Why we have land pursuits and no ability for naval units to perform a similar function is a good example of this.

I always thought that having the larger hexes each contain 23 smaller hexes may have been workable. Map zooms as each larger hex is clicked.



jwilkerson -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 3:44:58 AM)

quote:

I always thought that having the larger hexes each contain 23 smaller hexes may have been workable. Map zooms as each larger hex is clicked.


What would the purpose of the larger hexes be? I mean why not just go with the smaller hexes and call it good ?





dtravel -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 3:59:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

I always thought that having the larger hexes each contain 23 smaller hexes may have been workable. Map zooms as each larger hex is clicked.


What would the purpose of the larger hexes be? I mean why not just go with the smaller hexes and call it good ?


Shhhh! You're not supposed to ask intelligent questions like that about this game. [;)] Oh, wait, that's right, you're one of the programmers. What are you doing here? [:'(]








(Sorry Joe, its just too flipping hot where I am and its just made the smartass in me too powerful to resist. [:D])



Ron Saueracker -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 4:06:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

quote:

I always thought that having the larger hexes each contain 23 smaller hexes may have been workable. Map zooms as each larger hex is clicked.


What would the purpose of the larger hexes be? I mean why not just go with the smaller hexes and call it good ?





Basically the larger hex map allows for a quick reference, easy to read icons etc. Would facilitate the meshing of game designs (WITP is really just a quick fusion of a number of GG games into one) more readily as well, especially regarding the varying issues surrounding combat mediums...air and sea movement could have stayed with the larger hex while land combat needed the extra hexes to work acceptably. But yeah, aside from a quick attempt to make the patchwork function the smaller hexes were the way to go if starting from scratch.



Andrew Brown -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 4:25:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

1.6. A lot of hexsides got changed regarding land, water, both or impassable and the readme says:
quote:


1) The major change is a modification to the way the presence of rail/road/trail links between hexes are represented. The change is intended to prevent the 'bug' which allows LCUs to move from a hex containing rail/road/trails, to a hex that does not, at a fast movement rate - as if the rail/road/trail DID join the two hexes.



But I've never noticed any change in this movement behaviour. I see the same kind of "slingshot" movement in my current 1.8+ game and I've never even downloaded any mods, let alone installed them.


Well Andrew should be able to help sort this out. The words in the patch note you pasted above, definitely sound like the "anti-catapult movement" fix.




Plase note that "catapult" movement still exists. The change I introduced into the map data file (that eventually was incorporated into the official map data) was that the effect no longer occurs when moving from a hex with a link (road/railway/trail) to one without, such as an adjacent jungle hex.

Now the effect only occurs when moving from a hex containing a link to an adjacent hex that also contains a link, and the link also connects the two hexes together. That is the situation you see in the case above.

The LCUs in "Myitkiyina" are in a hex that is in the map data as a "railway" hex. Note that the link type (railway/road/trail/none) is per HEX, NOT per HEXSIDE. That is an important distinction that is the root cause of the "catapult" effect in the first place. When the LCU moves from Myitkiyina, towards Ledo, it takes the movement rate of the hex it is leaving. Not the hex it is entering. So it moves at a railway rate, which is up to 90 miles per day. Depending on how many miles the LCU has already travelled in the hex itself, this means that it can move up to TWO hexes along the trail. For example, the No.107 RAF Base force starts with 45 miles moved, but it is still within the Myitkiyina hex. As its movement rate will be that when using a railway, it can then move up to 90 miles in the following turn. That can be enough for it to jump two hexes, even though the intervening hex contains a trail instead of a railway. It is an unfortunate simplification in the game code.

This effect cannot be removed by manipulating the map data file, as it occurs because of the way the game code operates. I WAS able to remove it in the cases where LCUs move from a hex containing a railway to a hex that does not contain any railway/road/trail, and that has been done for my map, and also for the official map post patch 1.6, but this is not the case above.

Note that I did state this in the wording above from the 1.6 README,as I have emphasised here:

quote:

1) The major change is a modification to the way the presence of rail/road/trail links between hexes are represented. The change is intended to prevent the 'bug' which allows LCUs to move from a hex containing rail/road/trails, to a hex that does not, at a fast movement rate - as if the rail/road/trail DID join the two hexes.


If anyone wants to know why the two sitations are different, and why catapult movement can be removed in one situation but not the other just using manipulation of the map data, then I can explain that in more detail.

Andrew

Edited for typos (and added the word "unfortunate" [:)])



dtravel -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 4:32:10 AM)

I told y[image]http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/fighting/fighting0064.gif[/image] [image]http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/fighting/fighting0029.gif[/image]



jwilkerson -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 4:35:16 AM)

So bottom line, I can't catapult myself into the deep dark jungle anymore .. but I can still catapult myself down a trail through the deep dark jungle. Ok, now we know, thanks Andrew !




FeurerKrieg -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 10:22:30 AM)

So the units that have made it 15 miles into the hex-adjacent-to-Ledo, will now start moving at the 5 miles (or less) rate from a trail correct?

Also, from a Jap standpoint, while the LCU's could catapult down the trail, their supplies are still only going to trickle at the trail rate, right? Or will the LCUs bring supplies with them on the catapult ride?



Andrew Brown -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 10:39:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

So the units that have made it 15 miles into the hex-adjacent-to-Ledo, will now start moving at the 5 miles (or less) rate from a trail correct?


That is my understanding. They should go to, say, 20 miles travelled (or less), next turn. I would be interested to hear what actually happens.

quote:

Also, from a Jap standpoint, while the LCU's could catapult down the trail, their supplies are still only going to trickle at the trail rate, right? Or will the LCUs bring supplies with them on the catapult ride?


That is right. Note though, that according to the manual at least (so it may not be correct), supply paths are traced from a base to an LCU, so if this is done in the same way that overland movement is calculated, a unit on the trail adjacent to Myitkiyina will receive supply as if it was on a connecting railway line, since the program will count the Myitkiyina hex as a "railway" hex. If, on the other hand, the program doesn't include the base hex itself in the path, but DOES count the hex that the LCU is sitting in, then that hex will be counted as a "trail" hex, and the supply line will suffer the resulting 25% penalty.

I have always wondered which way the program calculates the supply paths, but I have never tried to work out which way it does it. Maybe it works in some other unrelated way - only the coders know for sure.

Andrew



MarcA -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 10:43:15 AM)

The lcu's have an amount of supply they carry with them, that listed in the lcu screen. As they use them up the supplies will then be arriving at a trickle, or as Andrew says will depend on the supply path calculation.

The problem here is that it should take about 6-7 weeks to traverse the trail, with catapult you can be there in under 10 days. This means that there is not enough time to draft troops in for a defensive stand, unless they are already at hand, and obviouly reduces the window for air missions against the advancing enemy. It also reduces supply problems in the amount of time they need to be supplied at trickle rates

Of course it will work both ways, but suddenly the overland route through Burma doesn't look so bad anymore



Andrew Brown -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 10:46:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mantill
Of course it will work both ways...


That is a very important point, by the way. If an LCU travels along the trail to Ledo, it will move into the Ledo hex at a "trail" movement rate, even though the Ledo hex itself contains "railway" links, since the hex being moved FROM is a "trail" hex.

Andrew



jwilkerson -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/22/2006 4:23:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: mantill
Of course it will work both ways...


That is a very important point, by the way. If an LCU travels along the trail to Ledo, it will move into the Ledo hex at a "trail" movement rate, even though the Ledo hex itself contains "railway" links, since the hex being moved FROM is a "trail" hex.

Andrew


But when the Allies come back ( which is what I think Mantill means by both ways ) they will get catapulted out of Ledo enroute to Mytchina. I just had (in stock) one of the "USA Provisional Tank Bdes" pass another, both were moving Ledo to Mytchina. The 6th had been on the trail for a number of days and was 2 hexes out of Ledo enroute to Mytchina (I already owned both hexes) ... the 2nd USA PTB, due to accumulated MPs slung itself out of its catapult so hard, that it not only caught up with the 6th, but passed it and ran down the rail to Mandalay before the 6th could clear Mytchina !!! (just pointing out an exmaple of "works both ways".

Well Burma has been one of my pet peaves, from a movement perspective. I was one of the orginal guys badgering AB to increase the "trailification" of his map in that area ... which has worked pretty well (too well in some cases !). But now that I understand that the catapult movement can only be controlled so far, with the hex (not hexside !) attributes, we will have to take this issue under "advisement".




afspret -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/23/2006 8:18:34 AM)

While were at it, could someone explain the road/rail line between Myitkyina and Mandalaya? It looks more like a trench[&:]. As far as movement rates, the allies seem to travel it like its road but the IJA travels it likes a rail line. Also, I can find no similar symbol on the legend in the lower right corner of the map.



dtravel -> RE: Myitkyina to Ledo (6/23/2006 8:38:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: afspret

While were at it, could someone explain the road/rail line between Myitkyina and Mandalaya? It looks more like a trench[&:]. As far as movement rates, the allies seem to travel it like its road but the IJA travels it likes a rail line. Also, I can find no similar symbol on the legend in the lower right corner of the map.


Its rail. It just has that sunken look because it is going thru jungle. You can see the same visual effect between Rahaeng and Bangkok.



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