What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (Full Version)

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fei_hung -> What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 4:10:01 AM)

Anyone can give some guides/tips on the best way to use local and tatical reserve ?

Thanks



larryfulkerson -> Wjat is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 4:11:36 AM)

I've heard bad things about local reserve, but I use Tactical reserve all the time on my defensive positions. 



golden delicious -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 4:16:47 AM)

The most common use of tactical reserve by experienced players tends to be for artillery which you want to fire passively but has used all its move or you wish to move again later in the turn. Be careful with this as it can lead to artillery jumping into the frontlines and getting itself massacred. If you can, set units to dig-in at the end of your turn.

Tactical reserve can also be used effectively with things like AT companies or heavy tank battalions. Be warned that if your opponent notices you making use of this feature he may exploit it by making a series of diversionary attacks to draw the reserve off to an irrelevant part of the line. However tactical reserve can sometimes be useful- in particular you could use it in support of the second hexrow of a double line, which presumably the enemy would only be in contact with at one or two points, making the above tactic impractical.

Local reserve is pretty much useless. Units on this setting will tend to zig-zag their way forward, moving first in the direction of one threatened area, then toward another.



fei_hung -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 5:21:44 AM)

Found one article on this at rugged defence

http://www.the-strategist.net/RD/docs/strategy/Cross-Reserves.php



a white rabbit -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 8:09:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

The most common use of tactical reserve by experienced players tends to be for artillery which you want to fire passively but has used all its move or you wish to move again later in the turn. Be careful with this as it can lead to artillery jumping into the frontlines and getting itself massacred. If you can, set units to dig-in at the end of your turn.



.


..only if P1, P2 artillery dig-ins come live again in next turn, so gallantly throw themselves into the combat



golden delicious -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 4:11:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..only if P1, P2 artillery dig-ins come live again in next turn, so gallantly throw themselves into the combat


What? If a unit is dug-in, it will no longer be in tactical reserve.



Catch21 -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 5:10:23 PM)

My advice- NEVER EVER use Local Reserves. Against any reasonable opponent (not to mention Elmer), he'll have your unit(s) dancing in the streets or fields under arty fire. The article mentioned helps on Tactical Reserves but I'd ignore anything regarding Local Reserves.

Tactical Reserve. What GD says is sound. In WWI for example I think it can help tremendously. Try The Reserves and Rotation System: Rotate units in and out of combat as they wear down. Split units into 3. Have 2 units in the line with the third (weakest?) one hex behind. Dig all in and place the third unit on Tactical Reserve IF you feel its arrival in the front line may help to 'burn' enemy rounds and if it is in reasonable shape. Otherwise use this rear position to both rest units and construct secondary lines, preferably in good supply. If possible only 2 out of 3 'pieces' of any unit should be in the front line- if only one is attacked you may be able to rotate units in and out of combat so that 2 out of the 3 are in reasonable shape.

Otherwise for reserves just try and keep a totally computer-independent Strategic Reserve, scenario-dependent size.

Hope this helps.



golden delicious -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 5:15:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

Otherwise for reserves just try and keep a totally computer-independent Strategic Reserve, scenario-dependent size.


In a lot of scenarios, it's almost as easy to pull units off the line to react to a crisis elsewhere as it is to use a reserve. I tend not to form a reserve unless I happen to have a number of units available and no obvious immediate uses for them.



Catch21 -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 7:30:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff
Otherwise for reserves just try and keep a totally computer-independent Strategic Reserve, scenario-dependent size.

In a lot of scenarios, it's almost as easy to pull units off the line to react to a crisis elsewhere as it is to use a reserve. I tend not to form a reserve unless I happen to have a number of units available and no obvious immediate uses for them.

Scenario-dependent can range from zero up. If you're playing Soviets in some Berlin 45 scenario, hey what have you got to worry about? Move em here, move em there. Who cares? We're going to win and everyone knows it.

But in something like playing Axis in Fortress Stalingrad 42 as an example, having the 27th Panzer Division out of Soviet sight (or even in it) can make a BIG difference to Soviet plans. The Axis may be in desperate trouble, but they can still mount effective counter-attacks. Keeping the Soviets guessing can help with initiative- not that you start with it at all or get to win it or keep it, but it can help with survival.

Sometimes units available and no immediate use for them means their use is just keeping the enemy guessing. It can among the enemy cause unnecessary casualties, panic, supply drain and your boys are just sitting pretty somewhere carefully chosen to react when really needed.



golden delicious -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 8:49:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

Scenario-dependent can range from zero up. If you're playing Soviets in some Berlin 45 scenario, hey what have you got to worry about? Move em here, move em there. Who cares? We're going to win and everyone knows it.


Well, if the scenario's well designed then you should have to play well within the parameters of the scenario in order to win. In this case, I'd say the trick would be to see where opportunities are developing, and pull forces off less promising areas of the line to throw into the critical areas so as to best exploit said opportunities.

quote:

But in something like playing Axis in Fortress Stalingrad 42 as an example, having the 27th Panzer Division out of Soviet sight (or even in it) can make a BIG difference to Soviet plans. The Axis may be in desperate trouble, but they can still mount effective counter-attacks. Keeping the Soviets guessing can help with initiative- not that you start with it at all or get to win it or keep it, but it can help with survival.


I'd definitely advocate keeping the counterattacking option open- and you're right than sometimes a unit can be more valuable in potentia than actually comitted. However I'd be leary of keeping it idle for more than a turn or two in such a serious situation.



hank -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 9:30:43 PM)

If Local Reserves are of little or no use at all, as I read in several posts here and in other threads, of what use is it to designate a Unit as a Local Reserve?

Is it a useless feature that needs to be eliminated from the game?

thanks




82nd Airborne -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 10:10:22 PM)

I've used them, it is just that the situations that they are useful for are usally pretty limited compared to tac reserve. I wouldn't recommend eliminating them. No harm done when not in use. They do come in handy sometimes.

In the seige of Leningrad, me as the Russians, I only had 1 kick ass unit available for reserve, but I didn't know where the main push would come from so I put it on local reserve and it dutifully responded to the attack from the north by those treacherous Finns. [;)]

Had I chose tac reserve, I would have most likely had it on the southern front , and it would have not been able to contribute.




hank -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 10:36:19 PM)

Thanks ... that give me a clue as to how to use this setting. 



Catch21 -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (6/30/2006 10:46:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hank
Is it a useless feature that needs to be eliminated from the game?

The problem is that Local Reserve means that it moves towards an attack on your lines. That depends what's being attacked and when in a turn- which round? So it can result in your units heading for the front on Route 1 only to find another attack occurring later, then being pulled back on Route 1 to the intersection to respond then moving out on Route 2 for instance.

The end result if you're lucky is your units might make it in time to help. If not you've a reserve that starts out when you open your turn with little or no remaining movement points. Totally useless and sometimes in very bad terrain in the open overstacked and with no possibility to dig in (0 MPs). If a reasonable player ever realizes you're using Local Reserve, he will use it against you. And it's fairly easy to spot. It's going to take AI improvement to sort this. For now there are uses for Tactical Reserve (1 hex reaction) but I'd avoid Local like the plague.

Another suggestion. Try your own theories out in hotseat mode to see how they do or don't work. Take 'Fog of War' off so you can see better. Nothing like practice and you're always going to be your own best friend or worst enemy.



82nd Airborne -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (7/1/2006 12:16:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

The problem is that Local Reserve means that it moves towards an attack on your lines. That depends what's being attacked and when in a turn- which round? So it can result in your units heading for the front on Route 1 only to find another attack occurring later, then being pulled back on Route 1 to the intersection to respond then moving out on Route 2 for instance.

The end result if you're lucky is your units might make it in time to help. If not you've a reserve that starts out when you open your turn with little or no remaining movement points. Totally useless and sometimes in very bad terrain in the open overstacked and with no possibility to dig in (0 MPs). If a reasonable player ever realizes you're using Local Reserve, he will use it against you. And it's fairly easy to spot. It's going to take AI improvement to sort this. For now there are uses for Tactical Reserve (1 hex reaction) but I'd avoid Local like the plague.



those are certainly potential drawbacks, but in the event you don't know where the attack is, it is better than nothing. Like I said the situations it is useful are not that prevelant, but it has worked for me several times, and very rarely had the negative effects you note.
As for realizing you are using it, how does a reasonable player know? I rarely can see beyond the first line, and am constantly hit with tac reserves I had no idea were there when I attack, with local res presumably at least one more hex in the rear, it should be fairly hard to detect I would think.



Catch21 -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (7/1/2006 1:00:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 82nd Airborne
those are certainly potential drawbacks, but in the event you don't know where the attack is, it is better than nothing. Like I said the situations it is useful are not that prevelant, but it has worked for me several times, and very rarely had the negative effects you note.
As for realizing you are using it, how does a reasonable player know? I rarely can see beyond the first line, and am constantly hit with tac reserves I had no idea were there when I attack, with local res presumably at least one more hex in the rear, it should be fairly hard to detect I would think.

It's scenario and opponent-dependent. A reasonable player viewing a PBEM replay will detect it. Then use it against you. Send me a PBEM turn and I'll point out what can be deduced.

I can only repeat- it's a high learning curve but IMO well worth it. Read everything you can get your hands on. Try your own tactics against yourself first in either hotseat or PBEM mode before taking them out for a drive elsewhere. That way you'll either avoid any embarrassment or recognize your brilliance before anyone else does. Then try again and repeat dosage as necessary.



golden delicious -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (7/1/2006 1:10:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hank

Is it a useless feature that needs to be eliminated from the game?


I don't see the reason to eliminate it. It's not hurting anyone.



golden delicious -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (7/1/2006 1:14:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 82nd Airborne

those are certainly potential drawbacks, but in the event you don't know where the attack is, it is better than nothing.


Worse than nothing if your opponent knows you're using it. He'll always make sure to set up a series of minor, diversionary attacks in the wrong area of the line. These will execute first, due to the way TOAW works, and your unit will cheerfully bugger off into the sunset.

quote:

As for realizing you are using it, how does a reasonable player know? I rarely can see beyond the first line, and am constantly hit with tac reserves I had no idea were there when I attack, with local res presumably at least one more hex in the rear, it should be fairly hard to detect I would think.


If you see a unit move in response to your attacks which isn't moving directly into the attacked hex, that's local reserve. What's more, if your opponent is using local reserve in one place, he might well be using it in others. Plus, diversionary attacks are a good idea anyway. They don't need to be designed for this specific purpose.



golden delicious -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (7/1/2006 1:15:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff

A reasonable player viewing a PBEM replay will detect it.


...no. It'll be in your own turn. You won't see anything in the replay.



Catch21 -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (7/1/2006 11:12:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
quote:

ORIGINAL: General Staff
A reasonable player viewing a PBEM replay will detect it.

...no. It'll be in your own turn. You won't see anything in the replay.

Ben. You're dead right and thanks. It's been so long since I played. Remember S&T, but mechanics rusty. Can't wait for my new copy to get here. So no PBEM turns please, but try any scenario hotseat using local reserves and I hope you'll see what I mean.



Custer7 -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (7/4/2006 9:13:38 AM)

I've been using local reserves for years now with a lot of success.  The first thing is that they are local reserves that are right behind the lines.  This way they respond to where you anticipate an attack.  That limits the locations thay may be drawn to, usually.  The use of tactical reserves is farther behind the lines.  They respond to a general area that has been attacked.  Well, at least for me that is what they have done.  Artillery are often put in tactical reserve and hopefully far enough back so they won't jump into the front lines.  This has really been successful in helping out various units with defensive support fire.  Especially if there is a second round. 

I also like to put ships in local reserve and tactical reserve.  It depends on the circumstances they are being used.  Larger ships in tactical help with the support fire, the smaller ones in local reserve, like destroyers to cover behind the lead ships.  This way if a hex is lost the destroyer rushes up and the larger ships help with defensive support fire.  Ships in tactical support also seem better at interdicting land movement.  In local reserve as well as tactical they seem to support land combat equally.  If left in movement mode they also do react to interdict land movement and support fire but in my experiences not as efficently. 

My use of local reserves with land units have various methods for their use.  Usually it is an infantry unit behind the lines.  It tends to join in the defense, or it may try to advance into a retreated hex.  Sometimes, when desperate, even HQ are used in this way if they are fairly good on defense.  If they have better support fire then tactical is the better mode by far.  Mobile units sometimes also are used in this manner right behind the front.  It has been useful to have tanks or assault guns rush in to help the defenders.  But they often are better in the tactical mode.  Other kinds of support, such as AT or AA are also used in this manner.  Especially if it is not motorized.  If possible it has been wise to put units in both tactical and local reserves right behind the lines as they often react differently.  Maybe my experiences are not typical.  But for me local reserves have done just what I needed them to do.  Having them too far behind the lines changes how they will react.  They can be zig zagging all over the place and end up doing nothing if too far behind the lines.  That is where tactical reserves should be. 



golden delicious -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (7/4/2006 5:30:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Custer7

I've been using local reserves for years now with a lot of success.  The first thing is that they are local reserves that are right behind the lines.  This way they respond to where you anticipate an attack.  That limits the locations thay may be drawn to, usually.  The use of tactical reserves is farther behind the lines.  They respond to a general area that has been attacked.


That doesn't make any sense. Units on tactical reserve will only move if an adjacent hex is attacked.

quote:

I also like to put ships in local reserve and tactical reserve.


Stranger and stranger. Ships cannot be set to tactical or local reserve in TOAW. What game are you playing?



Anthropoid -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (9/2/2006 8:30:20 AM)

Actually, I think there is at least one other sort of context in which LR has its use (although limited): you've got a ton of useless cheapo units that have high movement points. Say for example, a bunch of recon helicopters,  MP units, or Attack 1, defense 2 mech infantry units, or whatever, that you have broken down into thirds. Creating a veritable army of weak but fast reserves behind the lines. Create a second layer of all these dudes behind your front line and put them in LR. Your opponent pulls up to attack and checks out the prospects for attacking at various points along the line using the Plan Attack window (none of these ratios will reflect the altered ratios when the LR mobs jump in). He attacks in various places and the LR units just keep flying out of the wood work to fill in and eat up his combat rounds. Next turn, he may be wondering what else you have up your sleeve.



L`zard -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (9/2/2006 11:44:58 AM)


Myself, I've had good use of LR units in WW1 games, generally on the west front, were there are at least 3 lines of defense, or somewhere were troop density is high.

Units recovering in the 3rd line next to an HQ in a sector were an opponent's offence 'MAY' occur set to LR will march strait to the guns, lol! Stacking limits seem to obtain as a useful limit to this, as 'trench warfare' normally max's your unit per hex limit.

This seems to yield an immediate support to the 2nd defense line, and notifies me that an attack is incoming simply due to the 'button color' changing along a given front.

I'll have to try this some more, as it's something I've been doing 'instinctivly', but it seems right, neh?



JapLance -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (9/2/2006 12:43:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Custer7

I also like to put ships in local reserve and tactical reserve.


Stranger and stranger. Ships cannot be set to tactical or local reserve in TOAW. What game are you playing?


Actually you can. I'm not sure if it makes any difference to their behaviour, but if you click on the ship 3D view in the top-right corner instead of right clicking on the unit, you can set it in Local or Tactical reserve.



golden delicious -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (9/2/2006 1:43:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Actually, I think there is at least one other sort of context in which LR has its use (although limited): you've got a ton of useless cheapo units that have high movement points. Say for example, a bunch of recon helicopters,  MP units, or Attack 1, defense 2 mech infantry units, or whatever, that you have broken down into thirds. Creating a veritable army of weak but fast reserves behind the lines. Create a second layer of all these dudes behind your front line and put them in LR. Your opponent pulls up to attack and checks out the prospects for attacking at various points along the line using the Plan Attack window (none of these ratios will reflect the altered ratios when the LR mobs jump in). He attacks in various places and the LR units just keep flying out of the wood work to fill in and eat up his combat rounds. Next turn, he may be wondering what else you have up your sleeve.


That's interesting- it would probably work, too. Of course, ant units create a lot of other problems besides.



golden delicious -> RE: What is the best to use Tatical and Local reserve ? (9/2/2006 1:44:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JapLance
Actually you can. I'm not sure if it makes any difference to their behaviour, but if you click on the ship 3D view in the top-right corner instead of right clicking on the unit, you can set it in Local or Tactical reserve.


I recently encountered this myself so I stand corrected. I was just relieved to discover that selecting "Dig in" does nothing. I'm fairly confident that the reserve settings won't have any effect.



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