RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (Full Version)

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Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (7/1/2006 3:04:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I'm making changes right now to have this right.

Here is the result.
Would you find it good ?


Now I think the MWIF map in the Caucasus area looks as good as we can
hope for. [:)] IThese changes won't have any undesirable impact of game
play as I can see. So I think we should go for your latest version of
the Caucasus area map to be introduced to MWIF.

I see no need for changes now. I guess on the real MWIF
map the internal borders for Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan will
disappear?




[image]local://upfiles/19891/F251C0249C7242E8AE93F1BAF30A581C.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (7/1/2006 3:21:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
Now I think the MWIF map in the Caucasus area looks as good as we can
hope for. [:)] IThese changes won't have any undesirable impact of game
play as I can see. So I think we should go for your latest version of
the Caucasus area map to be introduced to MWIF.

I agree that this is as good as we can do, it is even better than that [:D]

quote:

I see no need for changes now. I guess on the real MWIF
map the internal borders for Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan will
disappear?

I suppose so.

In the China map thread, there was the question asked about the Chinese Provinces, and Steve ruled it out. I'm sorry about that, because I think it adds tremendous flavor & historical feeling to the game in my opinion, but I also can undestand his concerns. He plans on a release of Dec 2006, and there's so much left to do.

On the other hand, if I knew how this can be done in MWiF, I'd volunteer to give him a hand to add those Chinese Provinces, to add the USSR republics on the map too, and a couple of others too. France's Regions, or British's Counties would be straight "nay" if I'm asked, as they are too small thus cluttering the map unnecessarily, but USSR & Chinese Provinces who are the size of some Minor Countries in the game would be good to add.



c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (7/1/2006 4:13:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
I'm making changes right now to have this right.

Here is the result.
Would you find it good ?

[image]local://upfiles/10447/82A0B8D9B5594A5BBDCAF163101094D9.jpg[/image]


Good work I like it.

One thing that I noted when looking over the map is that there is a new railroad added between Astrakhan and Kuybyshev. In normal Wif the germans only need to cut the railroad west of Saratov and Penza to deny the russians the oil in caucasus unless it's shipped over the caspian sea with convoys.

I'm no expert on the russian rail network during WWII, but I don't think I like the addition of this railroad.





Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (7/1/2006 5:07:49 PM)

quote:

One thing that I noted when looking over the map is that there is a new railroad added between Astrakhan and Kuybyshev. In normal Wif the germans only need to cut the railroad west of Saratov and Penza to deny the russians the oil in caucasus unless it's shipped over the caspian sea with convoys.

I'm no expert on the russian rail network during WWII, but I don't think I like the addition of this railroad.

This bit of rail was added in the 2000 & 2004 printings of the WiF FE maps. Only the first (1996) version of the map did not have it.
So, it is normal that it is part of the MWiF maps, because now it is part of the WiF FE world (since 6 years).



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (7/1/2006 5:08:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
This bit of rail was added in the 2000 & 2004 printings of the WiF FE maps. Only the first (1996) version of the map did not have it.
So, it is normal that it is part of the MWiF maps, because now it is part of the WiF FE world (since 6 years).

On the other hand, there is a bit of rail north of Astrakhan on the MWiF maps that is absent fromt he WiF FE maps, and I'll ask Steve to remove it if he agrees.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (7/1/2006 5:11:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
This bit of rail was added in the 2000 & 2004 printings of the WiF FE maps. Only the first (1996) version of the map did not have it.
So, it is normal that it is part of the MWiF maps, because now it is part of the WiF FE world (since 6 years).

On the other hand, there is a bit of rail north of Astrakhan on the MWiF maps that is absent fromt he WiF FE maps, and I'll ask Steve to remove it if he agrees.

Humm, [:(] I think I read too fast and I thought that the bit of rail that c92nichj was talking about was the one linking Astrakhan to Baku.
I think that the one he talks about is the one I also find out to be supposed to be deleted.



Zorachus99 -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (7/1/2006 6:13:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
On the other hand, if I knew how this can be done in MWiF, I'd volunteer to give him a hand to add those Chinese Provinces, to add the USSR republics on the map too, and a couple of others too. France's Regions, or British's Counties would be straight "nay" if I'm asked, as they are too small thus cluttering the map unnecessarily, but USSR & Chinese Provinces who are the size of some Minor Countries in the game would be good to add.


Enumerating Minor countries changes all the cities within to secondary supply sources. The consequenses of this one change *might* be farther reaching than you'd expect. Look at Checkoslovakia and Austria in the RAW. They are both considered part of the Home country in scenarios that begin 1939+. This means they are primary supply sources, and home units can be built there. Both countries are recent wartime aquisitions. Were Georgia, armenia, and Azerbaijan also such? Do you want to add to the RAW?

Further comment welcomed. I could suppose there is a lot of room for debate on this. But we could have debate on the RAW terratorial organization on many many other places.

My gut feeling (did you know your gut has more nerve endings than your brain?) is that this could end up being a bag of worms.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (7/1/2006 9:48:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
On the other hand, if I knew how this can be done in MWiF, I'd volunteer to give him a hand to add those Chinese Provinces, to add the USSR republics on the map too, and a couple of others too. France's Regions, or British's Counties would be straight "nay" if I'm asked, as they are too small thus cluttering the map unnecessarily, but USSR & Chinese Provinces who are the size of some Minor Countries in the game would be good to add.


Enumerating Minor countries changes all the cities within to secondary supply sources. The consequenses of this one change *might* be farther reaching than you'd expect. Look at Checkoslovakia and Austria in the RAW. They are both considered part of the Home country in scenarios that begin 1939+. This means they are primary supply sources, and home units can be built there. Both countries are recent wartime aquisitions. Were Georgia, armenia, and Azerbaijan also such? Do you want to add to the RAW?

Further comment welcomed. I could suppose there is a lot of room for debate on this. But we could have debate on the RAW terratorial organization on many many other places.

My gut feeling (did you know your gut has more nerve endings than your brain?) is that this could end up being a bag of worms.


Could you please not use the phrases "gut feelings" and "bag of worms" in the same sentence.[sm=vomit-smiley-020.gif]

WIF FE - that is what we are recreating here. The rescaling for the unified world map necessitates changes and we are reviewing how CWIF made those decisions. That is the focus, or, more to the point, the restrictions on the discussion. Going farther afield to make modifications that cause MWIF to differ in more ways/details from WIF FE is a waste of energy and time as far as MWIF product 1 is concerned.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (7/1/2006 10:51:34 PM)

quote:

Enumerating Minor countries changes all the cities within to secondary supply sources. The consequenses of this one change *might* be farther reaching than you'd expect. Look at Checkoslovakia and Austria in the RAW. They are both considered part of the Home country in scenarios that begin 1939+. This means they are primary supply sources, and home units can be built there. Both countries are recent wartime aquisitions. Were Georgia, armenia, and Azerbaijan also such? Do you want to add to the RAW?

Zorachus99, I'm not saying that Azerbaijan, Georgia, Armenia and the Chinese provinces should be minor countries, I'm just saying that it would be fun, pretty and give a welcomed historical feel to the game, to have them drawn on the map.
Drawn only, without any play impact. No new city, no new capital city, no new minor power, no new Austria or Czechoslovakia.



Zorachus99 -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (7/2/2006 6:48:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Enumerating Minor countries changes all the cities within to secondary supply sources. The consequenses of this one change *might* be farther reaching than you'd expect. Look at Checkoslovakia and Austria in the RAW. They are both considered part of the Home country in scenarios that begin 1939+. This means they are primary supply sources, and home units can be built there. Both countries are recent wartime aquisitions. Were Georgia, armenia, and Azerbaijan also such? Do you want to add to the RAW?

Zorachus99, I'm not saying that Azerbaijan, Georgia, Armenia and the Chinese provinces should be minor countries, I'm just saying that it would be fun, pretty and give a welcomed historical feel to the game, to have them drawn on the map.
Drawn only, without any play impact. No new city, no new capital city, no new minor power, no new Austria or Czechoslovakia.


The idea may have some merit. I suppose it's a 'like to have' kind of thing, rather than a neccesity.



Zorachus99 -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (7/2/2006 6:59:55 PM)

You last response Shannon made me laugh for five minutes, the emoticon just killed me. I was wondering if anyone was going to get the obscure joke, and of course the mangled metaphors.

Anyway if you want to know the source of the joke here it is, funny and not nearly as vomitorious as mine. [8|]

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-869183917758574879




Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (7/2/2006 7:27:46 PM)

quote:

The idea may have some merit. I suppose it's a 'like to have' kind of thing, rather than a neccesity.

Exactly.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (8/3/2006 8:55:07 PM)

Here is the Caucasus, western Persia, Iraq, Eastern Turkey as they appear now on the MWiF map.
The coastlines shown here are not the final ones, the lakes drawn neither, but they should look something like that.


[image]local://upfiles/10447/52ED9CC992C945D58B707A9CE3A96048.jpg[/image]



brian brian -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/25/2010 5:04:58 PM)

so after thinking about the map/balance thread I've been playing with my hand-made CWIF map of China again and various powers that be have their eyes set on Persia. Is the well-done map segment above the final version? I know it's from before the final step of making it all pretty on the coastlines and rivers and such, but are all those hexsides correct?



Skanvak -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/25/2010 6:20:36 PM)

Froonp, from a quick look at you maps around baku,I have a great feeling that it is Baku that is not at the correct place and should be north ward. On the original WiF:FE map, Baku are roughtly on the same hex line as Tiflis. Be careful too to the N/S axis that might be different between your reference map and the Wif:FE map.


"I agree, and I also saw this, but I firmly believe that the European portion of the map must not be changed.
I think that the Tiflis area was wrongly drawn for the European map, to be able to enter in the surface of the map, because it was important that the Caucasus area was on the map."
I strongly believe that this kind of arrangement with the geography should be corrected as much as possible. Because the Caucasus area will be on the map. So we don't need to keep distortion of that kind. At least, I would not like it.



Skanvak -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/25/2010 6:35:40 PM)

I have look at your political map above and to my red star rising map. On both Sukumi, Tiflis and Baku are on the same line. When I compare RSR and WiF, the sokumi/Tiflis position are correct, this his all the caspian sea which are way too far south (about 3 hexes).

For example the bulge near the sea box should be north of sokumi, not south of tiflis.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/25/2010 7:17:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

so after thinking about the map/balance thread I've been playing with my hand-made CWIF map of China again and various powers that be have their eyes set on Persia. Is the well-done map segment above the final version? I know it's from before the final step of making it all pretty on the coastlines and rivers and such, but are all those hexsides correct?

It looks like that now.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/F22C55CFEFF2444A8314C8749752C2E4.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/25/2010 7:40:03 PM)

Here are 3 screen shots of the area being discussed at a higher zoom level (5 instead of 2).

[image]local://upfiles/16701/B031E33C75E54D72976F05B14FCDFF36.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/25/2010 7:41:13 PM)

2nd in a series of 3. This is farther south from the screen shot immediately above.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/FA886F2ACA9B46DC9344D713D2127066.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/25/2010 7:42:18 PM)

3rd and last in the series. This is the southern-most in this series.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/3BB16FD48BEA4055A7A9D1767EA04638.jpg[/image]



brian brian -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/25/2010 8:47:41 PM)

Thanks guys! The drive-thru lane is quick today!

I'm not wanting to open any map discussions really, just having fun with some stuff I made on paper with CWIF, something I never moved to a different machine during a PC migration and don't have any more.



Skanvak -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/26/2010 8:49:31 AM)

What do you think of moving Baku (the Whole Caspian actually) 3 hex to the north? It will be true to both Wif:FE and the real Geography.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/26/2010 9:49:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

What do you think of moving Baku (the Whole Caspian actually) 3 hex to the north? It will be true to both Wif:FE and the real Geography.

I agree that the area is not 100% faithfull to real geography... but....

This would be a major task to be done.
Half a dozen CSV files are used to edit the map : Names file, hexes file, hexsides file, coastal hexsides file to name the main ones.
In each of those files, there are tens, maybe hundreds of edits to be done.
Then, the rivers, lakes and coastlines have to be regenerated by Steve.

The very first task to complete before even deciding if we want to do that, is to have a redraw of the area, on paper, superposing the present drawing, and the desired drawing. I'll look at what can be done here.

This sketch drawing will show if there are more things to move, once the Caspian have been moved 3 hexes to the north (By the way : Is this sure that this is 3 hexes ? Isn't it 2, or 4 ?).

For example, with Caspian 3 hexes to the north, what happens to Persia ? Is it 3 more hexes taller, or do we need to move the Persian Gulf too ? What happens to Afghanistan, to Turkmenistan, and area around ?



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/26/2010 12:55:30 PM)

Here is a zoom 1 view of the lands around the Caspian.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/AD30EA3B7F4F45E9B59C93BB54A7AB47.jpg[/image]



Skanvak -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/26/2010 4:00:08 PM)

First every thing on the Euorpean map seem ok. North and east of Capian, are mostly patch of terrain. It is safe to consider that we won't modified the area with forest (north of the desert). We need to move the Aral sea area too, as it is north of grozny :( but then we will not modified hex more than 2 or 3 hex est of Aral.

For Persia, only north need to be modified, but this area is more sensitive, so we will have to discuss a lot.

As for 3 hex, it is a rought guess (a close one though as it is 3 or 4, definetly not 2).

Froonp, I agree before even touching the code we need to redraw the map by hands (and I am on a one month vacation in a far away country. Will happen to be near Paris soon or in august)? I hope we will be dare to put on this task of moving two sea. A feat of gods :D

Really I think we must do it as Baku is a really important part of Russia (in RSR it is an instant victory for this axis).



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/26/2010 5:00:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

First every thing on the Euorpean map seem ok. North and east of Capian, are mostly patch of terrain. It is safe to consider that we won't modified the area with forest (north of the desert). We need to move the Aral sea area too, as it is north of grozny :( but then we will not modified hex more than 2 or 3 hex est of Aral.

For Persia, only north need to be modified, but this area is more sensitive, so we will have to discuss a lot.

As for 3 hex, it is a rought guess (a close one though as it is 3 or 4, definetly not 2).

Froonp, I agree before even touching the code we need to redraw the map by hands (and I am on a one month vacation in a far away country. Will happen to be near Paris soon or in august)? I hope we will be dare to put on this task of moving two sea. A feat of gods :D

Really I think we must do it as Baku is a really important part of Russia (in RSR it is an instant victory for this axis).

I am not so sure about all this needing to be done. Here is a map of the Caspian I found on the web. Note the latitude and longitude lines. And the northern portion of the Black Sea, Caspian Sea, and Aral Sea.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/C31B76DBA67C420099C4A26243D38823.gif[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/26/2010 5:11:08 PM)

Here is what MWIF looks like. I have included the top of the 3 seas.

It looks like a 2 hex shift might be in order. However, Tiflis loks to be too far north too, which might make Baku looks even farther south than it is.

---

I don't want to change any of this at this time. So it is just for discussion purposes.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/A52DC98358244588AF41274CF61FDC2E.jpg[/image]



Skanvak -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/26/2010 6:32:54 PM)

Steve,

Your map is not a mercator projection. Beside, it confirms a 3 hexes differences. The top of the Caspian should be north of the latitude of the sea of Azov not far south, same goes for the Aral sea, that is not correct, but less important.

The point, I feel strongly, if that this 3 hexes distortion around Baku results in a great distortion for a strategic objectif of the war. Baku is 50% farther from Tiflis than it should. And it looks awfully wrong, as we are waiting for this game,don't let this sort of thing spoil the quality of the product.

Froonp, peux tu me confirmer (ou pas) que les lignes d'hex à Wif correspondent aux latitudes?



BallyJ -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/26/2010 11:05:52 PM)

I thought that right or wrong the map was DONE.
We seem to keep going off at tangents.
Again I say "focus on finishing the game"
Then do the refinments.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Caucasus Map portion (6/26/2010 11:08:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak
Your map is not a mercator projection. Beside, it confirms a 3 hexes differences. The top of the Caspian should be north of the latitude of the sea of Azov not far south, same goes for the Aral sea, that is not correct, but less important.

The point, I feel strongly, if that this 3 hexes distortion around Baku results in a great distortion for a strategic objectif of the war. Baku is 50% farther from Tiflis than it should. And it looks awfully wrong, as we are waiting for this game,don't let this sort of thing spoil the quality of the product.

My opinion is that whatever, it is not a big deal.
I share Steve's opinion, that it is OK to discuss, but 95% decided that we won't change it.
Changing Scandinavia in the same level of magnitude that you propose to change the Caspian was a huge work, and I don't think that we want to dive into that again.
The map have reached some sort of equilibrium, and we must be careful in changing things that much, as there will be people who will prove you were wrong in changing that, pointing at an area you changed as a consequence of the main change.

quote:

Froonp, peux tu me confirmer (ou pas) que les lignes d'hex à Wif correspondent aux latitudes?

The hexrows can be seen as latitude lines, but not all over the MWiF map. there are lots of places where there are shifs of some hexes north or south, Scandinavia being one of the main places.

What is important is that the tactical layout of the map is correct, and that the strategical layout is about correct. Even if we have that distortion around the Caspian, it is globaly correct.



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