Bagration Questions (Full Version)

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RooseBolton -> Bagration Questions (7/5/2006 7:38:46 AM)


Hi,

First off as a new player to TOAW, I'm enjoying the game emensely. Now that being said...after playing Bagartion I would comment...wtf. After a boring WWI-esque crawling my way towards Germany I was barely able to get a victory. Who designed the German OoB...those units are incredibly powerful. First I'll get over the fact there were two 8th and 14th Panzer Division (each in different armies). The SS Polize Panzer Division came as quite a shock (since I never came across one before). And volksgrenadier divisions as good strength and quality as rested Russian Guard Corps were equally distressing (or impressive if one was German) But the late war (early '45) named panzer divisions are monster...these units were created out of the scraps of destroyed division not powerful units in their own rights. From everything I've ever read ehe Eastern front was scraping the bottom of the barrel to find troops, since the West got priority. In this scenario they have a incredible and formidable army with which to stop the Russan forces.

Also I don't know if the initative is preset by scenario design or random...but if designed (and I suspect so after running 6 two turn games) giving the Germans a double move is terrible. How does that represent the strategic suprise of Bagration (well at least its location away). Any initial breakthroughs can be contained by two straight turns of movement.

Perhaps after a few more weeks of pratice i'll have the game down pat and make short work of OKW, but at first glance this seems rather unhistorical.

Steve

P.S. I in no way wish to be rude to the hard work any designer put into this creation but there are some issues that made me ask these questions.



Uncle_Joe -> RE: Bagration Questions (7/5/2006 8:26:10 AM)

I dont know anything about that scenario, but the initiative thing is simply part of the game against the PO. Only the first turn is 'scripted' for the initiative. I found it very annoying in the scenario I was working on as well. The solution? Start the game as Hotseat and then put the Germans on PO control manually. Thats worked fine for me to stop the double turns which can incredibly muck up a scenario.

Hope it helps.



Industrial -> RE: Bagration Questions (7/5/2006 9:20:30 AM)

BERLIN - Götterdämmerung im Osten is the best East Front 1944-45 scenario I know, so far not converted to TOAW III but you should still be able to play it, but there could be some event errors from the conversion, and I dont know whether th scenario plays good vs the PO.

But it's OOB and TO&E is top-notch!



a white rabbit -> RE: Bagration Questions (7/5/2006 4:56:56 PM)

..i'm trying the Germans vs Russian Elmerski, and getting slaughtered, an intersting and novel experience..



RooseBolton -> RE: Bagration Questions (7/5/2006 5:58:50 PM)


Well I've discovered a few things.....one depending on the Russian's success of turn one they can negate a double german turn, so the problem wasnt the scenario but my crappy leadership. Plus after some learning/experimenting I've gotten better at the art of envelopment making the german's life much harder...so again maybe my playing was overshadowing my judgement.i can admit i may have been too harsh in my earlier post...we will see.



golden delicious -> RE: Bagration Questions (7/5/2006 6:54:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RooseBolton

Well I've discovered a few things.....one depending on the Russian's success of turn one they can negate a double german turn, so the problem wasnt the scenario but my crappy leadership.


The variable initiative depends on how much motorised transport the two sides have. So you couldn't really have predicted this.

quote:

i can admit i may have been too harsh in my earlier post...we will see.


If the designer's duplicated major units, that would be a warning light. Don't be afraid to criticise scenario design.



Okimaw -> RE: Bagration Questions (7/5/2006 8:48:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Industrial

BERLIN - Götterdämmerung im Osten is the best East Front 1944-45 scenario I know, so far not converted to TOAW III but you should still be able to play it, but there could be some event errors from the conversion, and I dont know whether th scenario plays good vs the PO.

But it's OOB and TO&E is top-notch!

Right now I'm playing a converted Decision in the North with Larry with no troubles. So far I've converted DNO, Braunschweig, Dnieper 2.0 and now GIO. I don't know how they work as I haven't tried them yet. Anyone wants to take a test drive let me know



alaric99x -> RE: Bagration Questions (7/6/2006 12:12:22 AM)

What version of DNO do you have?  I have 3.7, but I've heard about 3.8, is this just a rumor.  This scenario is a true classic.



Okimaw -> RE: Bagration Questions (7/6/2006 12:15:01 AM)

I have the 3.7, I've heard the 3.8 thingy too but haven't come across it yet



r6kunz -> RE: Bagration Questions (7/8/2006 4:24:33 AM)

Stay tuned: I plan to post The Destruction of Army Group Center that focuses on on the AGC portion of Bagration covering the period 22 June to 1 August 1944, with 10 km, full-day turns with division sized-German units attacked by soviet corps-sized units.  The sceanrio was inspired by the SPI board agme of the same name, but updated with the inforrmation in the book Hitler's Greatest Defeat: The Collapse of Army Group Centre, June 1944 by Paul Adair (1994).  It has been on the back burner for a while, but with the new TOAW III...

Rob Kunz




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