RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands

RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (Full Version)

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sajbalk -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/6/2006 11:02:21 PM)
The changes are certainly acceptable. I was just thinking about all those US subs basing there without fear of being overrun in a surprise invasion. Thanks for all your excellent work on the project. I shall submit my map input when you get to N.America.

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/6/2006 11:07:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sajbalk The changes are certainly acceptable. I was just thinking about all those US subs basing there without fear of being overrun in a surprise invasion. Thanks for all your excellent work on the project. I shall submit my map input when you get to N.America. You're input will be warmly welcomed, as North America will come sometime in the future. I'm eager to see how wrong the great lakes are, because I was told they were.

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/7/2006 10:48:00 PM)
Talking about places that rarely see combat, here are the Fiji, Samoa, Phoenix, Tonga, Ellice Islands, who are just east of the Solomon and the Gilbert. [image]local://upfiles/10447/B5A39D69AB6840169F458003ED7F6326.jpg[/image]

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/7/2006 10:49:51 PM)
Here's how it looks in WiF FE, at the Pacific Scale. [image]local://upfiles/10447/6C5CCDD151FF4FE1B1A935C8906748AB.jpg[/image]

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/7/2006 10:54:29 PM)
To the east of these, there are the Line & Cook Islands. Except for SUBs action, I fear none of these island will see the smallest gun. They don't know how happy they are. [image]local://upfiles/10447/D5A5AACE37844C1BB6E045B9EABD4227.jpg[/image]

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/7/2006 10:56:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp Talking about places that rarely see combat, here are the Fiji, Samoa, Phoenix, Tonga, Ellice Islands, who are just east of the Solomon and the Gilbert. [image]local://upfiles/10447/B5A39D69AB6840169F458003ED7F6326.jpg[/image] How about straightening out some of these sea area boundaries? What I have in mind is moving the boundary from Baker --> Rotuma one hex to the NorthWest along its entire length (still going through Tumiloto), and moving the boundary from Rotuma to V. Levu northwards so that the three all sea hexes in the middle of the boundary are no longer in the Polynesia sea area.

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/7/2006 10:56:51 PM)
Here's the same place in WiF FE at the pacific scale. This is really the edge of the paper map. [image]local://upfiles/10447/86F58D7C4E154818A62E0287F6F84305.jpg[/image]

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/7/2006 11:00:53 PM)
Here are the French Polynesia archipelago next, east of the previous islands. East of this, there is only water for hundred miles, and then south America. Even SUBs rarely appear here. The only units that are likely to come here are Convoys on CW and US Convoy lines. [image]local://upfiles/10447/E1FDD088EA474DCE99B04BD2014985A3.jpg[/image]

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/7/2006 11:03:31 PM)
And now, the same area on the WiF FE maps. Here we are on the American in Flames maps, that can be used in regular WiF FE campaigns. This is far better than the simple America Minimap. MWiF is even better [:D]. [image]local://upfiles/10447/078467198BE741E5ABB608CAEC6F12E3.jpg[/image]

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/7/2006 11:11:04 PM)
quote: How about straightening out some of these sea area boundaries? What I have in mind is moving the boundary from Baker --> Rotuma one hex to the NorthWest along its entire length (still going through Tumiloto), and moving the boundary from Rotuma to V. Levu northwards so that the three all sea hexes in the middle of the boundary are no longer in the Polynesia sea area. Good idea. I looked at the big picture, and moving those sea area borders do not seem to have secondary effects.

lomyrin -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/8/2006 12:21:14 AM)
Many of these Islands are very useful for staging aircraft on successive rebases from the USA to the Pacific fronts and from Japan to the Pacific fronts respectively. That has been my experience with CWiF play in the same scale. With that in mind those Island that are on the Sea boundaries are very good as air bases. Lars

Zorachus99 -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/8/2006 8:16:36 AM)
The change of Pago Page from clear to mountain terrain is pretty major... What caused the change?

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/8/2006 8:54:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zorachus99 The change of Pago Page from clear to mountain terrain�is pretty major... What caused the change? It was jungle, but good catch, I did not pay attention to it. Well, by looking at Google Earth, it seems that this island can be either Mountain, as it is mostly mountainous, or something more flat, maybe jungle. I don't think the terrain of Pago Pago is really relevant, I nealy never saw it under fire. Once, but it was out of supplied and unoccupied, so being mountain or jungle would have been the same, it was worth 0 combat factors. Once also I saw the Japanese navy blockading an US Navy who fled here after the loss of Pearl Harbor, but with no invasion threat.

Zorachus99 -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/8/2006 9:18:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: Zorachus99 The change of Pago Page from clear to mountain terrain�is pretty major... What caused the change? It was jungle, but good catch, I did not pay attention to it. Well, by looking at Google Earth, it seems that this island can be either Mountain, as it is mostly mountainous, or something more flat, maybe jungle. I don't think the terrain of Pago Pago is really relevant, I nealy never saw it under fire. Once, but it was out of supplied and unoccupied, so being mountain or jungle would have been the same, it was worth 0 combat factors. Once also I saw the Japanese navy blockading an US Navy who fled here after the loss of Pearl Harbor, but with no invasion threat. I agree the invasion threat is pretty minor, but I've eyed it more than once as Japanese, and threatened it by forcing a garrison in the past. The value of the base to the allies is decent. It is useful for rebasing ships to protect convoy lines, as well as being a useful midpoint between Hawaii, Australia, and New Guinea. Never seen it invaded though.

lomyrin -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/8/2006 6:28:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: Zorachus99 The change of Pago Page from clear to mountain terrain�is pretty major... What caused the change? It was jungle, but good catch, I did not pay attention to it. Well, by looking at Google Earth, it seems that this island can be either Mountain, as it is mostly mountainous, or something more flat, maybe jungle. I don't think the terrain of Pago Pago is really relevant, I nealy never saw it under fire. Once, but it was out of supplied and unoccupied, so being mountain or jungle would have been the same, it was worth 0 combat factors. Once also I saw the Japanese navy blockading an US Navy who fled here after the loss of Pearl Harbor, but with no invasion threat. I have seen Pago Pago invaded by Japan several times in CWiF play. Since MWiF is in the same scale it could become important. Lars

mlees -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/8/2006 6:57:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: How about straightening out some of these sea area boundaries? What I have in mind is moving the boundary from Baker --> Rotuma one hex to the NorthWest along its entire length (still going through Tumiloto), and moving the boundary from Rotuma to V. Levu northwards so that the three all sea hexes in the middle of the boundary are no longer in the Polynesia sea area. Good idea. I looked at the big picture, and moving those sea area borders do not seem to have secondary effects. The difference that I can see is that an air unit based in Nukufetau would have its traveling distance to the Polynesia Sea Zone reduced by one. Not that I expect this to be a game maker/breaker... [:'(] quote: Here are the French Polynesia archipelago next... The only units that are likely to come here are Convoys on CW and US Convoy lines. I like to try to get as many French naval units to Tahiti as is feasable before the fall of France, so that my Free French fleet is buffed as much as possible. Am i doing it the hard way?

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/8/2006 8:08:18 PM)
quote: I like to try to get as many French naval units to Tahiti as is feasable before the fall of France, so that my Free French fleet is buffed as much as possible. Am i doing it the hard way? Well Tahiti is far from France, I wonder how many turns are needed to send the 2-movers to Tahiti. If it is too long, this means that those units have to leave France soon, so they won't be used against Italy, so for me it is the hard way. Anyway, it is a good thing for units quick enough.

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/8/2006 8:11:19 PM)
quote: I have seen Pago Pago invaded by Japan several times in CWiF play. Since MWiF is in the same scale it could become important. First thing, an US player worth his name, would always have some kind of land unit in Pago Pago, denying the auto invasion that the Japanese could mount on the opening turn of the Pacific War. Second thing, Pago Pago was also a mountain hex in CWiF, the map was not changed in between. In fact I was wondering what point you wanted to make lomyrin, whether having Pago Pago be a Mountain be good, or bad, or not that much important.

lomyrin -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/8/2006 8:30:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: I have seen Pago Pago invaded by Japan several times in CWiF play. Since MWiF is in the same scale it could become important. First thing, an US player worth his name, would always have some kind of land unit in Pago Pago, denying the auto invasion that the Japanese could mount on the opening turn of the Pacific War. Second thing, Pago Pago was also a mountain hex in CWiF, the map was not changed in between. In fact I was wondering what point you wanted to make lomyrin, whether having Pago Pago be a Mountain be good, or bad, or not that much important. Not that important, mountain is fine with me. Indeed, most US players would garrison Pago Pago, but things sometimes change priorities. Lars

wfzimmerman -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/8/2006 8:35:31 PM)
It seems to me that the terrain justifies mountain on the theory that if the island ever saw combat the volcanic mountains would be heavily defended a la Iwo Jima.

rtamesis -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (9/10/2006 11:00:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp Looking at both maps I just posted, I think that Mindoro is too large now [:D]. Here is my last try at improving the various inner islands. What do you think ? [image]local://upfiles/10447/1786B6AD98744A4C8B3E92F1AC0DF826.jpg[/image] I think you did a great job![&o]

marcuswatney -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (2/7/2008 8:12:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SurrenderMonkey Definitely to many usable islands between Hawaii and Midway, IMHO. Take a look at the WitP map - I think the only usable piece of ground is French Frigate Shoals, and it is extremely marginal at best. Johnston Island is due west, and much more viable. What's that west of Midway, between Midway and Wake? I'd like to ask if anything has been done to eliminate from play islands too small to host an airstrip, a concern first raised in 2006 (Post 9)? War in the Pacific makes the distinction between islands and atolls, and at this new detailed scale I think MWiF should too. The problem with putting in extra islands and atolls is that each new one reduces the imperative of capturing focus-hexes like Midway. The reason Midway was important was that it was the only airstrip in air range of Hawaii. This doesn't seem to be the case any more. SurrenderMonkey mentioned French Frigate Shoals. Their sole involvement in the war was during the Midway operation when a Japanese submarine carrying avgas was tasked to rendez-vous there with two Emilies, and refuel them for a reconnaisaance of Pearl Harbor. The task was aborted when the submarine found there was an American seaplane tender there. French Frigate Shoals is just a reef whose 'platform' is submerged a hundred feet. There is a rock sticking out of the water and that is about it. Millitarily it is totally useless so shouldn't appear on the map in any functional role. I reckon the other 'islands' between Midway and the Hawaiian Islands are even less significant. The smallest island of military significance (defined as being large enough for an airstrip) is Wake. Mayfair Games published a delightful little game on the two invasions of triangular Wake, where the airstrip took up the whole of one side of the triangle, the other two being arms only a few yards wide. It is the only game I have played where PanAm staff get stuck into the fight!

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (2/7/2008 8:27:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marcuswatney quote: ORIGINAL: SurrenderMonkey Definitely to many usable islands between Hawaii and Midway, IMHO. Take a look at the WitP map - I think the only usable piece of ground is French Frigate Shoals, and it is extremely marginal at best. Johnston Island is due west, and much more viable. What's that west of Midway, between Midway and Wake? I'd like to ask if anything has been done to eliminate from play islands too small to host an airstrip, a concern first raised in 2006 (Post 9)? War in the Pacific makes the distinction between islands and atolls, and at this new detailed scale I think MWiF should too. The problem with putting in extra islands and atolls is that each new one reduces the imperative of capturing focus-hexes like Midway. The reason Midway was important was that it was the only airstrip in air range of Hawaii. This doesn't seem to be the case any more. SurrenderMonkey mentioned French Frigate Shoals. Their sole involvement in the war was during the Midway operation when a Japanese submarine carrying avgas was tasked to rendez-vous there with two Emilies, and refuel them for a reconnaisaance of Pearl Harbor. The task was aborted when the submarine found there was an American seaplane tender there. French Frigate Shoals is just a reef whose 'platform' is submerged a hundred feet. There is a rock sticking out of the water and that is about it. Millitarily it is totally useless so shouldn't appear on the map in any functional role. I reckon the other 'islands' between Midway and the Hawaiian Islands are even less significant. The smallest island of military significance (defined as being large enough for an airstrip) is Wake. Mayfair Games published a delightful little game on the two invasions of triangular Wake, where the airstrip took up the whole of one side of the triangle, the other two being arms only a few yards wide. It is the only game I have played where PanAm staff get stuck into the fight! Good point. The quick and dirty way to do this is to make them mountain terrain, since air units can not base in mountains. I guess we could add a new terrain type to cover this, but that would be a lot of work.

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (2/7/2008 9:02:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marcuswatney quote: ORIGINAL: SurrenderMonkey Definitely to many usable islands between Hawaii and Midway, IMHO. Take a look at the WitP map - I think the only usable piece of ground is French Frigate Shoals, and it is extremely marginal at best. Johnston Island is due west, and much more viable. What's that west of Midway, between Midway and Wake? I'd like to ask if anything has been done to eliminate from play islands too small to host an airstrip, a concern first raised in 2006 (Post 9)? War in the Pacific makes the distinction between islands and atolls, and at this new detailed scale I think MWiF should too. The problem with putting in extra islands and atolls is that each new one reduces the imperative of capturing focus-hexes like Midway. The reason Midway was important was that it was the only airstrip in air range of Hawaii. This doesn't seem to be the case any more. SurrenderMonkey mentioned French Frigate Shoals. Their sole involvement in the war was during the Midway operation when a Japanese submarine carrying avgas was tasked to rendez-vous there with two Emilies, and refuel them for a reconnaisaance of Pearl Harbor. The task was aborted when the submarine found there was an American seaplane tender there. French Frigate Shoals is just a reef whose 'platform' is submerged a hundred feet. There is a rock sticking out of the water and that is about it. Millitarily it is totally useless so shouldn't appear on the map in any functional role. I reckon the other 'islands' between Midway and the Hawaiian Islands are even less significant. The smallest island of military significance (defined as being large enough for an airstrip) is Wake. Mayfair Games published a delightful little game on the two invasions of triangular Wake, where the airstrip took up the whole of one side of the triangle, the other two being arms only a few yards wide. It is the only game I have played where PanAm staff get stuck into the fight! I don't think that this is a problem. The important places of the Pacific War are still important because they sit on multiple sea area. This is what makes them important in WiF. Midway in WiF is much more important that any other island in the Hawaiian chain, except for Ohau, because it has a port which allows for a base stacking of 2 air units, and because it is put in supply from the adjacent sea area. The other islands in the chain needs their owner to put them in supply through the Hawaiian island sea area. You see what I mean ? That there are more possible bases in the Hawaiian chain is not a problem either, there are aready too much on the WiF FE map, there is no restrain. This said, I would love if we had an "Atoll" terrain type in the game. It would only allow to stack 1 seaplane, and nothing else (no land unit, no ships).

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (2/7/2008 9:05:00 PM)
quote: The quick and dirty way to do this is to make them mountain terrain, since air units can not base in mountains. I guess we could add a new terrain type to cover this, but that would be a lot of work. This was already done in some key island chains, such as the Bonin and the Marianas, where we nearly have the same number of possible places to base planes. This said, I would love if we had an "Atoll" terrain type in the game. It would only allow to stack 1 seaplane, and nothing else (no land unit, no ships). I already said that ? [:D] Really ? The only work it would need would be : - Make the Graphic artist draw something recognisable, especially noting that only a small portion of that drawing will be shown, as 95% of the hex will be covered with water. - Change the map data and transform some islands in Atoll. This I can do easily and gladly [:D].

composer99 -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (2/7/2008 10:04:23 PM)
Midway is about 25 hexes away from Honolulu, meaning it is too far (in WiF) for pretty well every land-based plane that is likely to see action in that area (I just checked the posted map on page 1 and counted hexes [:)]).

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (2/7/2008 10:26:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: composer99 Midway is about 25 hexes away from Honolulu, meaning it is�too far�(in WiF)�for pretty well every land-based plane that is likely to see action in that area (I just checked the posted map on page 1 and counted hexes [:)]). You know as well as I know that what Midway brings is : one foot in the Hawaiian sea area. This foot through projected LBA air power and naval bases for SUBs. Range to Honolulu is not the most important point, and I bet this was the same in WWII. Midway was a steping stone to threaten Honolulu, not simply to bombard it. This said, Midway-Honolulu are 2,112 km far away, which means 25 hexes that are 84,48 km long. Pretty much consistent with the rest of the map as far as the scale is.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (2/8/2008 12:21:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: The quick and dirty way to do this is to make them mountain terrain, since air units can not base in mountains. I guess we could add a new terrain type to cover this, but that would be a lot of work. This was already done in some key island chains, such as the Bonin and the Marianas, where we nearly have the same number of possible places to base planes. This said, I would love if we had an "Atoll" terrain type in the game. It would only allow to stack 1 seaplane, and nothing else (no land unit, no ships). I already said that ? [:D] Really ? The only work it would need would be : - Make the Graphic artist draw something recognisable, especially noting that only a small portion of that drawing will be shown, as 95% of the hex will be covered with water. - Change the map data and transform some islands in Atoll. This I can do easily and gladly [:D]. There are more than a few rules that check terrain type.[;)] Every line of code that references terrain type would have to address the new type, if only to ignore it. That's a lot of code.

marcuswatney -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (2/8/2008 12:23:18 AM)
quote: This said, I would love if we had an "Atoll" terrain type in the game. It would only allow to stack 1 seaplane, and nothing else (no land unit, no ships). I would very much support this idea if somebody was willing to do the work. I especially like terrain rules that 'reward' the purchase of special units like seaplanes, as it gives the player some reason to invest in them. The way WitP depicted atolls was to have one or more tiny irregular circles for the atoll itself, set in a slightly brown disc filling most of the hex. I don't think the disc was supposed to represent anything, but merely to draw the eye to it saying, "yeah, that's not a crumb from your bagel". My copy of WitP is packed away somewhere in my roof-space, but if someone is willing to do the code-conversion work, I would be happy to try and find WitP and pass on the names of the atolls they identified.

Froonp -> RE: MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands (2/8/2008 12:27:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marcuswatney My copy of WitP is packed away somewhere in my roof-space, but if someone is willing to do the code-conversion work, I would be happy to try and find WitP and pass on the names of the atolls they identified. Is it this map that you talk about ? Or is your WitP another game ? [image]local://upfiles/10447/2784F283627842CD956AAEB63D20D169.jpg[/image]

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