Interface Wish List (Full Version)

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ralphtricky -> Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 12:41:13 AM)

The next release is going to be focusing on the interface. I've got a couple of major things planned, and probably some minor ones. I'm looking for suggestions that I may not have thought of. I'm looking for minor things that I can do quickly that will help people.

Things that I'm thinking about...
NOTE: Just because I'm looking into them, doesn't mean that they'll happen.
Windows fonts. This may open up translation to the non-European languages like Russian and Serbo-Croation. It definitely opens up being able to scale the interface sometime down the road for those of us that have problems seeing thengs because they just don't make displays like they used to.[:-] It also allows for the use of Color in some screens. I don't know if I can get the windows fonts to look good enough, though.

Scaling of the 'big' map, both bigger and smaller.

2D counters on the 3D map.

Things that I'm not looking at.
Unicode
Complete graphics rewrite for larger screens, moving the screens out of the way, etc.




rhinobones -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 12:58:55 AM)

How about making the Deploy and Orders menus cascade off each other? Would be real nice to be able to make both selections with one mouse movement.

Regards, RhinoBones




Industrial -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 1:06:44 AM)

pop-up fullsize window of the small overview map (the one in the bottom right corner).

jump to next unit with movement points left and not engaged in combat, with an ability to 'skip' a unit and TOAW remembering that, not selecting that unit again in a new cycle.

The formation-highlight should have a different color representing the cooperation of the formation, maybe just recolor the upper part of the hexagon, to reflect free, force, army or internal support.

a scrollbar in the turn-replay which lets us fast forward/backward to a specific point in the replay, especially usefull for these 10.000+ turn replay scenarios

a hotkey to highlight airfields/roads/railroads/ports etc, maybe play a small animation to make finding them easier

an option to disable the mousepointer-jump-to-dialoge when a new dialog popps up, sometimes pretty irritating

menue option to set the window-scroll speed to fast/faster/really fast etc

option to automatically dig-in all units with movement points left





JAMiAM -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 1:12:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Industrial

option to automatically dig-in all units with movement points left



We had this early in development, but dropped it, since it was too easy to choose it by mistake and then be unable to undo it, since you may have already moved on and selected another action. If we were to try to restore this function, we would need to make sure that we had some warnings incorporated, ensuring that it wasn't chosen by accident.




JAMiAM -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 1:13:19 AM)

Currently the HQ button toggles HQ's and Artillery to be on the top of stacks. Maybe we can put another toggle point in there and cycle through HQ>Artillery>Engineering? That way, we can find our engineering units more easily.




Industrial -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 1:25:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM


quote:

ORIGINAL: Industrial

option to automatically dig-in all units with movement points left



We had this early in development, but dropped it, since it was too easy to choose it by mistake and then be unable to undo it, since you may have already moved on and selected another action. If we were to try to restore this function, we would need to make sure that we had some warnings incorporated, ensuring that it wasn't chosen by accident.


Make it only available from the top-menue, you usually dont select anything from there during playing your turn, so it would be pretty safe. Maybe put it into the Play menu?




Legun -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 5:05:36 AM)

I hope that the discussion doesn't end before I've seen TOAW3 :)
Anyway, I would like to see some options I don't expect in TOAW3:
- a way to show range of selected unit fire (art, air) or supply enhancement (supply unit) on the map
- an option showing orders (loss settings) in a formation window instead of "location"
- a second OOB window showing orders and postion (defending, etc) instead of formation and location
- OOB window(s) sortable by units types and army (counter colour)
- the support sub-window in "plans for attack" window divided to "support" and "potential support" (all artillery and air unit in range, but with unsupporting status (mobile, rest)

be continued..

I want to start such discussion on realted TDG sub-forum:
http://www.tdg.nu/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=TOAW3




Legun -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 5:14:39 AM)

- a list of objectives with value and possesion
- a description of VP conditions (events) in separated txt file, shown by a hotkey 
- house rules in separated txt file, shown by a hotkey




Silvanski -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 7:43:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Currently the HQ button toggles HQ's and Artillery to be on the top of stacks. Maybe we can put another toggle point in there and cycle through HQ>Artillery>Engineering? That way, we can find our engineering units more easily.



Excellent idea ! I spend so much time looking for my rail repair units [X(]




larryfulkerson -> Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 7:46:42 AM)

[img]http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4042/interfacewishlistitem7mu.gif[/img]




ralphtricky -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 8:04:57 AM)

Larry,
Did you knwo that the + and - keys work on most screens now?[:'(]

Ralph




a white rabbit -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 9:26:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

Currently the HQ button toggles HQ's and Artillery to be on the top of stacks. Maybe we can put another toggle point in there and cycle through HQ>Artillery>Engineering? That way, we can find our engineering units more easily.



..and bridging units, and supply units, all the attached occasional use stuff

..oh, and bringing to the top all of a given formation including all sub-divided units




larryfulkerson -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 9:49:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
Larry,
Did you knwo that the + and - keys work on most screens now?[:'(]
Ralph


Yeah, but to use the + and - keys I gotta take my hand off the mouse and carry it all the way over to the keyboard. Takes at least 1/2 second and I ain't got that kinda time sometimes. You understand, I'm sure.




KarlXII -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 9:57:14 AM)

My suggestions to improving the UI are:

- Be able to see total attack & defense strenght on a stack. Now it is hard to judge how strong your stacks are against enemy stacks if you have a long line of defense. It could be toggled with a key or something and like floating numbers or something ?

- Show the Supply Points along the whole line of communication back to the supply source so you easily can see your line of supply and that you have one.

- Perhaps another color on units which are unsupplied ? or a mark on them ?





dobeln -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 12:46:34 PM)

First off - thanks for keeping development going. Have been having a blast against the AI(!) in several scenarios (Playing the Ottomans in the Balkan 1912 scenario is a big challenge ;) ), and PBEM is as good as ever.

My interface suggestions:

Stack composition window:
(repeat of my old suggestion, but hey...)

- Shrink the "remaining impulses" element (the star circle) in the sidebar and instead put the "stack composition" view right below the "unit information" window in the sidebar.

OR

- Make it optional to switch the "unit information" window for the "stack composition" window.

Rationale: Would help the monster scenarios a lot, and even the smaller ones. (Pressing "C" over every stack gets old fast.)

Dig in all units with remaining movement
Big timesaver - just make it a top menu item with a "confirm" window. (As discussed earlier in the thread) Alternatively, just make all units that do not have reserve orders dig in at turn end. (optional, of course)

Will try to think of more things, but that's the two first items on my list.




hank -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 4:17:56 PM)

my $0.02

- already being looked at:  be able to change fonts

- add slider bars to any text box that typically has a long document to view like the sce description

- make pop-up windows movable (especially the group composition box and the battle report box)

- one of my biggest suggestions because of all the text and numbers a player has to read through to get an idea of how his battle    and units are doing:::::
- EITHER: 1-add "status bars" to the "Situational Briefing" window to help depict the status of your forces without having to calculate  what the numbers mean. (i.e., if force proficiency is 60% show a bar 60% shaded ... that's an easy one; supply status is a good one ... what does 25% mean? if its 25% of the total capacity a bar shaded 25% would help; rail capacity; airlift capacity; etc.)  There's only a few pieces of information that this would help with mainly in the Situational Briefing window.
OR: re-align the text so the colons or numbers are lined up vertically and easy for you eyes to track down through the numbers to quickly see how every thing is progressing (or digressing)
The same goes for the Unit Box's Strengths and Special Abilities windows; either status bars or realign the text so the colons are vertical (center justified text is OK for titles but for data left justified or "colon" justified is easier for eyes to scan through)

- I already figured out how to change the backgrounds in the various info boxes (especially the detailed battle report) ... so this isn't on my list

- Add buttons to bring armored units to the top of a stack; and one for infantry; and one for engineers; and one for arty ... like the button for bringing the HQ's to the top of the stack

- Add a button to bring up a text box that reads the sitrep.txt file and puts it in a pop-up window (with scroll bars to pan down through the report)

this is a wish list topic ... so there's mine
[&o]




PaladinSix -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 9:15:50 PM)

To add to the earlier suggestion about highlighting the rail network, that would be a lot more useful if you could also show the hexes at which the rail lines are broken. Maybe just an orange highlight on all rail lines, but show any broken hexes in red, or something like that. Currently, unless your eyes are better than mine, you have to slowly scroll over every rail hex and watch the info panel to be sure if the line is intact or not.

Come to think of it, is it possible to reorganize the info panel at the bottom of the screen? Just space things out a little, with predictable locations (and maybe color-coded). For instance, the hex location could be separate, in large, bold print at the very bottom left corner, then separate, distinct areas for terrain, reconaissance, rail/road info, etc. Simply cramming it all into one line of text makes it kind of hard to quickly scan for information.

Lastly, is it possible to add a third option to the button that switches between movement/attack factors? Specifically, I'm thinking of a toggle for unit designations. Obviously, the info on the enemy would be limited by intelligence and recon, but it would be handy to quickly identify the unit and parent formation of friendly units. Plus, think of the value in being able get an intelligence officer's view of the front and determine which enemy units seem to be split up to understrength.

Just a few thoughts,

PaladinSix




alaric99x -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 9:33:41 PM)

I second the motion about rail lines.  It's very difficult to see broken rail hexes, I've had to do a lot of scrolling myself to find them.  It might be possible to leave them as they are but include a button or command that would highlight them in some way.




Silvanski -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 9:38:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: alaric99x

I second the motion about rail lines.  It's very difficult to see broken rail hexes, I've had to do a lot of scrolling myself to find them.  It might be possible to leave them as they are but include a button or command that would highlight them in some way.


This might help (on the minimized map)




Industrial -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 10:26:17 PM)

I though it might be a good idea to post this here too (posted it at SZO already), even if it's not GUI related, it's still one of my biggest TOAW pet peeves and prevented me from upgrading to TOAW III so far [:D]

-------------< here we go >------------

Oh, one last thing, it's not GUI but it's my Nr. 1 annoyance in the world of TOAW: give players an option to _disable_ turn-burns and early turn endings!

I cant think of any example in history where one part of the front paused to wait for an strategically and tactically unconnected part of the front to finish its fighting.

Was Army Group north pausing to wait for AGS to breach the Stalin Line?

Was the Normandy Invasion put on hold becaus ethe Allies were engaged in Italy?

Did the US stopped their attack on Baghdad because the british had troubles in Basra?

Was Operation Bagration suddenly stopped because the finnish managed to put a pretty cunning defence?

Strategically linked battles are already covered pretty well, if a battle isn't resolved succesfully and for example a road-blocking unit still resisting, all units who wanted to advance that way will have to wait a little longer, no problem there. But if this battle to destroy the roadfblock takes 5-combat turns, why should any other part of the front stop its advance?

Same goes for early turn endings, I simply don't see any reason at all why a turn should end early. A turn of 10 rounds represents xx hours, with an early turn ending we have a situation where all of a sudden several (up to) days are simply missing from a week, where an entire front 'forgets' to dig in because the orders can't be given. Where, after finally clearing the persistant roadblock, the invading forces 'forget' to advance and sit idle for days....
If you want to simulate disruped chain of command, with orders not getting through, there are way better ways to model it! Like putting the specific formation thats cut off in reOrg, or (and I like that version better) half a cut-off's formation MovementPoints, to simulate the delay in orders.

I know that TOAW III allows scenario designers to modify it, yet players still have no control over these features, but they should have. It belongs into the advanced rules, and both players should be able to decide prior to playing a scenario whether they want early-turn-endings/turn burns or not.




golden delicious -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 10:56:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Industrial

Oh, one last thing, it's not GUI but it's my Nr. 1 annoyance in the world of TOAW: give players an option to _disable_ turn-burns and early turn endings!


I guess this thread is going to receive a good many new posts in the next couple of days, then.

quote:

Same goes for early turn endings, I simply don't see any reason at all why a turn should end early.


Because sometimes things shouldn't work like clockwork. In the real world, you can't just attack for six days and dig in on the seventh. The other guy gets to do his moves at the same time.

quote:

yet players still have no control over these features, but they should have.


No. I don't think players should be allowed to break scenarios- for their own good. Of course, you can always go into the scenario editor yourself anyway.




Industrial -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/10/2006 11:45:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Because sometimes things shouldn't work like clockwork. In the real world, you can't just attack for six days and dig in on the seventh. The other guy gets to do his moves at the same time.


Just as in real life you say? I know what you mean, my week never has exactly 7 days, my days never 24h, and sometimes I wake up and 3 days have passed without me noticing it [;)]

OK, we are talking operational level here, battles might not go as planed, advances might be slower than expected, units might get routed or shot combat-unfit through fierce battle, yes, many things can go wrong, but all of them are pretty good modeled already. Battles taking longer than anticipated? No problem, but they shouldn't prevent the rest of the front from doing something (anything!) in the meantime.

Advances are slow (because of mud or unexpected enemy units blocking the road? Sure, it's nicely modeled

units forced into reorg after an attack unable to do anything? Sure, its in the game already.

But... can you tell me any occurence during one of the many wars that raged over the last century that would come close to turn-burn effects or early turn endings?

Ah, I know, do you remember when during the opening phase of Barbarossa after 6 houres of combat the entire german army suddenly stopped doing anything for a week, which gave the soviets ample time to evacuate their entire forward units? No? Neither do I.

Or do you remember when at the beginning of Bagration after the opening devastating soviet artillery barrage all 10 million soldiers on both sides suddenly stopped fighting because they were glued to the radio, following the intense battle between a soviet recon company and a finish engineer platoon in the arctic north, which raged on for 1 week ? (it was a draw, soviet losses 10%, finnish losses 8%) The soviet recon units vowed to continue its attack next week, so the other soviet armies are not expecting any combat along their sectors in the near future. No? Neitehr do I.

Or do you remeber the recent incident when a US ranger companny attacked an iraqi stronghold near the syrian border, and all US attacks on Baghdad were stopped, to allow the US boys together with the fedejin saddam to follow the battle on CNN? No? Neitehr do I.

Such things dont happen in real combat, there is no such thing as turn burn effects, there is a reason why each army has its own staff, why each division has its own commander, why each platon has its own CO. They are no borgs who all simultanious stopp fighting once their connection to the mainframe is cut. They can continue to fight even without any communication, they usually get their objectives (take town XYZ) and should they lose contact with their HQ they simply try to follow their orders as good as possible.

quote:

No. I don't think players should be allowed to break scenarios- for their own good. Of course, you can always go into the scenario editor yourself anyway.


I strongly believe that this is something players should be able to control, just like Fog of War , if both sides agree to play without FOW (for example because they are beginners) its should be possible, if both want to activate/deactivate Command & Control they should be able to. The scenario designer should give advices of how he thinks his scenario is best played, if he thinks active disengagement should be turned off, he can state his opinion in the readme, but the final decision should be on the players side.




Telumar -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/11/2006 12:06:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Industrial

Such things dont happen in real combat, there is no such thing as turn burn effects, there is a reason why each army has its own staff, why each division has its own commander, why each platon has its own CO. They are no borgs who all simultanious stopp fighting once their connection to the mainframe is cut. They can continue to fight even without any communication, they usually get their objectives (take town XYZ) and should they lose contact with their HQ they simply try to follow their orders as good as possible.



An idea: Why not applying turn burn effects to the involved unit(s) or formation(s) instead to the whole force? For example PanzerBn A attacks InfantryRegt B and soaks up 8 combat rounds, so PanzerBn A will be down to 20% movement left while PanzerBn X, not participating in an attack still has 70% MPs left (because the attack with the highest loss tolerance setting during that round was at 'ignore losses' - or 80% left if it was at limit losses)..




Glorfindel -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/11/2006 12:35:44 AM)

I think it would be great if an attack overview screen could be implemented that is before all the planned attacks are executed this window pops up where all intended attacks are seen.  It could for example be specified as attack a) b) c) etc with all the forces paticipating (all of yours and those of your opponentīs of which you are aware) the hex where it takes place, combat odds and so on. This would help a lot in giving the player a clearer picture of what is to come and to avoid silly mistakes.




parusski -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/11/2006 1:28:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
Larry,
Did you knwo that the + and - keys work on most screens now?[:'(]
Ralph


Yeah, but to use the + and - keys I gotta take my hand off the mouse and carry it all the way over to the keyboard. Takes at least 1/2 second and I ain't got that kinda time sometimes. You understand, I'm sure.


That was funny...I don't have that much time either.




golden delicious -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/11/2006 1:40:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Industrial

Just as in real life you say? I know what you mean, my week never has exactly 7 days, my days never 24h, and sometimes I wake up and 3 days have passed without me noticing it [;)]


Except all your units which have used their full movement allowance, or dug in. Those have had the full length of the turn.

quote:

OK, we are talking operational level here, battles might not go as planed, advances might be slower than expected, units might get routed or shot combat-unfit through fierce battle, yes, many things can go wrong, but all of them are pretty good modeled already. Battles taking longer than anticipated? No problem, but they shouldn't prevent the rest of the front from doing something (anything!) in the meantime.


Your proposal was knee-jerk and incomplete. Would all units retain their full move even if a combat had run to completion? Or would everyone just break off combat after one round? Either "solution" would be worse than the current situation.

A simple and elegant solution has been proposed on another forum: that units which remain engaged after each round of combat should be frozen whilst the player sets up a new set of attacks. A failed check against force proficiency would still end the turn. This satisfies me entirely

quote:

But... can you tell me any occurence during one of the many wars that raged over the last century that would come close to turn-burn effects or early turn endings?


Any occasion where an attacking force has been caught off-guard by a counterattack whilst still deployed offensively and suffered as a consequence. Any of numerous battles where a commander tried something elaborate and had one element go wrong, leaving his whole force screwed.

quote:

Ah, I know, do you remember when during the opening phase of Barbarossa after 6 houres of combat the entire german army suddenly stopped doing anything for a week, which gave the soviets ample time to evacuate their entire forward units? No? Neither do I.


I've never had this occur in any Barbarossa scenario. Most of them have positive German shock, which almost entirely eliminates this effect.




golden delicious -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/11/2006 1:43:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

An idea: Why not applying turn burn effects to the involved unit(s) or formation(s) instead to the whole force? For example PanzerBn A attacks InfantryRegt B and soaks up 8 combat rounds, so PanzerBn A will be down to 20% movement left while PanzerBn X, not participating in an attack still has 70% MPs left (because the attack with the highest loss tolerance setting during that round was at 'ignore losses' - or 80% left if it was at limit losses)..


Panzer Battalion X then attacks and burns its entire move in turn. Infantry Regiment B has now fought for 32 hours out of 24- and the turn's not over. This gets even worse with passive artillery support.

Also, doing this by formation would encourage players to mix their formations up even more than they do already. See the solution I posted (originally from Rhino Bones, I believe).




Telumar -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/11/2006 2:06:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Panzer Battalion X then attacks and burns its entire move in turn. Infantry Regiment B has now fought for 32 hours out of 24- and the turn's not over. This gets even worse with passive artillery support.


No. 24 hours engaged against two Panzer Battalions simultaneously.

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Also, doing this by formation would encourage players to mix their formations up even more than they do already. See the solution I posted (originally from Rhino Bones, I believe).


Forget about the formation thing. Just the unit, you're right.

I always try to keep my formations together. Try. What about a 'formation integrity' radius? .... Hey, wasn't the discussion proposed to be at SZO? [;)]




golden delicious -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/11/2006 2:26:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Telumar

No. 24 hours engaged against two Panzer Battalions simultaneously.


...with some passive artillery giving double support to the attack. Better yet, triple support if you throw another battalion in for the third round.

quote:

Forget about the formation thing. Just the unit, you're right.


Well, I think units should be frozen and combat paused after each round. Not the same as your suggestion.

quote:

I always try to keep my formations together. Try. What about a 'formation integrity' radius?


That would help, yeah. At the moment players have only very limited and passing incentives not to have the division HQ a thousand miles away from its units.




Industrial -> RE: Interface Wish List (7/11/2006 2:49:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
A simple and elegant solution has been proposed on another forum: that units which remain engaged after each round of combat should be frozen whilst the player sets up a new set of attacks. A failed check against force proficiency would still end the turn. This satisfies me entirely


Thats my ideal solution, too, (except for the early turn ending!) problem is that it would probably require quite a lot of code-rewrite, so as an intermediate solution I could live with units breaking off an attack and beeing able to be given new orders again.

Ideally, when the unit is locked in combat as you proposed, I get an option to break off combat, with the other unit (maybe based on its proficiency/loss settin) getting a chance for an immediate counter-push (similar to an disengagement attack). After this counterattack the unit should return to its original hex and fortification status.

quote:


quote:

But... can you tell me any occurence during one of the many wars that raged over the last century that would come close to turn-burn effects or early turn endings?


Any occasion where an attacking force has been caught off-guard by a counterattack whilst still deployed offensively and suffered as a consequence. Any of numerous battles where a commander tried something elaborate and had one element go wrong, leaving his whole force screwed.


none of these come even close to the situation an early turn ending or turn-burn produces, as it would mean that because for example something goes wrong with the attack of one division, 6 army groups suddenly stop whatever they are doing for x days.
IF we somehow could manage to include such things in an IGOYOUGO game, it should only influence the units/formations directly affected by this, not the entire theather of battle (often including allies who have their completely seperate command structure)

quote:


quote:

Ah, I know, do you remember when during the opening phase of Barbarossa after 6 houres of combat the entire german army suddenly stopped doing anything for a week, which gave the soviets ample time to evacuate their entire forward units? No? Neither do I.


I've never had this occur in any Barbarossa scenario. Most of them have positive German shock, which almost entirely eliminates this effect.

OK, well it happened quite often to me in DNO, usually it was the finnish front (opening at turn 6 and by than the Axis shock is gone), I had for example a finnish regiment attack a soviet engineer company, burning 5 combat rounds in a row because they decided to continue attacking, completely screwing up the entire german front.
I 'fixed' this by simply ignoring the finnish front, as they seemed to be most prone to produce turn burns (low attack ratings and little support units, so the defender wont retreat, defending units with low combat strength, so the attacker wont break off because he's not taking enough losses to fail the moral check)




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