1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (Full Version)

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Owen -> 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/11/2006 9:55:41 PM)

I don't post here very often but this is a pet peeve of mine. In turn based games time and distance really need to fit together logically. 2 turns a day on a 1 km hex simply does not make sense. It's too coarse. It allows units far too much freedom of movement within a turn.

How far can a truck travel on a road in 12 hrs? 300 hexes or so. How far can an infantryman walk on foot? 10 to 20 hexes or more. To my mind this much freedom of movement makes a system too "gamey". I imagine that the decision to go with this type of time and scale ratio was made for marketing reasons. They decided they wanted a battalion level game. So that was set. They want to feature famous battles but they don't want the scenarios to last for hundreds of turns.

I think the old V for Victory and World at War systems used a 1 km hex with a 4 hr turn during daylight and 6 hr at night. This seems much more sensible to me.



mariovalleemtl -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/11/2006 10:40:54 PM)

quote:

1 km hex with a 4 hr turn during daylight and 6 hr at night. This seems much more sensible to me. Owen


I agee with that. But there is also a big different when a unit move in his own territories compare when the same unit move in enemy territory or adjacent of enemy. I am sure the game will take care of that.
[sm=tank2-39.gif]



Massattack -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/11/2006 10:46:54 PM)

Excellent point. I raised this before in the DB series. Turn time and hex scale should be optimised, and either a 2 or 4 hour turn should work best for a 1km hex. Panzer campaigns have this down well. Otherwise huge and unreaistic exploitations of gaps in lines occur.

Regards



Fred98 -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/12/2006 1:15:42 AM)

In the "game clock"  of any game I always think in terms of turns, not hours days or weeks.

Turn "26 of 32" I all I care about.




JSS -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/12/2006 3:07:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owen

...In turn based games time and distance really need to fit together logically...


You're spot on here. Movement rates, combat capability, and supply should work together in an integrated way.

While 6 turns per day at 1km was a sentimental favorite of mine from V4V, that doesn't make it an absolute truth. Combat capability is the biggest issue IMHO. If you have 6 turns per day that allows 3x as many combat actions as the 2 turns per day you're discussing. That may be a bigger issue than anything else.

Is one right and the other wrong? Personally I think both are right answers (when movement, combat capability, and supply are in synch for the number of turns per day).

Finally the beauty of Battlefront is that it will allow you to decide which time frame works for you! It appears to me that the editor will allow you to make a scenario using any number of turns per day.



Gregor_SSG -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/12/2006 4:38:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owen

I don't post here very often but this is a pet peeve of mine. In turn based games time and distance really need to fit together logically. 2 turns a day on a 1 km hex simply does not make sense. It's too coarse. It allows units far too much freedom of movement within a turn.

How far can a truck travel on a road in 12 hrs? 300 hexes or so. How far can an infantryman walk on foot? 10 to 20 hexes or more. To my mind this much freedom of movement makes a system too "gamey". I imagine that the decision to go with this type of time and scale ratio was made for marketing reasons. They decided they wanted a battalion level game. So that was set. They want to feature famous battles but they don't want the scenarios to last for hundreds of turns.

I think the old V for Victory and World at War systems used a 1 km hex with a 4 hr turn during daylight and 6 hr at night. This seems much more sensible to me.


I think we have this covered very well, but before addressing the question can I just say that we never base design decisions on marketing reasons. If we wanted to make money, we wouldn't be in this market at all, we do it because we want to, and we design the games, first and foremost, that we want to play.

So to the real issue. We have always had a penalty for moving in an enemy controlled hex. Not occupied, or in a ZOC, but just enemy controlled. In Battlefront, the maximum possible penalty has been almost doubled. So the scenario designer, should they wish, can slow your advance to Battle of the Somme rates, or allow more freedom of movement, at their discretion. This approach also allows you to move longer distances behind your own lines in territory that you control.

The design of the HQ units in Battlefront will also more or less remove any incentive to uproot units and deploy them extravagantly around the map. The next article on the SSG website will give an overview on the HQ units will work.

Gregor




geozero -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/12/2006 6:47:51 AM)

My only concern is that it doesn't allow for accurate combat modeling. WW2 saw great strides made in communications and motorised/mechanised movement.

If as a Commander you issue an attack order and the distance travelled is only 3-4km (or hexes), than it should not take 12 hours (1 game turn) to issue new orders. It just doesn't make sense. Not at this scale.

What if you breach a front line, do you have to wait 12 hours to get orders to exploit it?

I do, however, like what you have done with enemy control areas restricting movement, and HQ's. These will affect the foot soldier more than motorised units?



Fred98 -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/12/2006 7:39:12 AM)

quote:


What if you breach a front line, do you have to wait 12 hours to get orders to exploit it?



No. In one turn a unit can attack and move so, long as it does not exceed its store of operational points for the turn.




wodin -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/12/2006 11:52:14 AM)

Did you say Battle of the Somme! CAn I see a user made scenario in the future...................??



Ola Berli -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/12/2006 4:09:35 PM)

Wodin,

I am not myself a sce. designer. But for the Decisve Battles series there are alot of user made sce.
Some of them of superb design. I am sure that the same designers would do the same for the Battlefront
serie. You mention Somme as a topic for sce. What about the battles more in the end of WWI, including tuff
US marines, tanks , airpower and german stormtroopers woulden't that be more interesting, I think so [:D]

Regards
Ola



sol_invictus -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/12/2006 4:15:13 PM)

Agreed, I would opt for very early to very late WWI scenarios. I really don't want to wallow in the mud and blood of the Somme or Verdun.



geozero -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/15/2006 1:47:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:


What if you breach a front line, do you have to wait 12 hours to get orders to exploit it?



No. In one turn a unit can attack and move so, long as it does not exceed its store of operational points for the turn.





So what you are saying is: if I attack an adjacent enemy hex/unit and say that unit is destroyed, do I get to issue more orders to my unit at that turn, or have to wait for the next turn?

The other thing is with a 12 hour turn how is night factored in? Typically units move slower or have more difficulty in combat at night. Air Strikes might not be available or limited due to lack of visibility.



Fred98 -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/15/2006 4:53:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero
if I attack an adjacent enemy hex/unit and say that unit is destroyed, do I get to issue more orders to my unit at that turn, or have to wait for the next turn?



There are a number of variables and so long as they line up you can issue more orders that same turn.





geozero -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/15/2006 10:08:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero
if I attack an adjacent enemy hex/unit and say that unit is destroyed, do I get to issue more orders to my unit at that turn, or have to wait for the next turn?



There are a number of variables and so long as they line up you can issue more orders that same turn.





That's good news. Is this true of any unit or just mechanized?



Fred98 -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/16/2006 7:07:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero
That's good news. Is this true of any unit or just mechanized?


True of all combat units.





kipanderson -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/16/2006 9:52:07 AM)

Hi,

I agree that two 12 hour turns is pushing the envelope with 1km per hex [;)].

The best operation/battalion scale turns with 1km or 1mile per hex I have always thought is two day-time turns, one night-time turn. From 6pm to 6am then 6am to midday and midday to 6pm. Perfect for this scale [:)].

Four hour turns is too little for an operational game unless you greatly restrict what can happen in any one turn.

All the best,
Kip.




Missouri_Rebel -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/17/2006 3:39:34 AM)

I tend to agree with the original poster; 2 turns seems very restrictive to me. What I personally think would be a better choice would be to have two or possibly 3 daytime turns and one night turn. That way daily plans could be somewhat altered, counter attacks could be formed and breakthroughs could be exploited/stopped on the second turn etc. of the day. The one single night turn would allow greater movement rates for road movement and motorised because of the double amount of time involved,but greatly reduced foot movement and combat effectiveness. I also think it would help eliminate the constant large area 'shuffling' of units in any given turn, something that turned me off to the DB series of which I own 2 titles, BIN being the last purchased.

I am sure it is a little late in development to change something of this calibre, but as has been pointed out, 12 hour turns seems to be too restrictive. Even for an Op level game. Still I should like to try a demo before I jump to too big of a conclusion.

Mo Reb



Fred98 -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/17/2006 5:35:47 AM)

In the current games, the weather is either good or bad.

The change in weather affects numerous variables in the game

Good or bad is a relative thing and the definition varies from one scenario to the next.

In one scenario, instead of good and bad he had day and night. Each having an affect on the variables.

In the current games of the DB Series there are no night turns as such.











geozero -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/17/2006 6:40:39 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98


In the current games there are no night turns as such.




Wow. No night turns?

At all?

I can live with many of the other issues, and you have been great at explaining how the game would function, but no night turns?

This is a critical element IMO if you are trying to get anything close to a wargame simulation.

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably still get the game as I'm intrigued by many of its other possibilities...

but no night turns?

It's like saying we'll design a wargame where we should take out an important element, like supply or zoc. Guns with no ammo restriction. Planes with unlimited flying time.

Come on?

I'd really love to see a practical and reasonable explanation for this. Cause it don't make any sense.

No night turns?




WhiteOwl -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/17/2006 6:59:15 AM)

I think he means the DB series, not Battlefront. As far as I understands Battlefront WILL feature night turns.



JSS -> RE: 1 KM Hex is Out of Whack With 12 Hr Turns (7/17/2006 3:56:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geozero


Wow. No night turns?

At all?

I can live with many of the other issues, and you have been great at explaining how the game would function, but no night turns?

This is a critical element IMO if you are trying to get anything close to a wargame simulation.

Don't get me wrong, I'll probably still get the game as I'm intrigued by many of its other possibilities...

but no night turns?

It's like saying we'll design a wargame where we should take out an important element, like supply or zoc. Guns with no ammo restriction. Planes with unlimited flying time.

Come on?

I'd really love to see a practical and reasonable explanation for this. Cause it don't make any sense.

No night turns?




It's up to the designer really.

The DB Patton battleset features night turns and it works really well. It also slows game play a good deal. A 12 hour turn factors night period into each one... its a matter of putting the normal night impacts into the scenario values. Seemed odd to me at first too. Now I don't miss night turns at all... I like the Patton game but overall have come to not like night turns... seems to be a painful turn or two of waiting. DB works really well without explict night turns (impact is factored into each turn capabaility... supply rate, movement... especially where you consume much more supply each turn than you typically receive... if you don't rest then your forces become immobile & exhausted).... again DB is an operational wargame in the truest sense, so its not a big issue.

So... with 12 hour turns you have am & pm turns... no need for a dedicated night turn. If you go to 3/4/6 turns per day, you would need to make a dedicated night turn. Which you can do as the scenario designer if you want...



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