A Japanese First Attempt (Full Version)

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Exinfernis -> A Japanese First Attempt (7/13/2006 4:33:08 PM)

Hello.

Having satisfactorily progressed with my Allied campaign into late '42, I decided to give the Japs a try. Now I have read and taken stock of numerous good threads, however I feel uncertain on a number of issues.

On the matter of expanding the industry, I chose to approach it cautiously, letting the Claudes & the Nells upgrade by themselves come January 42. Decided to switch Ishikawajima & Nissan engines to Nakajima. Similarly, re-tooled all Kawasaki factories to Nakajima barring the Maizuru one. Thinking to start expanding a few shipyards (which?) and armaments factories.

What really daunts me is the way HI works. For example, Fushan has a HI of 30 and it is producing 300 resources, 50 oil and 2 manpower. Will its HI grow on its own since it produces both goods? Also with the Home Islands industrial centers, do I need to dump their HI total *1 for oil and *2 for resources plus keeping 10k supplies stocked for them to work on a daily basis? Reason for the question is that quite a few of them produce oil and/or resourses on their own.

Given that the Japanese have decent stockpiles til mid-42 -when the DEI, Philippines, Malaya & a good chunk of Burma ought to be under control - the suggestion that approx. 6000 oil and 6000 resources are needed to be transported to the Home Islands on a monthly basis is accurate? What are the corresponding figures for Formosa and the Chinese mainland, or for that matter all other bases with HI present like Singapore, Saigon etc?

I am sure I have more queries, but this a solid start. Thx for your attention.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/13/2006 5:52:23 PM)

HI won't expand alone, and I won't expand any before you have the SRA under control and know which part of it is safe from Allied heavy bombers. Increasing any kind of factories is costing supplies, and the key of Japanese economy is to always have enough supplies to wage the war, and only expand the industry with the extra production.

As for the extra oil and resources produced in Fushan, all porduction not needed locally will go to other bases connected by rail, road or "ferry" (if two hexes are sperated by sea but have a port each... this allows all Japan to be treated as the same land mass for economical gestion).

Then as for the needs of the various part of the Empire:

China/Korea/Manchouoko: extra production of 600 resources a day, but consumes 600 oil more than what it produces. So needs two 9000-ton TK a month (one in Korea, and one in China at start). Probably with Japanese conquests, it will increase to a 9000 and a 16000-ton TK a month.
At start this area has enough oil for 8 months.

Indochina/Thailand and SE Asia: extra production of resources (enough to fill 8 7000-ton AK per week) but is lacking a bit oil. A 9000-ton TK per month in Saigon is enough. At start this area has enough oil for one year.

Formosa needs both ressources and oil, about 5000 a month each, and has enough to run for only two months at start. Could be a good idea to move some of the stock from Japan at start. Then an AK and a small TK each month (or two big AK and a big TK every three months) are needed.

Japan is the big hole in your resource/oil pool... The needs (at start) are 7700 resources and 7600 oil a day (after the local production is gone), or 35 7000-ton AK and 15 16000-ton TK each month... Stockpiles are high enough for seven months.

All these numbers are before you expand your HI. You may be surprised by the fact that you need more resources than oil but each manpower center needs 5 resources a day (simulation of the civilian needs?), and in the end you will need around 5000 more resources than oil each day in the whole Empire.

My last advice: check each of your aircraft factory and ask yourself if you need it. If you have a stockpile of 400 AC, and lost 30 a month, you can halt the factory and save the HI and engines it is using. Also I will advice you to not repair most of the research factories, and halt them too. This will save both supplies and HI. Research only works in the last 6-8 months before the release of the type, before that it is a waste.

A lats point to check is to deal with naval production: at start you have a good extra production of merchant points, enabling you to accelerate some CVE and convert a dozen AK to AR (about ten) and MLE (2 of them is my usual number). You have enough AV and AS at start to not convert any more, while you will never have enough AR (in late 1942 I have about 20).
The warships production at start use more points than the available capacity. I usually stop the Shinano (as almost all people do) and also the Taiho (not usual), that allows me to accelerate other ships (my favorite being to accelerate two Unryu CV rather than build the Taiho).

Hope this helps.



seydlitz_slith -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/14/2006 6:11:09 AM)

Here is my advice for playing Japan:
1.Do not initially expand any of your aircraft or engine industries. Instead, rebalance current production to meet your needs. Think of it as living on a budget.
2. I accomplish #1 by ending production on aircraft types that I consider obsolete, or that I have excess aircraft. I usually concentrate on production of zeroes, Betty bombers, Mavis, and some Kates, Vals, and Oscars. Change some of the researching plants over to production.

3. Rebalance your engine production to match what you are producing.

4. Expand some of your repair yards. You will need them.

5. Be cautious about expanding your naval shipyards. I do some minor exapnsion on a few, about a month into the game, and even then you can see the effect on your resources and supply.

5. Build (and accelerate) some ARs and a few MLEs. YOu can never have enough, and you need them as fast as you can.

6. Make sure you keep your damaged ships spread out over multiple ports to keep from overburdening any one repair yard.

7. Halt the Shinano, halt the Taiho. This will give you enough points to accelerate the Musashi. Leave Yamato on normal. You know you want them, and this way they will both arrive within a month of each other. After they are done, you can turn Taiho back on , accelerated.

8. Subsare another good thing to stop if you need shipbuilding points for other ships, as one sub on normal will just about offset one DD on accelerated.

Hope this helps.



1EyedJacks -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/14/2006 9:55:23 AM)

seydlitz has some nice ideas.

Can I ask what you'll be doing with your BBs? Most players seem to use them for Bombardment missions and Carrier escorts... If you think you might use BBs in a similiar fashion and you think you have enough BBs then you might halt the Yamato and her sister ship - they are about 185pts each - right?

As a Japanese player I never have enough ASW ships - I'd push through some of your DDs, PCs, and PGs - we have a lot of transports that will need escorting against his subs.

With some of those extra merchie points you should consider converting some of your AKs to Repair Ships - these are handy at bases close to the front for your ships that take damage...

If playing a stock game then halting the Shinano, as seydlitz suggests, is not a bad idea either. More points to spend on the ships you want soonest.[:)]

I'm playing a CHS game against Scott1964 and the Shinano can carry 120 aircraft in the mod we are playing. I'm seriously considering acellerating her...[:D]



saj42 -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/14/2006 3:12:26 PM)

As well as all the other good advice here I do the following:
1. expand vehicle factories, eventually to triple the starting number
2. expand the small armament factories (up to 20 minimum).

But do this slowly.



Mike Solli -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/14/2006 5:49:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks

Can I ask what you'll be doing with your BBs? Most players seem to use them for Bombardment missions and Carrier escorts... If you think you might use BBs in a similiar fashion and you think you have enough BBs then you might halt the Yamato and her sister ship - they are about 185pts each - right?



I use the 4 Kongos as CV escorts. The remaining 8 BBs are used mainly for bombardment and cautiously as surface warfare ships. I say cautiously because the Japanese have only 12 BBs for the entire war and I like to have them as a deterrent. If they are sunk early in the war, then the Allied player can be that much more aggressive.



seydlitz_slith -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/15/2006 4:01:49 AM)

When doing your shipbuilding, check every turn. Sort by arrival date and filter down to one type of ship at a time.  Check to make sure that all the ships that you want to be advancing are advancing.  Also check the  naval shipyard number on the resources summary.  Ideally, you want the number in parentheses to be as small as possible. That means you are using every point.  Some people say any number between 50 and 100 in parentheses is good.  I tend to keep it in the 2-25  range.  After all, if it is 11 or higher, there is probably a DD you could be building.  However, this method requires checking your ships every turn to make sure the one's you want are advancing, and then making adjustments  (halt a couple, but mostly pick what is on normal and what is on accelerated). After you get this set, check every turn and tweak as necessary.  You can actually get most things advancing like you want, with critical ships accelerated.  Keep track of your points.  Use a calculator.  A ship on accelerated takes 3 days worth of points to advance  2 days.  (ex: A DD is 11 points on normal.  On accelerated, it would take 33 points. Note that an I boat takes 33 on normal. If needed, you can halt the I boat and accelerate the DD).  When a ship is just about complete, notice how many points a day is is using. Start planning how you will spend those points when it is finished. (I use a calculator and play the old plus minus game)  On the turn after it is finished, immediately  reinvest the points by accelerating something else, or resuming construction of something.    In my games,  I get both the Yamato and the Musashi around turn 180.  Since I paid normal for Yamato and accelerated for the Musashi over the whole period, then I can immediately turn around as they are completed and spend the accelerated points to resume (accelerated) some of the carriers (including Taiho), and some of the DDs that come with radar or better ASW.  Paying close attention to the waste numbers can make you very efficient and get better ships into action faster than a player who doesn't pay close attention.

Again, I can not say with enough emphasis, the most important thing you can build on turn one are at least 12 AR ships....all on accelerated.  Having them early could make a big difference in your tempo of operations.



tsimmonds -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/15/2006 4:59:43 AM)

quote:

A ship on accelerated takes 3 days worth of points to advance 2 days. (ex: A DD is 11 points on normal. On accelerated, it would take 33 points.


This is true only if the ship is within (10 X durability) days of availability. If the ship is less than (30 X durability) days of availability but more than (10 X durability) days of availability, acceleration costs only 1 days worth of points. Since normal construction during this period is free, to advance 2 days only costs 1 days worth of points.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/15/2006 11:13:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

When doing your shipbuilding, check every turn. Sort by arrival date and filter down to one type of ship at a time.  Check to make sure that all the ships that you want to be advancing are advancing.  Also check the  naval shipyard number on the resources summary.  Ideally, you want the number in parentheses to be as small as possible. That means you are using every point.  Some people say any number between 50 and 100 in parentheses is good.  I tend to keep it in the 2-25  range.  After all, if it is 11 or higher, there is probably a DD you could be building.  However, this method requires checking your ships every turn to make sure the one's you want are advancing, and then making adjustments  (halt a couple, but mostly pick what is on normal and what is on accelerated). After you get this set, check every turn and tweak as necessary.  You can actually get most things advancing like you want, with critical ships accelerated.  Keep track of your points.  Use a calculator.  A ship on accelerated takes 3 days worth of points to advance  2 days.  (ex: A DD is 11 points on normal.  On accelerated, it would take 33 points. Note that an I boat takes 33 on normal. If needed, you can halt the I boat and accelerate the DD).  When a ship is just about complete, notice how many points a day is is using. Start planning how you will spend those points when it is finished. (I use a calculator and play the old plus minus game)  On the turn after it is finished, immediately  reinvest the points by accelerating something else, or resuming construction of something.    In my games,  I get both the Yamato and the Musashi around turn 180.  Since I paid normal for Yamato and accelerated for the Musashi over the whole period, then I can immediately turn around as they are completed and spend the accelerated points to resume (accelerated) some of the carriers (including Taiho), and some of the DDs that come with radar or better ASW.  Paying close attention to the waste numbers can make you very efficient and get better ships into action faster than a player who doesn't pay close attention.

Again, I can not say with enough emphasis, the most important thing you can build on turn one are at least 12 AR ships....all on accelerated.  Having them early could make a big difference in your tempo of operations.


This is IMOO a time-consuming method. My own method is to have pool of both shipyard points (warship and merchant) between 500 and 1000 everytime, it it went below 500, I will stop a ship or stop accelerating her, it it went above 1000, I will accelerate or restart one. And so I am sure that all my ships are advancing. And I "lost" only one day of production, that is not much in a game like WITP.



Exinfernis -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/17/2006 3:06:43 PM)

Much appreciate the rich feedback. Shall implement it from scratch, as I restarted my campaign!

Cheers



Ron Saueracker -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/17/2006 3:32:24 PM)

quote:

I say cautiously because the Japanese have only 12 BBs for the entire war and I like to have them as a deterrent. If they are sunk early in the war, then the Allied player can be that much more aggressive.

Mike Solli


That's what the Japs did in RL...sort of a waste.



Mike Solli -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/18/2006 7:18:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

I say cautiously because the Japanese have only 12 BBs for the entire war and I like to have them as a deterrent. If they are sunk early in the war, then the Allied player can be that much more aggressive.

Mike Solli


That's what the Japs did in RL...sort of a waste.


I never said I don't use them. (Just ask my opponents.) I'm just cautious with them.



Exinfernis -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/22/2006 6:49:58 PM)

As stated, restarted the campaign (Scen.15, stock game, ahistoric first move). Spent considerable time in planning the first move. And for some reason, several TFs don't seem to acknowledge their orders.

Upon loading the scenario, there were about 10 AI-generated TFS, some of which I kept, while others I amended in composition and/or destination.

At the end of the orders phase, I scrounged up another 140 TFs and was eagely anticipating the results of my toils. However, around 15-20 TFS moved a single hexside towards their destination, with the most critical lapsers being the PH TF1 and the Bombardment TF6 (originally scheduled for Guam but diverted to Wake instead - thx for the tip Amiral Laurent!).

Now, the strange thing is that I tried to run a first turn upon loading the scenario, just to get a feel of the situation and in that instance, both these TFs dilligently performed their duties.. I have since tried 4 times to run the now finished orders phase, but these 15-20 TFs refused to budge more than a hexside. The same ones all the time.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thx



Mifune -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/22/2006 7:26:58 PM)

Some of the TF slots are hard coded with certain LCU's to be used with those TF's. Even with manual adjustments (no A.I. involved) LCU's other than those expected wont load (or other strange issues arise). I know with RHS the TF slots had to be changed to get around the hard code limitations.



Exinfernis -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/23/2006 2:41:08 PM)

Let me clarify in greater detail:

Most of those TFs that appear to be reluctant to move more than one hex from their point of origin to their destination are surface combat units that I sent to Takao (it is a knack of mine to re-arrange TFs in my own style :).

Most of these comprise from one to 15 vessels. There are a few transport TFs which having loaded the troops/supplies, were also lazy enough to move only one hex too.

All that I can live with, though I could do without. As far as the PH strike force is concerned, it remains TF 1. I only removed the BBs from it and ordered them to Takao too. Similarly, the Bonin-stationed Bombardment TF 6 set up by the AI to smother Guam retains the same tag as TF 6 with no adjustments to its composition, I only altered its destination hex to that of Wake.

Therefore, although I can understand the potential problems arising out of hard-coded limitations, I fail to see how such restrictions can impact 2 TFs that are already created at start by the game.

Any further thoughts? I find not being able to attack PH very unhistoric not to mention frustrating.

Thx



mogami -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/23/2006 5:15:20 PM)

Hi, Please send your file to MNeer1@woh.rr.com so I can attempt to understand cause of your problem, (I make turn 1 changes every game I am Japan without problems)



mogami -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/24/2006 1:19:07 PM)

Hi, we got it working. Bombardment TF need to be set to "do not retire" since there is no night phase on turn 1 and TF set to retire will not approach enemy base in daylight.



Exinfernis -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/26/2006 2:00:57 PM)

Indeed we did.Thx Mogami!



herwin -> RE: A Japanese First Attempt (7/26/2006 2:15:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

quote:

I say cautiously because the Japanese have only 12 BBs for the entire war and I like to have them as a deterrent. If they are sunk early in the war, then the Allied player can be that much more aggressive.

Mike Solli


That's what the Japs did in RL...sort of a waste.


A fleet in being strategy has historically been superior to coming out and fighting for the smaller sized navy. In 1942 it wasn't clear yet that carriers trumped battleships.



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