What are Puresims mecahnics based on?

What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (Full Version)

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rpommier -> What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/24/2006 12:23:28 AM)
Does anyone know the basic underlying result engine Puresim uses? Is it like Dynasty League or Strat, based on Die Rolls? Or some type of formula that takes hidden ratings into account? The reason I ask is that I get some results that seem slanted toward a certain outcome. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going all Fox Mulder X-file conspiracy theory here, but it would be nice to know if I am just having some very unlucky dice rolls or if there's a formula saying that this guy will do such & such no matter what because the math fits. Know what I mean? Just wondering... Rod

SittingDuck -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/24/2006 12:54:11 AM)
Can you be more specific about the 'slanted toward a certain outcome' bit? Like an example or something.

Nukester -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/24/2006 1:18:38 AM)
If you open up the XML file that the game uses as the underlying engine, it appears that some of it is based on dice rolls. At least player creation and injuries and stuff like that. Not sure if play outcome is in there. I would think that it is. Lots of stuff like 4D4+2 in there

rpommier -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/24/2006 1:43:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nukester If you open up the XML file that the game uses as the underlying engine, it appears that some of it is based on dice rolls. At least player creation and injuries and stuff like that. Not sure if play outcome is in there. I would think that it is. Lots of stuff like 4D4+2 in there First off, I'm not on a witchhunt, I enjoy the game immensly... Now with that out of the way. I lost 3 games in a row in extra innings. 2 of those were grandslams in the 11th and 12th inning, the 3rd was because my pitchers just kept getting shelled. All this would happen after I was up in the 7th-8th innings. I just got the feeling that it was inevitable I was going to lose. Granted my 2 Ace pitchers are on the DL, it was just frustrating to lose in the last couple of innings when I was up. if it's due to dice rolls I'm cool with that. But having something like this happen because of a nameless formula concerns me. Rod

Nukester -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/24/2006 2:29:27 AM)
Who said you were on a witch hunt ? Certainly not me. I answered part of your question.

Deltadog -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/24/2006 3:12:39 AM)
I don't know how the outcome of events is determined, but I also have lost games in the last inning by homers (no grandslams). By the same token, my team has been known to come from behind in the final inning just as often or perhaps more so. At the sametime I have seen the trailing team go down in order or threaten and come up short in the last inning. (last inning has been the 9th or extra innings) I think the outcome is based on whose batting, whose pitching, what pitch is thrown and chance. (just like in real life) [:D]

rpommier -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/24/2006 3:37:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Nukester Who said you were on a witch hunt ? Certainly not me. I answered part of your question. Sorry Nukester, it wasn't exactly directed at you. Just the populace in general, you know how forums/ng can get sometimes when your intent is misconstrued. I just wanted to make it clear to anyone jumping into this thread that I'm not attacking the way Puresim works. Again I wasn't directing anything at you.. vr, Rod

rpommier -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/24/2006 3:42:22 AM)
Yeah Deltadog, that's what I'm talking about. I would feel alot more comfortable if I knew the chances of an outcome or why it failed. But then again it probably wouldn't be as fun. When I play Strat football I know the chances a play will be successful and depending on my die roll I know why that play failed, that makes that game exciting in a different manner I guess. vr,

torque561 -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/24/2006 3:44:07 AM)
When I first got the game I lost my first ten games; It just happened. I have played five seasons, finishing 2nd twice. Lost the playoffs twice and won one world series. Just the way it goes.

Nukester -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/24/2006 5:02:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rpommier quote: ORIGINAL: Nukester Who said you were on a witch hunt ? Certainly not me. I answered part of your question. Sorry Nukester, it wasn't exactly directed at you. Just the populace in general, you know how forums/ng can get sometimes when your intent is misconstrued. I just wanted to make it clear to anyone jumping into this thread that I'm not attacking the way Puresim works. Again I wasn't directing anything at you.. vr, Rod No problem :) It was the whole quoting of my post and starting your post with "first off...." that made it sound like you were giving me an attitude when all I did was point out that teh XML file consists of hundreds of "dice rolls" :) My bad.

Steely Glint -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/24/2006 5:34:23 AM)
"The results of your performance are never fully under your control. The other team may be very good on any given day, or very bad. The bounces may go your way, or they may not. Only your behavior and your approach are under your control."

Pymont -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/26/2006 12:59:34 AM)
rpommier, do you play out your games or sim them? My experience with PureSim is somewhat limited, but I've noticed that if manage the games PureSim can be brutal. I started a new association last week, ran it in unattended autoplay mode to build up history for a few seasons, and took over a team. Admittedly it was a lousy team I took, but I dumped some dead weight and signed some key free agents, so I was hoping to come out about even this first season. Right now my team has only two wins, with almost all my losses coming from rallies in the 8th inning or later. But the real source of irritation is that I have five players in my starting eight batting .111 or less, led by my shortstop--the league batting champ the previous year--who is hitting .059, IIRC. The frustration is unbelievable. So yeah, I know what you mean when you write that it feels like you're doomed to lose. I haven't lost on a grand slam yet, though, at least not in PureSim. Steely Glint, that's a great quote, and I'm certain that it applies beautifully to real baseball, but does it apply to PureSim? You're putting an awful lot of faith in a pseudo-random number generator. As an example, I was playing version 6.51 of that other baseball game a few weeks ago, and my wife asked me how the game was going. I told her that I was up by 4 runs going into the bottom of the ninth, but I was going to lose. I told her that the other team would load the bases somehow and hit a grand slam to tie it, then they would hit a solo home run in the tenth to beat me. So she watched. Error, walk, error, grand slam, then three strike outs. My team went down easily in the top of the tenth, then came the inevitable walk-off blast. I mean, come on, I'm not psychic. My wife asked me how I knew I was going to lose in exactly that way, and I told her I had enough experience with the game to intuit the way it plays out almost every single time. That made me wonder if I was playing out a script every game, or if I was dealing with a very poorly written random number generator. Or hey, maybe I am psychic. [;)] I turned it off right then, and I haven't played it since. And that's how I came to be here with you fine people. So am I carrying a bitter taste from that other game, and projecting it onto PureSim? Maybe. I hope so. I really want PureSim to be my new baseball game. I'm taking a few days away from it and then I'll try again, but right now it feels like I'm slamming my head against a wall, like I'm doomed to lose. Okay, I'm done venting. Time to go back into lurk mode.

PadresFan104 -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/26/2006 1:26:13 AM)
Been playing PS for years, and it's never felt scripted. I also support Shaun's stance to not let us see all the way under the hood, and to use hidden ratings. But I'm also the type of player that turns off the dice and card images in a game like Strat. I want to feel like I'm managing a real game, not playing with dice and cards.

akcranker -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/26/2006 1:36:58 AM)
I agree with PadresFan on supporting Shaun on not showing us everything that's under the hood of Puresim.

rpommier -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/26/2006 2:09:04 AM)
I agree with not seeing the hidden ratings. But I still would like to know what the game mechanics are based on. Die rolls against a chart for players? Are the players ratings plugged into a formula that includes the pitchers ratings and fielders position? Just the other day I lost some games when the bases got loaded and my pitcher walked in winning runs! Just want to know why it happened. Bad die rolls? vr, Rod

KG Erwin -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/26/2006 2:09:31 AM)
I'll chime in and say that the element of uncertainty (i.e., the real-life approach), is that makes this game so great. I think that Shaun has taken pains to make sure that no one can take a "gamey" approach and consistently beat the odds, only to have some dweeb come back and say the game sucks because they've figured out a way to cheat and always win. [:-] Thus, the "hidden" ratings and the fact that the code isn't transparent. I know what you're getting at, rpommier, but it's a blind alley, and you should probably let it go at that. AFAIK, the deck is NOT stacked in the AI's favor, OK? This ain't a Microsoft game. [;)]

PadresFan104 -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/26/2006 3:52:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rpommier Just the other day I lost some games when the bases got loaded and my pitcher walked in winning runs! Just want to know why it happened. Bad die rolls? Two answers to that question, though I know you want an answer from Shaun and not another user. 1) (The rational answer) Yes, it was most likely due to the combination of ratings and a bad dice roll. Also taken into consideration was the tiredness of the pitcher, and some other ratings we may never know about. Many strategy games use the concept of chance, dice rolls, etc. to determine outcomes. Just like battles in the Civilization computer game, there are odds calculated and then a random number or dice roll is used to determine the outcome. Does it matter if it's a chart or a formula? 2) (The sarcastic answer) Just this past week, Trevor Hoffman (arguably one of the best relievers in the history of the game) blew 3 saves, including the all-star game, in 7 days. Many fans wanted to know why this happened. Is he losing his touch? Is he ill? Is his arm hurt? We didn't get any answers except for "THAT'S BASEBALL!" Stuff like this happens to the best of players. Why does it happen? Well, we're human, that's why it happens. In a computer baseball game, that human element HAS to be represented at some level by random chance, with the probabilities up to the whim of the developer. So yes, bad die rolls most certainly played a part in your bad outcomes. If Shaun prefers to keep the calculations of these probabilities to himself, that's his design decision. I've played the game enough to know however, that while bad luck will bite your ass from time to time, if you are a good manager and make smart decisions, you will be able to avoid a good percentage of bad outcomes and beat the bad dice rolls. In real life, there is a comment about baseball that says all teams (except the Royals of course) are capable of winning about 60 games a season. It's the teams that have a smart manager, talented players, and that certain chemistry that are able to win those other 30 to 40 that the other teams don't. If all you do is hit <return> over and over in managed games in PureSim, you'll probably win 60 games or so. So how do you win the other 30-40 in PureSim when you are managing? Without the probabilities in front of you playing PureSim, it forces you to think like a real manager and not dwell on the simple percentages. Using your example, if I was playing Strat-O-Matic, I could pull up each of my pitcher cards and choose the pitcher who had the best statistical chance of striking the guy out or otherwise getting out of the inning. BORING!!! Where's the challenge in that?? With PureSim, I have to think like a manager. How is my pitcher doing? Is he losing MPH off of his Fastball? How does he do against righties or lefties? How does the hitter do against righties or lefties? Etc... But most importantly, I've been managing this pitcher all season and I've been watching his performance... Do I want him on the mound in this situation??? What's my gut telling me? Not once do I wonder about percentages or dice rolls. Hope this helps you understand why there probably is no simple answer to your question other than yes, while a bad dice roll certainly played a part in the outcome of the play, there were many more important factors at work than just the final dice roll. And thanks, I didn't realize how much I really loved managing games until I sat down to write this!

rpommier -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/26/2006 4:44:26 AM)
'Nuff said... Thanks for the input guys, I'm fine with it all... I just played a couple of games and guess what? I purchased the game 2wks ago I think and find myself at work thinking of roster moves, buying baseball books and really paying attention to baseball as a sport for the first time in years (I'm hardcore NFL). That is a testament to PureSim and it's immersiveness. Even with all of the questions, I'm still having a hec'uva time in my PureSim Universe. There's a freak called Larry Nance in my division that has been ripping the league since '06, I'm in '08 now. I can't wait for him to retire and his team to implode, so that my Houston Galaxy can have a run at a Wildcard at least. I feel like the Utah Jazz and Phoenix Suns teams that just ran into M. Jordan's Bulls at the wrong time! I have a pitcher Bobby Martinez that gets shelled despite having steller ratings, he was my number 1 in '06 and getting paid $10mil a year to wallow in AAA and Relief! But I dare not cut him for fear, he'll blow up on another squad! So although I may never know what makes this game tick, it has me immersed. I probably wouldn't question as many things about this game if I didn't care. Again thanks for the input. Now I'm going to get back to chasing the Larry Nance and the Lakeland Neons... Maybe he'll blow out his knee or something... Rod

Tigers Roar -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/26/2006 6:10:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PadresFan104 quote: ORIGINAL: rpommier Just the other day I lost some games when the bases got loaded and my pitcher walked in winning runs! Just want to know why it happened. Bad die rolls? Two answers to that question, though I know you want an answer from Shaun and not another user. 1) (The rational answer) Yes, it was most likely due to the combination of ratings and a bad dice roll. Also taken into consideration was the tiredness of the pitcher, and some other ratings we may never know about. Many strategy games use the concept of chance, dice rolls, etc. to determine outcomes. Just like battles in the Civilization computer game, there are odds calculated and then a random number or dice roll is used to determine the outcome. Does it matter if it's a chart or a formula? 2) (The sarcastic answer) Just this past week, Trevor Hoffman (arguably one of the best relievers in the history of the game) blew 3 saves, including the all-star game, in 7 days. Many fans wanted to know why this happened. Is he losing his touch? Is he ill? Is his arm hurt? We didn't get any answers except for "THAT'S BASEBALL!" Stuff like this happens to the best of players. Why does it happen? Well, we're human, that's why it happens. In a computer baseball game, that human element HAS to be represented at some level by random chance, with the probabilities up to the whim of the developer. So yes, bad die rolls most certainly played a part in your bad outcomes. If Shaun prefers to keep the calculations of these probabilities to himself, that's his design decision. I've played the game enough to know however, that while bad luck will bite your ass from time to time, if you are a good manager and make smart decisions, you will be able to avoid a good percentage of bad outcomes and beat the bad dice rolls. In real life, there is a comment about baseball that says all teams (except the Royals of course) are capable of winning about 60 games a season. It's the teams that have a smart manager, talented players, and that certain chemistry that are able to win those other 30 to 40 that the other teams don't. If all you do is hit <return> over and over in managed games in PureSim, you'll probably win 60 games or so. So how do you win the other 30-40 in PureSim when you are managing? Without the probabilities in front of you playing PureSim, it forces you to think like a real manager and not dwell on the simple percentages. Using your example, if I was playing Strat-O-Matic, I could pull up each of my pitcher cards and choose the pitcher who had the best statistical chance of striking the guy out or otherwise getting out of the inning. BORING!!! Where's the challenge in that?? With PureSim, I have to think like a manager. How is my pitcher doing? Is he losing MPH off of his Fastball? How does he do against righties or lefties? How does the hitter do against righties or lefties? Etc... But most importantly, I've been managing this pitcher all season and I've been watching his performance... Do I want him on the mound in this situation??? What's my gut telling me? Not once do I wonder about percentages or dice rolls. Hope this helps you understand why there probably is no simple answer to your question other than yes, while a bad dice roll certainly played a part in the outcome of the play, there were many more important factors at work than just the final dice roll. And thanks, I didn't realize how much I really loved managing games until I sat down to write this! Great post PadresFan. I too have wondered what the game engine is based on. While I don't have an overwhelming need to know the details, I would like to be assured that the outcomes are random and not scripted. That player accomplishment is the result of intelligent design within the context of a game engine that recreates accurate skills for each player. When Babe Ruth steps to the plate, is the home run he hit a result of that intelligent design that increases random chance for a home run in the Babes case, or did the AI determine he hasn't hit a home run in 15 at bats so its time to have him launch one? I have played strat-o-matic and part of the fun is to be able to evaluate the strengths and weakness by reviewing the player cards. This also gives the game player a sense of comfort to know the outcomes are random but that chances for a specific outcome are increased or decreased based on something tangible. In the case of PureSim, you just have to have faith in the game designer and that whatever he has programmed is accurately recreating the outcomes and without any scripting. Another curiosity for me is what are the ratings based on? When I see that Henie Manush has an arm rating of 35 a range factor of 35 and hands of 51 out of 100 what is that based on? Research? A guess? An estimate? Has someone looked at the actual fielding ratings for 1927 and come up with a range factor and strength of arm based on actual results in comparison to other players of his era? While I can live without answers to these questions, I would feel a lot more confident in the game if there were some design disclaimer. I would love to know to some degree, why the designer feels he has built a better mousetrap. I would appreciate some explanation on why I should put my faith in this game. There�s a neat little baseball game out there which shall remain unnamed that lays out in detail what as gone into designing the game engine and what determines the outcomes. If they can have the faith to reveal what the game results are based on, couldn�t PureSim give us at lease a little peek under the hood? That was all very long winded, and I am not being critical. I have found the game to be extremely well laid out. The screens are a joy; the ease of play is terrific, yet provides nice options. I think overall the game is a real winner for many, many reasons. A little tweaking here and there is needed on some fielding and base running results (I�m keeping a list) but that seems to be an ongoing process with all the updates being released. So in conclusion, wonderful product but my curiosity can�t help but ask what makes it tick?

PadresFan104 -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/26/2006 6:41:20 AM)
Nice post Tigers. It's up to Shaun to assure us, but I'm certain that the results aren't scripted. Same goes for the Ruth example you gave. You mention ratings for real historical players, and that's a good topic for this thread. Folks should remember that PureSim was built with fictional association in mind. Adding support for the Lahman database came later. Lahman is cool for some purposes, but falls short in others. The big area where importing from the database will NEVER reach the quality of a researched season (ala Strat, DMB, Action, etc) is defense (range, hands, etc.). It just cant be done with the data available. So we don't have to pay extra for playing for all of these players, but you have to be willing to accept the tradeoff. As for what the rest of the ratings are based on when importing historical players, I really don't know. Personally, I'm not that concerned as I prefer an alternate universe where results will be different than real life anyway. Even moreso, I tend to play with fictional players as it forces me to pay attention and not rely on what I know from history. As for that neat little game you are referring to, I thought DMB at first, but then I changed to SBS when I thought about the words "neat" and "little". I agree for season sims, both of these games are cool, and they do give more under the hood info, but they only play single seasons so I'm not as interested. As far as that list you're keeping, please share it when you get a chance, as I'm not sure how many patches we'll get before Shaun starts thinking about next year. [:)]

akcranker -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/26/2006 9:41:45 AM)
I just wanted to say this is what i love about this forum. Great discussions with great information and no flaming of other users. God I love this forum and this game!!!

scott32671 -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/26/2006 11:36:29 PM)
I totally agree with akcranker. i check these forums religiously daily, just to catch onto something i KNOW i am missing with this wonderful game, and all(or at least 98%) of the feedback is helpful and respectful, especially from the "vets" I just want to throw out a huge thank you to ALL the forum regulars and a request to keep it up. And i can't wait to see another season depiction...i enjoyed the past ones from KG and Pad!![:D]

Tigers Roar -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/27/2006 5:57:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PadresFan104 Nice post Tigers. It's up to Shaun to assure us, but I'm certain that the results aren't scripted. Same goes for the Ruth example you gave. You mention ratings for real historical players, and that's a good topic for this thread. Folks should remember that PureSim was built with fictional association in mind. Adding support for the Lahman database came later. Lahman is cool for some purposes, but falls short in others. The big area where importing from the database will NEVER reach the quality of a researched season (ala Strat, DMB, Action, etc) is defense (range, hands, etc.). It just cant be done with the data available. So we don't have to pay extra for playing for all of these players, but you have to be willing to accept the tradeoff. As for what the rest of the ratings are based on when importing historical players, I really don't know. Personally, I'm not that concerned as I prefer an alternate universe where results will be different than real life anyway. Even moreso, I tend to play with fictional players as it forces me to pay attention and not rely on what I know from history. As for that neat little game you are referring to, I thought DMB at first, but then I changed to SBS when I thought about the words "neat" and "little". I agree for season sims, both of these games are cool, and they do give more under the hood info, but they only play single seasons so I'm not as interested. As far as that list you're keeping, please share it when you get a chance, as I'm not sure how many patches we'll get before Shaun starts thinking about next year. [:)] Yes I am referring to SBS. Wasn't sure if I should give another game props in name. You are correct about the limitations, but for what it does it does it very well and the logic is based on a lot of Saber research and I can really appreciate the effort to faithfully recreate historical player performance. But then again we are coming at this from opposite directions, you enjoy an alternative universe with fictional players. My interest has always been recreating reality just to see what might have been. I really appreciate your web site by the way with the extras and add on's. The game benefits greatly from what is provided. I check the site often. How did you get involved doing that? By the way, a replay of the 1984 World Serious this year would be great! Hopefully with the same results [;)]

PadresFan104 -> RE: What are Puresims mecahnics based on? (7/27/2006 8:14:34 AM)
LOL, yes it would, but I don't think we have the pitching to get us there!!! As for the website, I've always wanted to do something to give back to the user community since I've been mooching off of others efforts for years with various other games. When I got my new MacBook Pro, I got myself some space and learned to use iWeb, which is an amazingly easy yet fairly flexible web design tool. It's been fun. As good as the current design looked to me a couple of months ago, I'm feeling like there is a way to clean it up now that it has grown so much. We'll see.... Thanks for the feedback!

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