Italy? (Full Version)

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jbunnelle -> Italy? (8/2/2006 10:45:32 PM)

Could we please have Italy on its own for this expansion, as well as distinctions for US, UK, France, etc?

Also, a change in sprites after upgrades would be great. Or hell, just the capability like HOI2DD did so the modding community can do the work. I'm not picky. [:D]



Syagrius -> RE: Italy? (8/2/2006 10:55:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbunnelle

Could we please have Italy on its own for this expansion, as well as distinctions for US, UK, France, etc?


I second that.



Marc von Martial -> RE: Italy? (8/3/2006 12:20:18 AM)

quote:

Also, a change in sprites after upgrades would be great.


This will be in, together with the ability to even expand the given upgrades with mods.



Uncle_Joe -> RE: Italy? (8/3/2006 3:18:17 AM)

Italian units are all flagged as such and disappear if Italy is conquered. They do still share the same stats as German units, but their build limitations generally prevent abuse of Italian population points to create 'full power' German units.

Honestly Italy as its own player would be excessively dull IMO. I think the current distinction is adequate and prevents the game from getting bogged down in more individual player turns.



christian brown -> RE: Italy? (8/7/2006 10:34:53 PM)

Ditto that.  The only way Italian forces can be effective is when they are combined during the same phase with the Germans (read: tanks and air power) or they canīt achieve any results.  Unless of course, retreating constantly is a desired result.



Petiloup -> RE: Italy? (8/9/2006 1:10:02 PM)


Agreed, it's like asking to play North Africa with the Italians independantly from Rommel forces. The Italians might have been inferior to their Germans counterparts but all in all they were of some use to Rommel strategy.



Heinz Guderian -> RE: Italy? (8/25/2006 9:04:59 AM)

quote:

Ditto that.  The only way Italian forces can be effective is when they are combined during the same phase with the Germans (read: tanks and air power) or they canīt achieve any results.  Unless of course, retreating constantly is a desired result.


[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

Sorry to bump this one But that gave me quite the Laugh..sorry Hahaha


However Polonthi does raise an interesting point about the italians. For the most part every cliche we hold near and dear about the italian army is pretty much spot on. Despite the (many) shortcomeings of the Italian army one of the most crippling was in its leadership. By all accounts the officer class was deficent in all aspects and had a terrible relationship with the average soldier. Good leadership with clear doctrine counts for a lot and Rommel had those qualities to spare. In most operations the germans were in the minority and Rommel made full use of his italian forces and for the most part, they preformed well.  As for the game, the less overhead the better.



Petiloup -> RE: Italy? (8/25/2006 1:06:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Heinz Guderian

However Polonthi does raise an interesting point about the italians.


Glad you agree, true enough the Italian leaders were crap and always thinking the Italians were cowards is looking at the results not at the fact that they did fight with:

1/ Bad leaders.
2/ Far from being up to date tanks, guns, planes,...

and still from time to time they did perform well would it be in North Africa or Russia.

If you read about the Folgore "Division" at

http://www.avalanchepress.com/FolgoreAtAlamein.php

you will see that with the right training and equipment Italians soldiers could do as well as their German counterpart.

So I'm more prone to judge the Generals and High Command than the Italian soldiers. It would be like putting the problems in Iraq at the GI's level.



Heinz Guderian -> RE: Italy? (8/25/2006 1:25:13 PM)

By leaders I specifically refer to Staff officers and Lower level officers, not political leadership. Officers regarded there men very poorly, a legacy of the armies virtually pre-WW1 doctrine and culture. Italy was begind the times in more than just equipment, there doctrine and attitudes reflected the same obsolesence as there gear. When fighting with and under german commanders, they tended to preform better. This problem was less prevalent in the air force and really didnt exist in the navy, being the most modern of the 3 services. Isolated examples aside however, on the whole, dont retire your, 'Want to buy an italian rifle' jokes just yet [;)]



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