RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (Full Version)

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Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/5/2006 11:20:36 PM)

Great ! [:D]
Finaly they are here !

But, why the hexgrid is sooooo black near the shores ?



YohanTM2 -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/5/2006 11:36:09 PM)

I like the new blue for rivers, stands out a bit more for us somewhat colour blind folks



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/5/2006 11:37:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The Baltic (I guess we should add the name a second time for the northern portion) and the lakes of Finland.
Lakes Lagoda and Onega need work. There is also the problem around Aland and Turku.

- There is a River hexside missing on the SW hexside of the hex where "FIN" of Finland is written (32,50).
- There is a River hexside missing on the SE hexside of the hex 33,51.
- There is a River hexside missing on the E hexside of Murmansk (Edit : This one may be because of data missing in the "Standard Map HST.CSV", I am modifying it).

There seems to miss bits of lakes on hex bits. I suppose this is because data is missing from the "Standard Map RLS.CSV" file. If you give me hint on how to fill it with the right data, I'm ready and willing to do it to save you time.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/5/2006 11:38:49 PM)

quote:

If you look closely at Lake Vattern, you can see the two colors for the river/lake outlines. I think I prefer the new one (darker blue) that Rob suggested.

Which one is the "darker" one ? the one on the north shores of Lake Vättern, or the one on south shores ?
I prefer south shore, it stants out better.
Same for rivers.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/5/2006 11:45:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

If you look closely at Lake Vattern, you can see the two colors for the river/lake outlines. I think I prefer the new one (darker blue) that Rob suggested.

Which one is the "darker" one ? the one on the north shores of Lake Vättern, or the one on south shores ?
I prefer south shore, it stants out better.
Same for rivers.


The new is darker and on the north side.

Yohan likes the new; you like the old; I prefer the new; what do the rest of the forum members think? (Please, please, please, not a perfect tie on this too).



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/5/2006 11:49:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The Baltic (I guess we should add the name a second time for the northern portion) and the lakes of Finland.
Lakes Lagoda and Onega need work. There is also the problem around Aland and Turku.

- There is a River hexside missing on the SW hexside of the hex where "FIN" of Finland is written (32,50).
- There is a River hexside missing on the SE hexside of the hex 33,51.
- There is a River hexside missing on the E hexside of Murmansk (Edit : This one may be because of data missing in the "Standard Map HST.CSV", I am modifying it).

There seems to miss bits of lakes on hex bits. I suppose this is because data is missing from the "Standard Map RLS.CSV" file. If you give me hint on how to fill it with the right data, I'm ready and willing to do it to save you time.


Patrice, please fix any data errors you find. The RLS file format is just: row, column. It indicates hexes that need river/lake bitmap overlays, but do not have any river or lake hexsides.

If you want to start making a list of errors, I would prefer it to be hex by hex.



wfzimmerman -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/5/2006 11:53:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here is a tease. The new coastal bitmaps for Scandinavia have arrived.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/78929A1D310644D7BD7D2D67611C4F85.jpg[/image]


Anyone else enjoy Alistair Maclean's BEAR ISLAND?



wfzimmerman -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/5/2006 11:54:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Last in the series. We are having a problem where the European map joins the Scandinavian map. This area received a lot of discussion in the forum and we will straigten it out. The problem is merely one of getting the graphics to look right - we already are completely decided on what the terrain features will be for game play.

We have some of the old river hexes still being drawn though the river bitmaps are in place (Dalalven). That is almost certainly a data problem.

If you look closely at Lake Vattern, you can see the two colors for the river/lake outlines. I think I prefer the new one (darker blue) that Rob suggested.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/F608B6BC3B7A4F86BE20642C570AD098.jpg[/image]


I really think it's a mistake to have the glacier hex have perfectly hexagonal sides.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 12:21:45 AM)

quote:

Patrice, please fix any data errors you find. The RLS file format is just: row, column. It indicates hexes that need river/lake bitmap overlays, but do not have any river or lake hexsides.

If you want to start making a list of errors, I would prefer it to be hex by hex.

I'll make a list of hexes that miss a bit of lake, and I'll also enter their coordinate in the RLS file, and then send you the corrected file (with the whole CSV map package).



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 12:39:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
I really think it's a mistake to have the glacier hex have perfectly hexagonal sides.


Maybe, but this is the only hex in the world like this. The other ice hexes are in large groups (not counting the ice island hex on the Norwegian coast).

All the other terrain suffers from the same effect. For example, the Forest hex to the NW of the glacier hex looks weird because it is isolated. We are just used to seeing the other terrain types and the white hex jumps out at the viewer.



Toed -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 3:52:20 AM)

The coastlines look really nice. :)

However there are a few things that jump out when I look at these maps.

1. Mälaren seems to have its old form (a 'fjord' instead of a lake).
2. Hjälmaren is missing.
3. Dalälven isn't reaching the baltic and the mouth or the river has the old style.
4. The port of Luleå should be placed adjacent to the mouth of Luleälven.



lomyrin -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 4:06:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

If you look closely at Lake Vattern, you can see the two colors for the river/lake outlines. I think I prefer the new one (darker blue) that Rob suggested.

Which one is the "darker" one ? the one on the north shores of Lake Vättern, or the one on south shores ?
I prefer south shore, it stants out better.
Same for rivers.


The new is darker and on the north side.

Yohan likes the new; you like the old; I prefer the new; what do the rest of the forum members think? (Please, please, please, not a perfect tie on this too).


I like the northern outline just a little better than the southern one. It seems a bit less interfering with other items on the map.

Lars



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 5:17:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Toed

The coastlines look really nice. :)

However there are a few things that jump out when I look at these maps.

1. Mälaren seems to have its old form (a 'fjord' instead of a lake).
2. Hjälmaren is missing.
3. Dalälven isn't reaching the baltic and the mouth or the river has the old style.
4. The port of Luleå should be placed adjacent to the mouth of Luleälven.

Thanks. It was a team effort.[&:][>:][:(][:@][:'(][:-][8|][:)]

Please be as picky as you can on these maps. We made a ton of revisions to Scandinavia and I expect it will take us several passes before we get everything cleaned up.

For right now, I want to work with the coast lines and rivers/lakes Rob has already provided and get the most we can out of them. That means fixing data mostly. But I also need to rerun the preprocessing program on the European map using the revised river/lakes overlay Rob just sent me this morning. Once Patrice and I clean up the data et al, then we'll go back to Rob with a list of hexes that need improved coastlines, rivers, and/or lakes. There should only be a few of those (less than 10), mostly in soutern Sweden and Norway.



c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 5:26:24 AM)

The look of the big lakes in Sweden are in the old format and really need an update to the graphic.
The one's posted by Patrice earlier was quite decent.




Neilster -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 7:39:51 AM)

The old river colour stands out well but looks a bit fake now. I prefer the new one. It certainly (IMHO) improves the lake outlines.

And yes, I enjoyed Bear Island.

Cheers, Neilster



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 10:32:04 PM)

Here are the revised maps with Patrice's corrections to the data and some merging on my part of the European map bitmaps with the Scandinavian map bitmaps.

This is the portion that still needs the most work. Rob did new bitmaps for hex row 36 and above (Bergen is in hexrow 36). Hexrow 37 (where the words NORWAY and SWEDEN appear) and below are exact copies of the WIF FE map.

The hexsides between these two rows have some weird artifacts: the lake hexside in the hex NOR, the river hexsides in the hexes SWEDEN. More noticeable are the strange breaks between coastal land hexes: Stavanger, Stockholm.

What needs to be done here is for Rob to redo the bitmaps for hexrows 37, 38, 39, and 40 (down to Kristiansand). Maybe also 41, to get the new outline for Vattern. That will also fix the weirdness around Aland and Turku (shown in next post).

[image]local://upfiles/16701/411362758B6C463ABA89F96791EA891F.jpg[/image]



Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 10:39:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are the revised maps with Patrice's corrections to the data and some merging on my part of the European map bitmaps with the Scandinavian map bitmaps.

This is the portion that still needs the most work. Rob did new bitmaps for hex row 36 and above (Bergen is in hexrow 36). Hexrow 37 (where the words NORWAY and SWEDEN appear) and below are exact copies of the WIF FE map.


The NE hexside in the hex 1xSE of Bergen needs to be redone. The way it looks now is that the land is connected to the hex 1xE of Bergen. The NE hexside should be all sea so the fjord is not closed.

The hexes 1xNW and 1xNE of Stavanger need to be connected by land just as Patrice drew on his map.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 10:40:36 PM)

Here is the continuation of the hexside join between hexrow 36 and 37. Viborg is in hexrow 36 (new Scandinavian map) while Helsinki and Leningrad are in hexrow 37 (European map). These look pretty good except for Turku.

There is still a problem with Lake Lagoda and Lake Onega. I think that can be fixed by coding the hexsides as lake hexsides - it's sort of dumb, the hex is next to an all lake hex, so clearly there is a lake hexside there. But computers miss such subtlies that the human eye perceives immediately.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/EFC3BC12548E411CBDF89FEA17E3074F.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 10:43:47 PM)

3rd in a series of 4. The only thing I see here is the missisng river in the south. 4 of the 5 flow into the White Sea, but one of them stops short. I think that is data missing as to river hexsides.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/63E58147C77E454FA13624EEB402709B.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 10:47:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
3rd in a series of 4. The only thing I see here is the missisng river in the south. 4 of the 5 flow into the White Sea, but one of them stops short. I think that is data missing as to river hexsides.

No this is not an error, this river does not flow into the White Sea in my Scandinavia Drawing.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 10:52:17 PM)

Last in the series. Together these cover almost all of the Scandinavia. The northern tip was ok, so yesterday's screen shot is unchanged.

The only thing I see here that needs improvement is the placement of lake names (so they do not overlie the resources).

I am thinking that the lake name should be colored to match the lake color. Also the font size for the lakes seems too large. It is too similar to the city names. Ideas?

I am not sure about the color for the river names. Clearly using the new darker river color is wrong because it would be hard to read. But the current brighter blue against dark green (i.e., forest) isn't easy to read either.

Now that the coastal hexes are all in, the placement of the port icons and the names for the ports needs to be reviewed. most of them are fine as is, but a few aren't: Trondheim, Lulea, others?

[image]local://upfiles/16701/8C66CEAC822E44E89B73FACDE8C7A088.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 11:03:58 PM)

quote:

I am thinking that the lake name should be colored to match the lake color. Also the font size for the lakes seems too large. It is too similar to the city names. Ideas?

Same color of the lakes would be to clear IMO. For the font size, these seem large because the lakes are small. For Ladoga and Great Lakes the font does not seem so large. Maybe simply small lakes (1 or 1-2 hexsides) should not have names

quote:

I am not sure about the color for the river names. Clearly using the new darker river color is wrong because it would be hard to read. But the current brighter blue against dark green (i.e., forest) isn't easy to read either.

The current blue is ok for me. IMO, reading river names is secondary. I think they are small enough as they are.

quote:

Now that the coastal hexes are all in, the placement of the port icons and the names for the ports needs to be reviewed. most of them are fine as is, but a few aren't: Trondheim, Lulea, others?

I'll make all Label position modifications when I'll have the map myself.
I intended to review all the map labels (and gather all suggestions about this too) when the playtesters and I would have received the new map too.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 11:20:07 PM)

quote:

I am thinking that the lake name should be colored to match the lake color. Also the font size for the lakes seems too large. It is too similar to the city names. Ideas?

About Lakes, maybe small lakes (1-2 hexsides) should have their names reduced in size (size 9, that is the same as Rivers), and big lakes (3-4 hexsides or more, or real lake hexes) should keep the same size (10).

Also, maybe the game should have a program routine that does not display the labels of less than size 10 if at zoom level 1-2 (both the smallest ones).

Maybe at the smallest level of zoom, all names size 10 (cities and smallest territories) should disappear, and maybe city & ports symbols should be enlarged (twice the size).



wfzimmerman -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 11:28:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
I really think it's a mistake to have the glacier hex have perfectly hexagonal sides.


Maybe, but this is the only hex in the world like this. The other ice hexes are in large groups (not counting the ice island hex on the Norwegian coast).

All the other terrain suffers from the same effect. For example, the Forest hex to the NW of the glacier hex looks weird because it is isolated. We are just used to seeing the other terrain types and the white hex jumps out at the viewer.


You could fix it by having the hex have grey mountain trim around the edges of the glacier so it would blend into its neighbors.

I realize this is a point solution, but it looks like a hole in the map as is.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 11:31:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

I am thinking that the lake name should be colored to match the lake color. Also the font size for the lakes seems too large. It is too similar to the city names. Ideas?

About Lakes, maybe small lakes (1-2 hexsides) should have their names reduced in size (size 9, that is the same as Rivers), and big lakes (3-4 hexsides or more, or real lake hexes) should keep the same size (10).

Also, maybe the game should have a program routine that does not display the labels of less than size 10 if at zoom level 1-2 (both the smallest ones).

Maybe at the smallest level of zoom, all names size 10 (cities and smallest territories) should disappear, and maybe city & ports symbols should be enlarged (twice the size).


Too many changes for my head to hold.

Using a smaller size font for smaller lakes seems good. This is all controllable by data in the NAM CSV file I believe.

As for what is shown at lower levels of zoom, I would prefer to review that later. So far I am changing how the rail lines are shown, but the rest is all proportional.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 11:32:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
I really think it's a mistake to have the glacier hex have perfectly hexagonal sides.


Maybe, but this is the only hex in the world like this. The other ice hexes are in large groups (not counting the ice island hex on the Norwegian coast).

All the other terrain suffers from the same effect. For example, the Forest hex to the NW of the glacier hex looks weird because it is isolated. We are just used to seeing the other terrain types and the white hex jumps out at the viewer.


You could fix it by having the hex have grey mountain trim around the edges of the glacier so it would blend into its neighbors.

I realize this is a point solution, but it looks like a hole in the map as is.


Special terrain depiction for 1 hex out of 70,200 on the map? No.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/6/2006 11:46:42 PM)

Patrice, you had asked about the lakes near Petsamo. They look ok to me.

[image]local://upfiles/16701/4CB135090825498987691AB94C00CB3B.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/7/2006 12:06:57 AM)

quote:

Patrice, you had asked about the lakes near Petsamo. They look ok to me.

Yes, they are ok. Must have been the combination of the level of zoom and JPG conversion.



Incy -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/7/2006 2:08:04 AM)

For the black hexsides at sea problem, it would be very nice if it would be possible to make all all-sea hexsides blue, and all all land and mixed hexides black.
This would really facilitate identification of invadable hexes, and I think it would look good too.

Incy



Incy -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (10/7/2006 2:12:45 AM)

The same arrangement would also help players figure out all-sea lake hexides. Many hexes have very ambigous graphics.
Hornavatn and Storsjön for instance are not lakes at all as drawn(by the rulebook).
I think many players would interpret them as all-lake hexides, though. But a rule lawyer would rightly argue they're not.



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