Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (Full Version)

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Sandrik -> Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/4/2006 1:32:20 PM)

Am working as fast as I can (with a wife, 3 year old and 4 month old fast is a relative term) on an update and am pretty close...

In addition to the changes below, I will likely add Irregular units which become active in key hexes if the IDF occupied and then departs key hexes. Right now there is little incentive for the IDF to garrision hexes after they are taken. That's a lot of work and will take some time...

Completed Version 2.0 Changes...

1. Corrected errors in IDF OOB. Brigade engineer companies are now indicated as being companies and not battalions.

2. Have increased the number of ATGMs in Hezbollah units. Also have added mortars and other equipment to give them more staying power.

3. There is now a very, very, very slight chance that Syria may initiate combat operations against Israel.

4. Changed Hezbollah Garrison Units to Irregular Units.

5. Three Hundred (300) VPs have been added in The Lebanon. This should give the IDF player a better chance at an actual victory and makes the Lebanon worth more than Syria (previously they were 300 VPs. in the Lebanon and 400 in Syria.).

6. Civilian unit and force profeciencies, readiness and supply have all been reduced (25, 25 and 50 respectively). That have all now been given "Independent" and "Minimize Losses" orders.

7. The tint on the Israeli Territorial Units has been changed to gray and dark blue on white.

Al



ghostdog -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/5/2006 12:49:41 AM)

I cant wait!!!



Ecthelion008 -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/5/2006 6:50:51 AM)

Shouldn't the Israeli tint be Olive?  I mean, all their vehicles and unifroms are in the unique olive.  What APCs do you intend to use to replicate those modded T-55 that the Golani Brigade uses?



Sandrik -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/5/2006 6:42:09 PM)

Traditionally (in old board games) the IDF has been in White and Blue from the Israeli Flag.

I'm going to continue to use the Bradley IFV. It may be overkill to use a Bradley to represent the Achzarit, but I think the Achzarit is better than the BMP.

Al



Ecthelion008 -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/5/2006 11:06:38 PM)

With a 25mm automatic gun and TOW missiles, the Bradleys are definitely overkill.  The Achzarit is an APC not an IFV.  So a late model BMD is more accurate IMO.



sstevens06 -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/6/2006 6:25:26 PM)

Al,

I downloaded your scenario. Couple of comments:

- Why don't you use a 2.5km/hex scale map? The map in Peter Szabo's Lebanon 82 scenario would be a great starting point.

- I would dramatically increase Israeli Precision Guided Weapons level (currently set at 20). PGM level can now vary from 0 - 999; given the very high proportion of PGMs used by the IAF I'd set it to at least 500. Of course that would have the side-effect of greatly increasing the power of IAF units - you may want to break them up into sub-units to compensate.

- I'd put the Golani brigade around Avivim in the inital set-up.


That's all for now. The scenario's a good start, especially considering the war's not even over yet...[;)]



Sandrik -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/7/2006 6:27:18 PM)

"- Why don't you use a 2.5km/hex scale map? The map in Peter Szabo's Lebanon 82 scenario would be a great starting point.'

Because I used my Christmas "War 1991" with the OOB pretty much fleshed out. Also I wanted Syria (and the Golan Heights) to be a potential player and if I recall correctly Peter's map doesn't go into Syria.

"- I would dramatically increase Israeli Precision Guided Weapons level (currently set at 20). PGM level can now vary from 0 - 999; given the very high proportion of PGMs used by the IAF I'd set it to at least 500. Of course that would have the side-effect of greatly increasing the power of IAF units - you may want to break them up into sub-units to compensate. "

Good Suggestion on the PGMs will up the IDF PGM value for 2.0 but not that much. Maybe 250 or 300?

"- I'd put the Golani brigade around Avivim in the inital set-up."

One can argue where any particular unit might be (the folks who really know aren't talking to me!!!!!!). Initially I was going to have them go into the Lebanon, but who really knows where they are. This is not to snip, but you certainly can move them if you like. Just trade out one brigade from the 36th Udga to the 162nd Udga on the Golan and move the Golani to upper Galilee.

"That's all for now. The scenario's a good start, especially considering the war's not even over yet..."

Thanks I hope you enjoy version 2.0. I should have it out to RD & The Depot today. I don't know why but The Depot hasn't posted version 1.0 yet (as of the last time I checked). So I suspect they're on vacation, so it might post on RD first?

Al

Al



Sandrik -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/8/2006 5:55:06 AM)

Just submitted version 2.0 to RD and The Depot.



Ecthelion008 -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/8/2006 6:40:47 AM)

Regarding the Precision Guided Weapons level values:

Exactly how do they affect the game?  Does anyone know the numbers?

To the best of my understanding they represent the usage of laser and satelite guided munitions.  But can they also be used to emulate the extra efficiency of modern airforces?  What value would you give to an airforce like the IDF in the Yom Kippur War.  They had no guided bombs per se but the F-4 Phantoms were absolutely deadly against Arab armor, more so than the game can currently represent.  I set the PGW value to 100 for the IDF and 50 for the Arabs... am I in the right ballpark? 



sstevens06 -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/8/2006 3:43:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ecthelion008

Regarding the Precision Guided Weapons level values:

Exactly how do they affect the game?  Does anyone know the numbers?

To the best of my understanding they represent the usage of laser and satelite guided munitions.  But can they also be used to emulate the extra efficiency of modern airforces?  What value would you give to an airforce like the IDF in the Yom Kippur War.  They had no guided bombs per se but the F-4 Phantoms were absolutely deadly against Arab armor, more so than the game can currently represent.  I set the PGW value to 100 for the IDF and 50 for the Arabs... am I in the right ballpark? 



Precision Guided Weapons level can range from 0 - 999. I believe the level represents the proportion of PGMs used by platforms with PGM-capability. In this current conflict most, if not all, ordinance dropped by the IAF has been PGMs (as it was during OIF in 2003). The effect is to increase the attack stength of PGM-capable equipment (so, given a PGW-level of 100 an aircraft with AP stength of 20 would have it's strength increased to 40 - I think that's how it works).

Btw, the F-4 Phantom, particularly the later models E, J, N, was PGM-capable. This was not reflected in the stock equipment database which came with ACoW (haven't checked yet to see if this was fixed in TOAWIII). There is anecdotal evidence the IAF used PGMs on F-4s during the last days of the 1973 War - laser- and TV-guided Mavericks I believe. The USAF definitely used PGMs in Vietnam in 1972 (laser-guided bombs IIRC).



ghostdog -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/9/2006 12:30:49 AM)

I dont see it up yet?  how long does it usually take?



*Lava* -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/9/2006 1:05:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ghostdog

I dont see it up yet? how long does it usually take?


Takes a couple of days.

It should be up at the depot before the end of the week I would imagine.

Ray (alias Lava)



Clausel -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/9/2006 1:28:55 AM)

Its on Rugged defence now.



Terminus -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/9/2006 1:34:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sstevens06

The USAF definitely used PGMs in Vietnam in 1972 (laser-guided bombs IIRC).



Actually, the USAF F-4/Paveway combination made its combat debut in Vietnam with the 8th TFW in late May 1968.



sstevens06 -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/9/2006 1:51:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: sstevens06

The USAF definitely used PGMs in Vietnam in 1972 (laser-guided bombs IIRC).



Actually, the USAF F-4/Paveway combination made its combat debut in Vietnam with the 8th TFW in late May 1968.



I didn't realize LGBs were introduced that early.

Well I checked and the F-4 Phantom II still isn't PGW-capable in the TOAWIII equipment database. This needs to change.



*Lava* -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/9/2006 4:26:06 AM)

Hi!

The first use of the LGB's by the US Navy in Vietnam saw an A-6 Intruder destroy 12 bridges on a single night bombing mission.

Ray (alias Lava)



Terminus -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/9/2006 5:01:34 PM)

Seems a bit on the high side. Got a source? Besides, the Intruder couldn't carry LGB's back then...




ghostdog -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/10/2006 2:02:09 AM)

If I remember correctly, the ability to drop LGB's on the A-6E was the TRAM nose pod, which wasnt fitted untill 1979.  And, i also seem to remember those bridges being destroyed by the USAF.  Tan Hoa Bridge, I believe was hit with Walleye II, TV guided bombs after LGBs failed to hit due to clouds.  "The Vietnamese, however, soon repaired the bridge, compelling the Navy and Air Force to fly 13 more missions against the target."  from wikipedia.  perhaps this is what your thinking.  one bridge, 13 missions.  



*Lava* -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/10/2006 4:25:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ghostdog

If I remember correctly, the ability to drop LGB's on the A-6E was the TRAM nose pod, which wasnt fitted untill 1979.


The first use of LGB's on the A-6 used a pod mounted on a weapon station I believe.

quote:


Tan Hoa Bridge


Was bombed many times.

quote:


wikipedia


[8|]

My source... I was bombardier-navigator who flew in the A-6E and TRAM for 13 years. Though I was too young for Vietnam, the folks who did regularly gave chats about their experiences. Randy Cunningham, for example, was a LCDR in my airwing on my first cruise.

Ray (alias Lava)



Terminus -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/10/2006 4:41:43 AM)

I thought the A-6 didn't get LGB capability for a long time because it's bombing system was considered so good that dumb bombs were considered enough. I know the Intruder carried LGB's into combat during Desert Storm, and maybe they were used over Libya as well?

I still don't think that an Intruder could carry multiple Paveways on one weapon station without their control surfaces or guidance gear interfering with each other. That was my "problem" with your post about the 12 bridges and the Intruder.



*Lava* -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/10/2006 5:36:53 AM)

Hi!

Well, I grant you it could have been a sea story... but.. there were literally tens of thousands of LGB's dropped during Vietnam.

The A-6 had the capacity to mount 28 weapons on five Multiple Ejection Racks (MERS). Each MER had 6 weapon stations but the two inboard wing MERS had one station that was not used due to a high probability of bomb/aircraft collision. The normal configuration of the A-6 (while I was flying) was 4 MERS and a centerline fuel tank. That gave it the ability to carry 22 500 lb Mk 82's; one per weapon station. Each MER could carry 3 1000 lb Mk 83 bombs (alternating stations). So, with Mk 83 LGB's the aircraft could carry 12 such weapons.

Because of its payload capacity the A-6 was fitted out eventually to carry just about every weapon in the US inventory. It was also the mainstay for weapons testing at China Lake.

Flying at low level with the A-6 TRAM weapons system and the FLIR weapons designation/guidance system, a skilled crew could easily have an average bullseye CEP (circular error probability).

Don't know for sure what weapons were carried by the A-6's in El Dorado Canyon, but they were almost certainly LGB's.

The Air Force, BTW, has a tendency of writing the history of US air warfare, so it's difficult to track down exactly what the Navy did unless you were there.

Ray (alias Lava)



sstevens06 -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/13/2006 3:49:07 AM)

Al,

Check out the link below for day-by-day maps of IDF operations in southern Lebanon:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/mideast_war_2006.html

(scroll down to the "The War Day by Day:" section).




Sandrik -> RE: Israel's WoT Version 2.0 (8/20/2006 6:42:05 PM)

Any feedback on the revised scenario?  I had the Syrians come in when I wasn't ready and their long range SSM's decimated the IAF before I could react.  BTW, If you take on Syria, I suggest using your Airmobile/Paratroop Brigades in hit and run strikes against the Syrian SSM's.  The IDF has proven they don't mind deep penetration raids in the Bekaa, I'd bet they'd go in in a big way if Syrian SSM's were hitting their airfields and cities!!!!

Al



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