RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (Full Version)

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AmiralLaurent -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 12:00:35 PM)

At least 15-20% of any aircraft type never saw combat, being used for training or lost before the unit was operationnal, so a target number of 10 000 Hellcats in the period considered seems OK to me.

IMOO the F6F production should be increased a bit and as Tabpub said had least half of the F6F5N redirected to normal model.



tabpub -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 12:44:18 PM)

Ok, well it's late (early) here; so to recapitulate I would think that merging the "night fighter" replacement rate into the regular F6F replacement rate would get the dayfighter replacement rate to a more correct level and reducing the nightfighter replacement to something on the order of 30-50 would be more sensible.

Though, I wouldn't discount the Marine NF groups entirely; they should be carrier capable and they could at least be assigned to carriers with empty slots and be used for daylight CAP at the very least, freeing up regular fighter units for the escort job in an emergency situation.

Though, I will reiterate, that the naval air really cannot be expected to perform to real-life levels without the prior attrition of the IJN/IJAAF groups by land based air forces. Only they have the frames and bodies to grind down the enemy over a long period. In RL, it was the Solomons/PNG that broke them; in the game, it could be elsewhere and might have to be. It is up to the Allied player to force the issue and find a place to engage that the IJ player feels they MUST fight for versus LBA. If it's not in one place, go elsewhere; if it's not the Solomons, then move on Eastern DEI, or Malaya, I dunno anymore. We need some more statistics from some other games before anyone can say for certain whether something is merely slightly off or grossly off. I mean some would say that it is off in my June 43 game where I have over 10 divisions prepped and ready to jump off for various locations across the Pacific, with 2000 Army pilots in the pool ready to replace losses and 1000 B24D there also and 500 Corsairs for the 1000 Marine pilots and 200 NZ pilots....different circumstances make for different POV's.

The only real constant is the fact that every single game goes differently right from Day 1; that, and it would be nice to have somewhat consistent numbers for the units/planes/ships involved; most are pretty right, but some are still a bit off; that is correct as we are agreeing.



Honda -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 1:46:35 PM)

So, if USN pilot pool and Hellcat replacement rate seem too low for the Allies maybe that will make players more carefull in planing and operating USN operations. And I really don't see how a Jap player fighting on both fronts can inflict serios losses to USN...
P.S.
Were any Hellcats used in ETO?



aztez -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 1:56:52 PM)

The funny thing about all of these discussions are that allied side are restricted to historical production and The Japanese can grow their production in the game. That is the "problem" where these are all coming from. [;)]

Definately those Hellcat numbers in Andy's game just don't sound right. Someone said that he should have had PDU's ON so he could have downgraded some of them. I seriously doubt that is the solution. Some fighter replacement numbers need to tweaked.

The best solution would be to make Japanese similiar to allies. No production tweaking than and problem solved. Maybe in Witp2 if it will ever be published. (Propably not)



pauk -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 2:34:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: aztez

The funny thing about all of these discussions are that allied side are restricted to historical production and The Japanese can grow their production in the game. That is the "problem" where these are all coming from. [;)]

Definately those Hellcat numbers in Andy's game just don't sound right. Someone said that he should have had PDU's ON so he could have downgraded some of them. I seriously doubt that is the solution. Some fighter replacement numbers need to tweaked.

The best solution would be to make Japanese similiar to allies. No production tweaking than and problem solved. Maybe in Witp2 if it will ever be published. (Propably not)


Can't say that i agree here 100%. While you and others are right that Allied are limited to the historical level and Japan can produce more fighters than it was possible, it seems that we all sometimes forget one fact (i stated that more than once).

This is not 100% historical simulation because devs started from the one premise (and that was clearly stated long time ago from officials, IIRC):

#1. Japan is allowed to do limited changes in their war industry to simulate that Japan could turn their production to the total war production

#2. Allies are already on total war production and these numbers represent that (are these numbers are 100 % correct that's another story)

Lots of Allied players forgeting one thing - #1. is only allowed if Japan capture oilfields and resources intact (if their production is only halved just he needed 2 million of supply to repair them - and this will take a looooooong time).

I should say that quite a lot players don't play attention on that strategic point of war (early in the game) and they are suprised (i can understand that) when they found that Japan is much more stronger than it should be in RL - but, their own actions caused this, IMHO.

I do have ideas how to prevent #1. but hey, didn't you expect that JFB would give you advices for free-[:'(][;)]...

Before someone jumps in and state that USA would increase certain types of planes and stop older types/versions or changed bomber production to fighter production i will say:

You are right. I'm more than sure that would happend and i agree with you guys.

But, do make yourself a favor: consider scen 15 as scenario 17 (IIRC) in UV where no one complained about that unhistorical scenario.

My suggestion would be that if devs really think that total historical OOB should be included in the game that they fix what they found is incorrect (and take away from Japan capability to interfere in war production, of course) and name that as official stock scenario but at the same time leave current official scenario and move them in another slot so we can play game as it now.....



Andy Mac -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 3:34:43 PM)

Ah ok I misunderstood are you saying F6F day fighter should be 288 and night fighter lower at 30 - 50 then we are in violent agreemt

I am moving all of my Nightfighter Sqns toward the fleet as we speak but at lease 2 are actually on Night Cap as I am afraid of a massive night kamikaze raid.

The other 2 are at Rabaul heading north the rendevous with the fleet

quote:

ORIGINAL: tabpub

Ok, well it's late (early) here; so to recapitulate I would think that merging the "night fighter" replacement rate into the regular F6F replacement rate would get the dayfighter replacement rate to a more correct level and reducing the nightfighter replacement to something on the order of 30-50 would be more sensible.

Though, I wouldn't discount the Marine NF groups entirely; they should be carrier capable and they could at least be assigned to carriers with empty slots and be used for daylight CAP at the very least, freeing up regular fighter units for the escort job in an emergency situation.

Though, I will reiterate, that the naval air really cannot be expected to perform to real-life levels without the prior attrition of the IJN/IJAAF groups by land based air forces. Only they have the frames and bodies to grind down the enemy over a long period. In RL, it was the Solomons/PNG that broke them; in the game, it could be elsewhere and might have to be. It is up to the Allied player to force the issue and find a place to engage that the IJ player feels they MUST fight for versus LBA. If it's not in one place, go elsewhere; if it's not the Solomons, then move on Eastern DEI, or Malaya, I dunno anymore. We need some more statistics from some other games before anyone can say for certain whether something is merely slightly off or grossly off. I mean some would say that it is off in my June 43 game where I have over 10 divisions prepped and ready to jump off for various locations across the Pacific, with 2000 Army pilots in the pool ready to replace losses and 1000 B24D there also and 500 Corsairs for the 1000 Marine pilots and 200 NZ pilots....different circumstances make for different POV's.

The only real constant is the fact that every single game goes differently right from Day 1; that, and it would be nice to have somewhat consistent numbers for the units/planes/ships involved; most are pretty right, but some are still a bit off; that is correct as we are agreeing.




Tom Hunter -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 4:04:34 PM)

Hi,

In answer to the "will you come back" question, no. Though I do feel this is a playable game that can be fun for a lot of people one of the things that makes any historical wargame fun for me is realism and WITP does not have what I consider to be realistic combat.

I've written long analytical posts about this, and so have others, so I will summarize my position by saying that the naval and air combat models only work well if certain mixes and numbers of ships and aircraft are present. Deviate from those mixes and you can get totally a-historical results. If you understand how the engines work then you can use this knowledge to wreck your opponent, and if you don't understand them then you can do things that makes sense given the historical record but which will not work in the game. That wrecked it for me.

Of course if niether player understands what is going on (which I suspect is fairly common) then you can play an enjoyable game. I tend to be very analytical, I would probabley enjoy WitP much more if I were not.

If my memory is correct I wrote long posts about managing aircraft pools in a way that allowed me to gain air parity Vs. Mogami in the latter part of 1942, and gave the Alllies air superiority in Fear and Loathing, and me air superiority in my second game Vs. Blackwatch as well.

Needless to say if I feel that I can gut the Japanese airforce by early 43 then I am not going to believe that the Japanese are too strong. My opinion is that a good Japanese player can slow this process some, and gain large numbers of VP while the program is taking effect, but I do not see any Japanese player ever stopping a reasonably competent Allied player from destroying thier airforce if they play more or less the way I did.

Of course it takes a bloody minded attitude to take the kind of casualties I did Vs. Mogami but the trend was unmistakable by the time I quit the game.



aztez -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 4:15:38 PM)

Too bad we are not going to see any of your games than Tom.

However I think CHS or NIK mod could get you excited since those air to air combat models are totally diffrent than stock.




spence -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 6:35:04 PM)

Though no one repair shipyard is as large as San Francisco Japans shipyard capacity as measured in ship repair points is considerably larger than the US/Allies. Japan is also allowed to increase its capacity though I don't know how feasible that is. That doesn't seem right...though the US gets no repair ability on the East coast in the game. I've never seen a British withdrawal come back so I don't know if they repair off board. Is perhaps Japan's ability to repair shipping overstated or is US ability understated significantly?





Apollo11 -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 6:46:24 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda

Were any Hellcats used in ETO?


Yes... British used them...


Leo "Apollo11"



Nikademus -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 7:03:02 PM)

The Japanese are never too powerful when I'm in command. I have passed RRoberson as the Carrier Carrion Crasher.




Speedysteve -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 7:14:43 PM)

Soon to be exemplified again



Nikademus -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 7:18:24 PM)

only if i get turns, unlikely from blowupdollcentral.com

[:'(]



Speedysteve -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 7:24:56 PM)

You'll get a 'turn'....once a week.....inbetween 'turns' with the blow up errrr GF Mk1

You suck



Nikademus -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 7:47:07 PM)

well hell, should do 3 day turns then L O S E R tea drinkin poofie.



pauk -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 7:50:36 PM)

what? Nik, you are still playing against this LOSER?!



bradfordkay -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 8:35:57 PM)

"Were any Hellcats used in ETO?"

Not just by the Brits... I know that there were at least a couple of carrier based squadrons involved in the southern France landings (and maybe the Normandy landings, though I'm not so sure about that). Flight Journal's F6F special had an article about them.



Nikademus -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 8:44:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk

what? Nik, you are still playing against this LOSER?!


reletive term given frequency i get turns. I also sink his carriers constantly. Not even a challenge anymore.



pauk -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 8:51:10 PM)

[:D]... loser, loser....[:D]




RETIRED -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 8:51:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Though no one repair shipyard is as large as San Francisco Japans shipyard capacity as measured in ship repair points is considerably larger than the US/Allies. Japan is also allowed to increase its capacity though I don't know how feasible that is. That doesn't seem right...though the US gets no repair ability on the East coast in the game. I've never seen a British withdrawal come back so I don't know if they repair off board. Is perhaps Japan's ability to repair shipping overstated or is US ability understated significantly?


I notice no-one has replied to your observation..., so I think you can safely say that yes, the Allies are getting "hosed" once again. But everyone overlooks the biggest single advantage the Japanese Player has in this game. He is the Japanese PLAYER..., period. No constant clashing and in-fighting between the IJN and the IJA..., he is in charge of a single well-oiled war machine. If the game were historically accurate, there would be 2 Japanese players, and they would have different and mutually exclusive "victory conditions". Then there COULD actually be a Japanese "winner"..., whichever Service achieved the most "victory points" while the Allies were reducing the Japanese to rubble. I wonder if they will consider that if WITP 2 ever gets rolling.



Monter_Trismegistos -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 8:53:58 PM)

Yeah I agree. IJN and IJA had ALMOST as different objectives as USN and USArmy.



Speedysteve -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 8:54:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk

[:D]... loser, loser....[:D]



Sissy



Speedysteve -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 8:54:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk

what? Nik, you are still playing against this LOSER?!


reletive term given frequency i get turns. I also sink his carriers constantly. Not even a challenge anymore.


Weiner



mdiehl -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 8:54:44 PM)

quote:

USN pilot xp when thepool is empty should be at a floor of 50xp not 30 to reflect trained pilots from the Army or Marines being transferred in and given flight deck training in this way the Japanese still get a benefit from attriting thre USN pool (less 70xp pilots) but the USN does not go into the fight with 30xp pilots


The problem here is that there is no way to tease out the relationship between "EXP" and real world ability. The EXP seems to be set arbitrarily. So what does 30 EXP represent?

In the old GGPW and UV a 30 EXP pilot is dreck. Based on their likely fates and (lack of) success in those games, a 30 EXP pilot would not have been available in a USN, USMC, or USAAF squadron anywhere. These guys would have been reassigned to infantry (if Army pilot trainees) or Marine Corps infantry (if Navy or Marine Corps pilot trainees). Guys basically flight qualified but inexpert at aerial maneuver or gunnery (exp 50?) would have been bomber, recon, or service pilots. (That should not be taken as a knock against service pilots. It takes a whole different kind of mindest and skill to fly a B-17 straight and level straight at 'em and in formation through flak and fighters, or to take a Black Cat PBY5 or B25 down to the deck through intense auto AAA to drop your torp or bomb into a Japanese ship or your parafrags onto a Japanese runway.. or to fly that Dakota through crap so that your Paratroopers can drop near their assigend zone... and then nurse the crippled beastie that your aircraft may have become back to base.)

IMO the base value for USN pilot EXP should be 80, and 70 for USMC pilots and US Army pilots. US training programs were generally superior to (although not as labor intensive as) Japanse training program with respect to unit formations, tactics, doctrine, training, and in the case of the USN and USMC advanced training. And some US Army units could with enough training dramatically outfight Axis units despite the Axis units' combat experience (for ex the Red Tails).




pauk -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 8:56:23 PM)



ok... in my game against Andy (you may find it in AAR section) all American battleships from PH are ready for service at the start of the 43... and he is using them.

1. PH attack 95% is too inefficient
2. Ship repairs are too fast for both sides.....



Andy Mac -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 9:10:31 PM)

um not true 2 are still on west coast in dry dock after 12 months admittedly just about out of it but still



spence -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 9:35:00 PM)

quote:

ok... in my game against Andy (you may find it in AAR section) all American battleships from PH are ready for service at the start of the 43... and he is using them.

1. PH attack 95% is too inefficient
2. Ship repairs are too fast for both sides.....


quote:

um not true 2 are still on west coast in dry dock after 12 months admittedly just about out of it but still


Historically about right...3: maryland, Pennsylvania and Tennessee back in action by Jue 42, 1: Nevada by early 43, and 2: West Virginia and California by early-mid 44.
(Plus 1 sunk: Arizona and one deemed not worth repair: Oklahoma)



tsimmonds -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 9:48:38 PM)

West Virginia and California could have been back in service perhaps a year earlier; they were also extensively modernized.



spence -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 10:13:05 PM)

quote:

#1. Japan is allowed to do limited changes in their war industry to simulate that Japan could turn their production to the total war production


The Japanese military runs the country for 10 years or so, starts a war which they don't win (against China), decide the only way to win that one is start another one with the rest of the world, and then and only then decide to ramp up the economy to full war production?  Huh?

Seems to me they started the war with the West just to keep what was already going going.  Little enough production was available for conversion to a war footing in 1941...significant expansion was beyond their capability though they could tweak things a bit.



BlackVoid -> RE: Are the Japanese now TOO powerful?? (8/8/2006 10:24:48 PM)

With PDU on the japanese are stronger than historical. As Allied, do you want a challenging game, a walkover or a reproduction of history? Decide, and find an opponent who is willing to agree with you on mod/settings/rules, etc.. Or play as you want against the AI. There are also tons of mods. If you want more historical japanese capabilities, just play the stock game with PDU off. Lots and lots of choices.

BTW, you will not see historical results, no matter what.

I don't understand what is the big deal. [&:]



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